Aller au contenu

Photo

No classes I feel like playing anymore...


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
197 réponses à ce sujet

#51
lv12medic

lv12medic
  • Members
  • 1 796 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

That would certainly make their advertising pretty wierd. As relhart said, I think the presence of a swordstaff is a decent indication that something along those lines is probably viable, if not actively supported (which I tend to find a lot funnier than the other way around)


CGI advertising is always weird. Though it'll probably be viable, I'm probably going to do a challenge for it but I don't see any support for it (I've asked a few times if there was support for it) and anybody who does it will most likely be picking up all defensive spells.


Well, also going off of CGI advertisements, shapeshifting in DA:O would be instantaneous and the spider form would have the overwhelm ability.  (Sacred Ashes trailer)

Anyways, personally I like stricter distinctions between classes.  I don't even bother playing with Arcane Warrior specs because they just feel so... wierd.  You play the game as a mage being squishy and lobbing spell bombs everywhere, and then all of a sudden you become an M1 Abrams tank fighting off a bunch of people with Nerf bats.

#52
Ziggeh

Ziggeh
  • Members
  • 4 360 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Yeah, but choosing an unplayable role as your poster boy? That almost sounds like trolling.


It's not unplayable. If you're a mage and you have an enemy in your face, you switch to the fighting style of the trailer (though probably less awesome and less effective, just like how (the) Warden / Sten / Leliana / Morrigan were less effective ingame than the trailer).

True, true, I suppose the point of it was the dramatic shift from melee to magic, rather than melee being his default style.

#53
Revan312

Revan312
  • Members
  • 1 515 messages

lv12medic wrote...

Well, also going off of CGI advertisements, shapeshifting in DA:O would be instantaneous and the spider form would have the overwhelm ability.  (Sacred Ashes trailer)


With a simple mod, shapeshifting is instantanious (I know, doesn't count) and with master shapeshifter the spider form does have overwhelm, no mod needed..

Modifié par Revan312, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:23 .


#54
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

Ryllen Laerth Kriel
  • Members
  • 3 001 messages
So...sword/staves...hmm. So a mage can use a hybrid weapon that combines the cutting power of a sword with the range of a staff but would turn their noses up at picking up a regular sword and learning how to fight with it? It could lead to humorous scenerios. Picture a scene like the prison break from DA:O. The PC is a mage, naked in a cage, escapes and comes across a guard weapon room:



PC: *browsing weapons and armor* Hmm, no...no, not that one...no, that one would unbalance the game for mages if I picked it up. No...another person said mages can't use swords, I really need a longer handle for some reason. *shrugs* Well, I'm just going to leave all these weapons behind and the armor too, afterall, it's better to continue running around naked and unarmed then to take a chance using a weapon I might not be as familiar with...

#55
Helena Tylena

Helena Tylena
  • Members
  • 1 237 messages

Revan312 wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

Well, also going off of CGI advertisements, shapeshifting in DA:O would be instantaneous and the spider form would have the overwhelm ability.  (Sacred Ashes trailer)


With a simple mod, shapeshifting is instantanious (I know, doesn't count) and with master shapeshifter the spider form does have overwhelm, no mod needed..


Having a player-made mod to make a game feature useful and fun is... meh. Not an ideal position.

#56
Revan312

Revan312
  • Members
  • 1 515 messages

Helena Tylena wrote...

Having a player-made mod to make a game feature useful and fun is... meh. Not an ideal position.


I don't think it's meh, it's the community coming up with a fix to a problem.. I see that as wicked.. I'd much rather have the option to mod it out and get more enjoyment out of it than no option at all.

I agree, it's not ideal, but I'm sure as heck glad it's available.

#57
lv12medic

lv12medic
  • Members
  • 1 796 messages

Revan312 wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

Well, also going off of CGI advertisements, shapeshifting in DA:O would be instantaneous and the spider form would have the overwhelm ability.  (Sacred Ashes trailer)


With a simple mod, shapeshifting is instantanious (I know, doesn't count)
and with master shapeshifter the spider form does have overwhelm, no mod needed..


Heh... As you can see I never got that far with that specialization.  :whistle:

#58
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

Revan312 wrote...

If you want to wait 1000 years to deal out the damage needed to kill everything.. AW is unkillable essentially but lacks dps so badly it's a chore to fight things with that build..


Dunno WHAT you're talking about here.  My Arcane Warrior was doing about 100 damage on non-crit attacks, +28 some fire damage and 15 some lightning damage and 15 frost damage with 3 grandmaster runes  (I think the weapon I was using had 3 slots--but I may have slapped a grandmaster hale rune in one of them.)  Even at his best Sten wasn't even close in DPS, and he was using a two-hander.  The only issue I ever had with my AW was that she'd miss sometimes due to only having a medium attack, and I'd just have Wynne throw Heroic Offense on her to fix that issue.

