77 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
you even said it yourself, a vangaurd should be only useing charrge, so how are you "playing along." youve been playing along since the first time you put the ME2 disc in your xbox. shockwave wasnt added to the vangaurd to stunt its growth. its only dead wieght when you play hardcore and insanity, which that in itself is the exact reason why your vangaurd would be alot better then biowares vangaurd. because you wont have to waste those precsiouse 3 points on an ability you will never ever use.

theres no need for any ammo powers, if on every occasion you consider bringing along a squadmate to supply the ability. "most shotguns" as in the ones you probably never use? thats why you have a pistol and an SMG, to take care of what the shotgun cant do.

i dont know why im trying to convince you of something you already know.

Oh, you misunderstood what I meant when I said I would play along.  I meant I would play along with the idea of the thread and give some thought to changes I'd like to see.

As for my Vanguard being "better," without Shockwave, I think that we can agree it would more effective, at least on higher difficulty levels.  But I was operating under the assumption that this thread wasn't about designing an overpowered super class.

[The Spamming Troll]

ah sorry homey. sometimes its easy to missunderstand.

anyways i just want you to post "your" vangaurd, and youll see its not overpowered at all. its simply just a vanguard, that belongs to you. as an example ill post "my" vangaurd......

10 points in charge
10 points in stasis
10 points in reave
1 point in warp ammo
10 points in cryo ammo
10 points in class

....does that look at all like an overpowered super class to you? or does it just look like a vanguard?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 12 novembre 2010 - 04:34 .

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

ah sorry homey. sometimes its easy to missunderstand.

anyways i just want you to post "your" vangaurd, and youll see its not overpowered at all. its simply just a vanguard, that belongs to you. as an example ill post "my" vangaurd......

10 points in charge
10 points in stasis
10 points in reave
1 point in warp ammo
10 points in cryo ammo
10 points in class

....does that look at all like an overpowered super class to you? or does it just look like a vanguard?

Some would argue that it's at least bordering on overpowered.  Unfettered access to a skill as powerful as Cryo Ammo is my main point of contention.  And I'm not sure what to do with Reave.  I hope that if it appears in ME3 it will have been substantially rebalanced.

[The Spamming Troll]

actually i consider stasis to be the best ability on the vanguard i posted. i even think inferno ammo is somewhat similar to cryo ammo too. its really all player preference, and i really enjoy that. i guess theres alot of abilities that can be considered OP, it just depends who you ask.

if were still imagining possabilites here, my next playthrough maybe id try the pull/warp and inferno/disruptor vangaurd. i just feel like an option like this allows for alot more variety and discusion. i dont think theres a gold standard build with an option like this, like there was for some ME1 classes.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 12 novembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Water Dumple]

Different design for engineer, assuming this is all within ME2's design and nothing changed:

-Combat Drone
-Overload
-Incinerate
-Tech armor (Disruption ammunition if only one class skill)
-Flashbang
-1 point AI Hacking

For training, if there were more LMG-style assault rifles, I would go with that. But without that sort of thing, shotguns would work better.

[ashwind]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

ah sorry homey. sometimes its easy to missunderstand.

anyways i just want you to post "your" vangaurd, and youll see its not overpowered at all. its simply just a vanguard, that belongs to you. as an example ill post "my" vangaurd......

10 points in charge
10 points in stasis
10 points in reave
1 point in warp ammo
10 points in cryo ammo
10 points in class

....does that look at all like an overpowered super class to you? or does it just look like a vanguard?

Dont think that is overpowered - convenient perhaps but not overpower. I think it greatly depends on your play style. If your Vanguard charges 99% of the time, then Stasis and Reave are only used on certain (limited) situations.

I use Stasis rarely, Area Reave when Harby is surrounded by 3+ goons and other times it is just charge so even with the above skill set, it will not affect my Vanguard much becaues my Vanguard charge mostly everything just for the thrill if nothing else.

IMO, the truly overpower class is a class with Assault Armor and Heavy Charge. :devil:

[Miss Yuna of Atlanta]

If I were to make a custom class(a practice of which I'm not fond), I would attempt to make a tech-based equivalent to the Vanguard, with powers like Tech Armor and Incinerate as well as a unique attack that would stun in close quarters, akin to a tech-based, short-range Stasis.

Modifié par Miss Yuna of Atlanta, 12 novembre 2010 - 10:10 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Well since this is about our preferred builds, then yeah, the only change to Vanguard would be switching out Shockwave for Throw or Warp. And maybe Incineration Ammo for Warp Ammo.

For Soldier I'd do this:
Adrenaline Rush
Flashbang Grenade
Inferno Grenade
"Cryo Grenade"
Concussive Shot
Passive

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Ammo actually being powers, I'd much prefer if they were upgradable for weapons like in the first game. Instead, I think grenades should be exclusive to Soldiers since they're suppose to be masters of weapons. Cryo Grenade would work out similarly to Cryo Blast, having a large range of effect, but only working on enemies who have lost their defenses. 

[jwalker]

lazuli wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
isnt every cooldown prohibitive?

To a degree, yes.  If a Vanguard wants to be using Charge frequently, supplemental powers should have short cooldowns.  Certain players have found Slam and Pull effective in this regard.  One guideline that came up was that powers with cooldowns equal to or longer than Charge were prohibitive.

That said, I'd rather have Warp than Shockwave on my Vanguard, though that's more of a problem with Shockwave than the Vanguard itself.

the only problem i have with the 'stock' vanguard is shockwave requirement for pull. i take slam as bonus power, when i have enough skill points i use pull  and as bonus stasis, just for teh lulz with scions

[The Spamming Troll]

whats the point of having prerequisites for powers anyways? i dont understand why i have to put three points into shockwave in order to unlock pull. shepard doesnt have a method of training in order to learn a power, its just a game mechanic bioware put in.....for what reason?



princelionhaert, i like that soldier build. its a good idea having all the grenade on a soldier. probably alot more enjoyable to play that way too. id think grenades should be available to all classes, but i think the heavy weapons should be for soldiers only. why does my adept know how to use a heavy weapon, but isnt capable in handleing an AR insteead of an SMG?

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

whats the point of having prerequisites for powers anyways? i dont understand why i have to put three points into shockwave in order to unlock pull. shepard doesnt have a method of training in order to learn a power, its just a game mechanic bioware put in.....for what reason?

It's a balancing mechanism.  It's not anything new, either.  Games have been doing this for years.

[The Spamming Troll]

balancing shmalancing. i really hate that word. it balances having to waste 3 points? what exactly is being balanced by having to invest in throw to unlock lift? i dont get it. there has to be a legit reason, other then just saying "its for balanceing." ...when its not balancing anything.

i hope were not trying to base our games in 2010 off games made for the NES. or even worse, baseing games nowadays off the game MAGIC. i heard someone say that once, and it blew my mind.

i can see investing in basic throw to unlock advanced throw, but what does learning lift, have anything to do with learning throw?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 13 novembre 2010 - 12:34 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i can see investing in basic throw to unlock advanced throw, but what does learning lift, have anything to do with learning throw?

So that you have to make a choice between getting both Inferno and Cryo Ammo, or just Inferno Ammo with Area Pull. If you have both Squad Cryo and Area Pull, that's a pretty significant amount of CC powers available to you compared to other classes, which would make the Vanguard unbalanced.

If you really want Area Pull, you going to have to learn how to use Shockwave effectively in conjuntion the other powers you have. People either make a build according their taste, or learn to adapt in the face of restrictions. These restrictions are not arbitrary, they are there to encourage creativity and inventiveness. If there are no restrictions, then there will no motivation to solve problems in the game.

[The Spamming Troll]

i dont agree with that. that doesnt seem like a reason, it seems like an excuse.

choice? theres no choice in any class. havent you noticed this forum is filled with "bring back niftu cal" threads instead of "help me build my engineer" threads. every class is stale and filled with roadblocks. you dont have to post your vanguards stats because i know your vanguard looks EXACTLY like mine. the only variety the classes allow for are bonus weapons and bonus abilities.

im mad right now.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[RGFrog]

Seeing as how Charge is the vanguard's bread and butter, I'd think setting up powers that support that ability's weakness would be best.

For instance, on the rare occaision that your charge doesn't end with a kill, would you rather use area warp or area throw to clear your immediate area of targets?