And, I mean, that's just coasting, with no haste on or anything.

I think the main reason why AW was overpowered was that they put in mage talents to supplement melee and then made them stack with armor and stuff.  If Rock Armor and Arcane Defense did NOT STACK with worn armor/shield, it would have made a big difference.  As it was, the two layered on top of each other made a properly-built AW invincible because they had twice as much defense and armor as anyone else.

Having designed game systems on my own in the past, I will tell you that stacking is the #1 biggest issue you will run across with the game-breaking stuff.  Once you let two abilities that both raise an important statistic stack, if you don't plan for people to absolutely max out both of them, you will wind up with a game-breaking combo.

Some games handle this problem with diminishing returns (World of Warcraft), where the more you stack the less benefit you get.  Some handle it with disallowing stacking and making you WORK to find the stuff that will let you stack it up to the point of being useful (Dungeons and Dragons online).

Personally, I don't care much about balance in a single-player game--it's not like you're going up against other people and things need to be "fair".  I mean, if you really want to make the game "fair", you can just make the result of combat be a coin toss.  

But if you want people to be actually able to get benefits out of messing around with their build/tactics/etc., what you do is make it so that different builds have benefits dependent upon *how* you like to play the game, and this is the area where DA:O lacked the worst--largely because there were so few "how" options.  I tried different stuff, I really did, but I found that basically there was only one thing to do--get in there, do damage.  Either throw down crowd control (early game) or boost your armor and defense until you're not taking damage.  Rinse, repeat.  There was no real glass cannon option.  (You could be glass if you wanted, but the "cannon" part was missing.)  No real pull-a-few-at-a-time option.  No real hit-and-run option.  No real just-sneak-past-them option.  No real snipe-from-a-distance option.

So, I find it annoying that people come in here and complain that there should be further restrictions on HOW you play the game (i.e. you shouldn't be ALLOWED to use any tactics other than the ones I think are "non-cheating") because that's ultimately the only fix for the "broken" problem.  (Not that the OP did this, but I've seen several people say things along these lines.

As for the I want melee mage with sword issue--whatever.  I want to be able to jump, fly, and swim, but I doubt this game will offer a true Z-axis like that.  I want to be able to play a halberd-wielding fighter.  Too bad.  Rogue really, really didn't appeal to me in DA:O until I tried it, then it became my favorite class.  C'est la vie.  If you focus on the things you're NOT getting, yeah, you won't want to try out any of the things you ARE getting.

#59
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

Ryllen Laerth Kriel
  • Members
  • 3 001 messages
Kind of like the community coming to fix pickpocketing for rogues and dog's fetch bug amongst other things...though those weren't in the SA trailer. I'm still waiting for Leliana's teleportation ability and to be able to backflip thirty feet to safety or the sword that can cut through dragon skin like butter. No...wait, I don't want those in my game!

#60
Wulfram

Wulfram
  • Members
  • 18 950 messages
So far, I'm happy with what I've heard and seen about mages.



Don't like the show off rogue or the rangeless warrior though.

#61
Jarek_Cousland

Jarek_Cousland
  • Members
  • 1 092 messages

filaminstrel wrote...

I wouldn't mind a warrior ability/spec like what Steiner does in FFIX, where if a mage is in the party he can use elemental-enchanted attacks that draw from the mage's power. Which would be in keeping with their idea of having more cross class "combo" moves.





That actually sounds incredibly cool.


But FF9 was incredibly cool, so its good all 'round B)



EDIT: And the cocky rogue is just BAWSE, its as it should be.

Modifié par Jarek_Cousland, 10 novembre 2010 - 10:54 .


#62
FieryDove

FieryDove
  • Members
  • 2 637 messages

PsychoBlonde wrote...

As for the I want melee mage with sword issue--whatever.  I want to be able to jump, fly, and swim, but I doubt this game will offer a true Z-axis like that.  I want to be able to play a halberd-wielding fighter.  Too bad.  Rogue really, really didn't appeal to me in DA:O until I tried it, then it became my favorite class.  C'est la vie.  If you focus on the things you're NOT getting, yeah, you won't want to try out any of the things you ARE getting.


You make a point but a counter point can be also made. Halberd's and swim/fly/jump were not in DAO.

What things are replacing dw and archery for warriors? Perhaps nothing? We don't know yet I supopose.

I know many people made AW as tank mages and in most games tankmage = bad. I made my mages AW mainly for looks. Most wore medium/heavy armor because it looked good. I could not do the Wynne looking robes and hats. I do not care if they all had +100 to all stats...