Also, I know warp bombs are fun, but wouldn't it make more sense for a Vanguard to have a full on shockwave to initially knock a target out of cover, etc. prior to a charge?

I always envisioned the vanguard as a do it yourself kind of class, so ammo powers would need to be those that pretty much only benefited the player. Say like inferno ammo to strip and shock prior to a charge. Or cryo ammo to freeze a target prior to a charge that shatters it. But never squad. A vanguard, IMO, would only have team mates along because he/she was ordered to have them but wouldn't pay any attention to them in vanguard's berserker style of combat.

[The Spamming Troll]

i never thought about it that way but thats brilliant. the vanguard SHOULD have abilities that have some synergy to charge. itd be nice to use a shockwave to knock enemies out of cover, then immediately charge, but that 6 second cooldown doesnt allow for such gameplay. global cooldowns sortof suck because you cant combo abilities.



but i like the thought RGFrog.

[Kronner]

I'd like this Vanguard:

10 Heavy Charge - bread and butter ability
10 Champion/Destroyer
10 Inferno Ammo - always on, except against geth (then I bring Zaeed)
10 Heavy Slam - setting up instant Warp bombs, love the animation
10 Heavy Barrier - against the few unchargeable enemies, no need for cover=higher damage output
1 Stasis - fun CC ability

Loadout: Claymore + Locust + Predator

original Vanguard skills I don't want: Pull, Shockwave, Cryo Ammo

==

and this custom Sentinel:
10 Assault Armor - invincible tank
10 Guardian
10 Warp Ammo - good ammo power, no need to take squadmate with squad ammo anymore
10 Heavy Throw - way too much fun
10 Neural Shockwave - best anti-organic ability
1 Stasis - fun CC ability

Loadout: Eviscerator + Locust + Predator

original Sentinel skills I don't want: Warp, Overload, Cryo

==

custom Adept
10 Singualrity - ultimate CC (combined with Stasis)
10 Bastion/Nemesis
10 Pull Field - extremely effective, great for Throw combos
10 Heavy Throw - great combo with Pull, loads of fun
10 Enhanced Stasis - combined with Singularity == ultimate CC
1 Barrier - oh crap button

Loadout: Mattock + Tempest + Predator

original Adept skills I don't want: Warp, Shockwave

==

custom Infiltrator
10 Assassination Cloak - obvious
10 Agent
10 squad Cryo Ammo - imho this is the best ammo type for this Infiltator
10 Neural Shockwave - best anti-organic ability in the game
6 AI Hacking - great anti-synthetic skill
3 Geth Shield Boost - omfg button

Loadout: Shotgun (GPS or Evi) + Viper + Tempest + Predator

original Infiltrator skills I don't want: Disruptor Ammo, Incinerate

Modifié par Kronner, 13 novembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i never thought about it that way but thats brilliant. the vanguard SHOULD have abilities that have some synergy to charge. itd be nice to use a shockwave to knock enemies out of cover, then immediately charge, but that 6 second cooldown doesnt allow for such gameplay. global cooldowns sortof suck because you cant combo abilities.

but i like the thought RGFrog.

I've said this many times before: You can use Shockwave to knock enemies out of cover (strip defenses if you like) and Charge. Shep just can't do this on his/her own, but that's what teammates are for.

It would be an entirely different matter if ME wasn't a squad based game. This is, in fact, a lousy discussion due to not taking squadies into consideration - you're a team, not a one (wo)man army, use them!

[The Spamming Troll]

Kronner wrote...

I'd like this Vanguard:

10 Heavy Charge - bread and butter ability
10 Champion/Destroyer
10 Inferno Ammo - always on, except against geth (then I bring Zaeed)
10 Heavy Slam - setting up instant Warp bombs, love the animation
10 Heavy Barrier - against the few unchargeable enemies, no need for cover=higher damage output
1 Stasis - fun CC ability

Loadout: Claymore + Locust + Predator

original Vanguard skills I don't want: Pull, Shockwave, Cryo Ammo

==

and this custom Sentinel:
10 Assault Armor - invincible tank
10 Guardian
10 Warp Ammo - good ammo power, no need to take squadmate with squad ammo anymore
10 Heavy Throw - way too much fun
10 Neural Shockwave - best anti-organic ability
1 Stasis - fun CC ability

Loadout: Eviscerator + Locust + Predator

original Sentinel skills I don't want: Warp, Overload, Cryo

==

custom Adept
10 Singualrity - ultimate CC (combined with Stasis)
10 Bastion/Nemesis
10 Pull Field - extremely effective, great for Throw combos
10 Heavy Throw - great combo with Pull, loads of fun
10 Enhanced Stasis - combined with Singularity == ultimate CC
1 Barrier - oh crap button

Loadout: Mattock + Tempest + Predator

original Adept skills I don't want: Warp, Shockwave

==

custom Infiltrator
10 Assassination Cloak - obvious
10 Agent
10 squad Cryo Ammo - imho this is the best ammo type for this Infiltator
10 Neural Shockwave - best anti-organic ability in the game
6 AI Hacking - great anti-synthetic skill
3 Geth Shield Boost - omfg button

Loadout: Shotgun (GPS or Evi) + Viper + Tempest + Predator

original Infiltrator skills I don't want: Disruptor Ammo, Incinerate

this is why i think options like this would be a good idea for ME2. alot of people are under the impresion that theres going to be only one way to make a class becasue theres a select few abilities we all consider OP. even tho we might argue alot i got alot of faith in kronners judgment about how and what to use on a character, and even he doesnt consider using cryo ammo on the vangaurd, any sortof debuff on a sentinel, or even warp on an adept. i dont consider his builds to be OP at all. i consider them to be builds i might try on my next playthrough.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i
never thought about it that way but thats brilliant. the vanguard
SHOULD have abilities that have some synergy to charge. itd be nice to
use a shockwave to knock enemies out of cover, then immediately charge,
but that 6 second cooldown doesnt allow for such gameplay. global
cooldowns sortof suck because you cant combo abilities.

but i like the thought RGFrog.

I've
said this many times before: You can use Shockwave to knock enemies out
of cover (strip defenses if you like) and Charge. Shep just can't do
this on his/her own, but that's what teammates are for.

It would
be an entirely different matter if ME wasn't a squad based game. This
is, in fact, a lousy discussion due to not taking squadies into
consideration - you're a team, not a one (wo)man army, use them!

youve probably had to say it before becasue not alot of people agree with you lord bozo. i wouldnt consider ME being so much a squad BASED game at all(its more of a shepard-based game). ive argued ME is more of a cover based shooter, and some people disagree and say they dont even use cover. its all up to the player playing the game. but to me it mostly seems like squadmates sole purpose is to extend shepards own abilities. theres no need for shepard to have ANY powers if you consider on every occasion to just use your squadmates. ive heard it all before. "if i want warp ammo, bring jakc. if i want pull, bring jacob." i just dont rely on that because its not how i play the game. i think you, in fact, have a lousy imagination.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 13 novembre 2010 - 12:28 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Bioware chose to add squadies to support Shep whenever (s)he needs help and for story telling purposes, but that's a entirely different matter = a fact.

Bioware designed 6 different classes, all with their own strengths and weaknesses = a fact

Bioware changed the cooldown system (global / teammate) = a fact

Thus if one likes to setup fast combos they'll need squadmates for help, no matter what (super) build anyone can come up with, it ain't possible to do such a thing on your own. If you want to discuss such combos you cannot do so ignoring squadmates. Therefore it's pointless to look at what Shepard can do him/herself. Why for example do you want Warp on a Vanguard? Vanguards shine in Charging not casting; a VG can Pull an enemy, use squadmates' Warp to detonate while Charging into the warp explosions as it happens. What more do you want?

I'm not against a little customization, but a game build around a class system should be about specialists not one man armies. The builds Kronner posted are very nice, but his Vanguard, Adept, Infiltrator and Sentinel are still specialists and they will need some help (squadies). He only swapped powers to fit his specialist's role better; like dropping Cryo Blast for Neural Shock (which is a better CC power, but it doesn't change the Sentinel's playstyle much). In the end I know Kronner would still be Charging everything (Vanguard); and will still be assaulting enemy positions (Sentinel) etc. That's something entirely different than playing a caster Vanguard. His Vanguard is very powerful in CQC but weak in long range engagements (like the default VG); Sentinel idem.