It's all about choices and variety. Replayability too while we are at it. But that's just my opinion.

#63
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages
I am kind of concerned that in making the classes more "distinct", they will also be more restrictive. Just a hunch though. Can`t back it up with anything.

#64
Maria Caliban

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Dunno WHAT you're talking about here.  My Arcane Warrior was doing about 100 damage on non-crit attacks, +28 some fire damage and 15 some lightning damage and 15 frost damage with 3 grandmaster runes  (I think the weapon I was using had 3 slots--but I may have slapped a grandmaster hale rune in one of them.)  Even at his best Sten wasn't even close in DPS, and he was using a two-hander.  The only issue I ever had with my AW was that she'd miss sometimes due to only having a medium attack, and I'd just have Wynne throw Heroic Offense on her to fix that issue.

And, I mean, that's just coasting, with no haste on or anything.

I think the main reason why AW was overpowered was that they put in mage talents to supplement melee and then made them stack with armor and stuff.  If Rock Armor and Arcane Defense did NOT STACK with worn armor/shield, it would have made a big difference.  As it was, the two layered on top of each other made a properly-built AW invincible because they had twice as much defense and armor as anyone else.

Having designed game systems on my own in the past, I will tell you that stacking is the #1 biggest issue you will run across with the game-breaking stuff.  Once you let two abilities that both raise an important statistic stack, if you don't plan for people to absolutely max out both of them, you will wind up with a game-breaking combo.


...And if you listened closely when the north wind blew, you could hear her howl of outrage carried for miles.

#65
Revan312

Revan312
  • Members
  • 1 515 messages

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

If you want to wait 1000 years to deal out the damage needed to kill everything.. AW is unkillable essentially but lacks dps so badly it's a chore to fight things with that build..


Dunno WHAT you're talking about here.  My Arcane Warrior was doing about 100 damage on non-crit attacks, +28 some fire damage and 15 some lightning damage and 15 frost damage with 3 grandmaster runes  (I think the weapon I was using had 3 slots--but I may have slapped a grandmaster hale rune in one of them.)  Even at his best Sten wasn't even close in DPS, and he was using a two-hander.  The only issue I ever had with my AW was that she'd miss sometimes due to only having a medium attack, and I'd just have Wynne throw Heroic Offense on her to fix that issue.

And, I mean, that's just coasting, with no haste on or anything.

I think the main reason why AW was overpowered was that they put in mage talents to supplement melee and then made them stack with armor and stuff.  If Rock Armor and Arcane Defense did NOT STACK with worn armor/shield, it would have made a big difference.  As it was, the two layered on top of each other made a properly-built AW invincible because they had twice as much defense and armor as anyone else.


100 damage, every 3 attacks as you miss the other two, I was talking about soloing, with a group AW is as I said, pointless as your just an auto attack turret.. Might as well roll full blood mage and actually do something other than swing, miss, swing, miss, swing, hit..

AW was painfully slow on nightmare, solo, just painfully slow, I've done the build about 10 different ways and although you are nigh invincible, your dps is at the bottom. It takes ages to kill mobs off with auto attacks and a fireball here or there costs twice as much as normal.  Maybe I was missing the illusive one spell that took your damage to massive heights, but I never found it.  Most of the passives that could up your melee dps (haste etc) drained mana fast and so halfway through the fight you lose your toggles and now your just a gimped mage with no mana in heavy plate swinging a sword at the speed of your grandmother..

Of all the mage builds I made, Blood mage shapeshifter was by far the best to solo with. You had the constitution of a god and when your health got low from casting, you could off toggle blood magic, heal, transform into the swarm, bolt away without damage, untransform and retoggle BM. rinse and repeat. AW was casting whatever you could at the mob and then waiting 5 days to watch the mob get cut down ever so slowly..

So if anything in DA:O was overpowered, imo, Blood magic was it..

Modifié par Revan312, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:03 .


#66
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

Revan312 wrote...

100 damage, every 3 attacks as you miss the other two, I was talking about soloing, with a group AW is as I said, pointless as your just an auto attack turret.. Might as well roll full blood mage and actually do something other than swing, miss, swing, miss, swing, hit..


That's not how I played, because I actually had the brains to turn off my modes between battles and wear an armor and shield combo that left me at -5.3% fatigue.  So I could hop into battle and cast out a full load of spells, THEN go melee-mode and chew through anything that was left (not much).  At that point all the fighters were out of stamina, anyway, so they were basically "auto-attack turrets" as well.

I don't bother to "solo" because I only keep companions around for the interesting things they say.  They're welcome to do whatever damage they can, but I ignore them in combat apart from throwing them healz if they're doing badly.