[NICKjnp]

I've played a caster vanguard before. I take Grunt, Jack, Zaeed, or Garrus for their squad version of ammo powers. The bonus weapon I take is Assault Rifle: Mattock.

1 Incendiary ammo

0 Cryo ammo

10 Heavy Charge

10 Heavy Shockwave

10 Pull Field

10 Champion

10 Area Reave



On a stasis vanguard I still can play it as a caster.

10 Inferno ammo

0 Cryo ammo

10 Heavy Charge

10 Heavy Shockwave

10 Pull Field

10 Champion

1 Stasis

Bonus weapon is an Assault Rifle...I don't like the claymore.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Bioware chose to add squadies to support Shep whenever (s)he needs help and for story telling purposes, but that's a entirely different matter = a fact.
Bioware designed 6 different classes, all with their own strengths and weaknesses = a fact
Bioware changed the cooldown system (global / teammate) = a fact
Thus if one likes to setup fast combos they'll need squadmates for help, no matter what (super) build anyone can come up with, it ain't possible to do such a thing on your own. If you want to discuss such combos you cannot do so ignoring squadmates. Therefore it's pointless to look at what Shepard can do him/herself. Why for example do you want Warp on a Vanguard? Vanguards shine in Charging not casting; a VG can Pull an enemy, use squadmates' Warp to detonate while Charging into the warp explosions as it happens. What more do you want?
I'm not against a little customization, but a game build around a class system should be about specialists not one man armies. The builds Kronner posted are very nice, but his Vanguard, Adept, Infiltrator and Sentinel are still specialists and they will need some help (squadies). He only swapped powers to fit his specialist's role better; like dropping Cryo Blast for Neural Shock (which is a better CC power, but it doesn't change the Sentinel's playstyle much). In the end I know Kronner would still be Charging everything (Vanguard); and will still be assaulting enemy positions (Sentinel) etc. That's something entirely different than playing a caster Vanguard. His Vanguard is very powerful in CQC but weak in long range engagements (like the default VG); Sentinel idem.

snow is white = fact.

i disagree with everything you wrote there. your theory on useing squadmates abilities has a tiny little hole in it. as long as miranda or thane are in my group i can use their warp. as long as jack is in my group i can use warp ammo. as long as your moms in my group i can.........itd never be as perfect as your making it out to be. not even close. i mean really your questioning adding warp to a class that has pull.

why do i want warp on a vangaurd? becasue i want to warp explode my pulls! duh. i dont want to bring thane and miranda with me every single mission. and what if i want warp ammo on my biotic, should i add a 3rd squaddie?

vangaurds arent all chargeaholics. even i dont like the way the classes are setup, but i still understand that a vangaurd can do more then just charge. whats the point of having anything other then charge for a vangaurd then???  i dont get your arguemnt here. i really never get any of your arguments.

and wahts your point about the one man army thing? where has a one man army been brought up?

*edit: snow is sometimes yellow.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[TheBestClass]

Yeah, having to invest points in one skill to unlock another isn't so bad, it's just that having to invest points into a useless skill to gain access to a good skill is what's really unbalanced here. 
Why can't they just design all the powers to all be useful in their own right? I'm not just talking about on normal difficulty either.  If that proves to be too much of a challenge, then get rid of the prerequisite thing. At least get rid of it for those who chose to play on higher difficulties where powers like shockwave are really underwhelming.
You can't just throw a crappy skill on a class and make me have to invest points in it to get something decent and call that "balance." That's just making the game more unbalanced and limits the room for different builds.

[Tony Gunslinger]

 @Mr. Troll,



If there was a game that lets you play either Superman, Batman, or Green Lantern, I’ll bet you’d be the person who would make a Batman that can fly and uses an energy ring.

[The Spamming Troll]

how do you get that impression? a pull/warp vanguard is crossing the line? that doesnt make sense to you? you do realize the ME1 vanguard had pull(lift) and warp too right? please, divulge me. id love to hear an explanation for that analogy. if i was superman, i wouldnt need a baterang or an energy ring. im friggin superman.

what do you tell all those people that modded their game becasue they wanted "more?" im asking for the same thing, but without the need for modding.

get a clue.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 14 novembre 2010 - 12:42 .