I liked AW this way, but I play on the PC so slow and deliberate doesn't bother me.  Also--I wasn't missing more than 1 attack out of 5 even against bosses, and there were ways to fix that, so whatever.

Of course, 2-weapon rogue was a lot of fun too. :D  Never finished the game with a warrior, probably because I had 2 of the NPC warriors in my party at all times and I was tired of them.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:20 .


#67
Morroian

Morroian
  • Members
  • 6 396 messages

Rawgrim wrote...

I am kind of concerned that in making the classes more "distinct", they will also be more restrictive. Just a hunch though. Can`t back it up with anything.


Not just a hunch from all the information released to date they are more restrictive. As I said the answer was to create more specialisations but they don't appear to have done that. Something to work on for DA3.

#68
Morroian

Morroian
  • Members
  • 6 396 messages

Revan312 wrote...

Just having combat magic on sets your fatigue to an insanly high number, stack on armor and it's even higher..  Unless you keep CM off until after you've debilitated the enemies, then turn it on and rush in, about two spells drains you to the bottom, if you do wait to turn it on, it will take a while to get there, turning it on and all, by then the enemies are unparalyzed etc. Plus the shield in AW drains mana a ton, so if your mana is low you'll run out quickly and be left as a mage with a sword, no mana and no passives..


So pick your equipment right. Using Evons The Great Mail and the Chasind Great Maul or Nug Crusher I had a large enough mana pool for at least 6-7 spells.

The one AW spell I didn't put on unless I absolutely needed it was Shimmering Shield.

#69
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

Morroian wrote...

So pick your equipment right. Using Evons The Great Mail and the Chasind Great Maul or Nug Crusher I had a large enough mana pool for at least 6-7 spells.

The one AW spell I didn't put on unless I absolutely needed it was Shimmering Shield.


Yeah, Shimmering Shield was balls, in my 2nd AW build I didn't even bother to pick it up, I never needed it.  I personally used Wade's Superior Dragonscale Armor (the light version)--all 3 pieces of that together gave you so much neg fatigue that you could easily use a heavy shield and still be well negative.  Combat magic let you wear the armor/shield/sword whether it was on or off, so why turn it on until you're actually planning to hit something?

Addendum:  Actually, I think the Medium version of the S.D.A. actually gave enough neg fatigue that you could still do this, but I thought the weird pointy Madonna boobs on the heavy armor was so ugly that the extra armor wasn't worth it to me.  Granted the Opera Singer Viking Breastplate look on the light armor wasn't fantastic either, but it was Least Awful.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:32 .


#70
errant_knight

errant_knight
  • Members
  • 8 256 messages
My favorite class, S&S warrior seems to be basically the same, although I regret not having the options to pick up a bow when it's handy. I may or may not play a mage. I don't care for the added melee option--too much like a magical side arm for my tastes, but I'm assuming that if one doesn't want to do that, one doesn't have to, so that's still open. Never much cared for playing rogues or 2H warriors, so no difference there, either. Really, the only change that really affects my personal play, is the inability to equipe the whole party for archery when strategically advisable.

#71
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

errant_knight wrote...

My favorite class, S&S warrior seems to be basically the same . . .


So someone wielding a sword and mace would be an S&M warrior?

ZING!! Thank you ladies and gentlemen, I'll be here much longer than you really wanted.

#72
Aermas

Aermas
  • Members
  • 2 474 messages

PsychoBlonde wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

My favorite class, S&S warrior seems to be basically the same . . .


So someone wielding a sword and mace would be an S&M warrior?

ZING!! Thank you ladies and gentlemen, I'll be here much longer than you really wanted.




So would T&A be a Trident & Axe?

Twin maces would be M&Ms?

#73
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

Aermas wrote...

So would T&A be a Trident & Axe?

Twin maces would be M&Ms?


No joke piking!

#74
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

filaminstrel wrote..

I wouldn't mind a warrior ability/spec like what Steiner does in FFIX, where if a mage is in the party he can use elemental-enchanted attacks that draw from the mage's power. Which would be in keeping with their idea of having more cross class "combo" moves.


I'm pretty sure this feature is confirmed, like you said, with the cross class combo.

#75
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Revan312 wrote..

And that quote is the reason gaming is becoming simplified, rehash, sequel pumping garbage.. Not that I'm saying DA2 is going to be like that, but that's my feelings about gaming in general..

"Streamlining", "defining", "balance through removal" in most cases are just excuses to make the game simpler and more accesable to people with attention spans the length of a nat's.

My favorite fantasy game ever was Ultima Online because you could have any build with the restriction being that of 7 maxed skills.. You can balance a game, make each skill/class feel unique and still have the choices wide open.


Right, one of those.

Posted Image