117 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...
Bioware really should just have put a critically injured Shepard in a coma or something if they really wanted to move the story ahead two years like that.

It was coma. It was clinical & legal death. Shepard did not really die.

There are statements to the contrary in the game...

There are statements in support of it in the game.

Both kinds of statemems come from not enough medically/scientifically educated people. And as such can't be taken other than as uninformed opinions or figures of speech.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 novembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[TuringPoint]

We know his heart was not beating. There was extensive cellular breakdown. That's a bit more than a coma.

But at the same time, it sort of was a coma. His brain was clearly intact enough that he kept most or all of his memories. Shepard coming back to consciousness is about as much of a miracle as someone recovering from a coma, after the technical issue of physically putting him back together is done.

I would say: Limitless budget for technology, a very talented science and research team, and a lot of luck brought Shepard back to life.  

I would say, if this were taken as a "real life event," it would be one of those miracles.  Regardless of religious beliefs, miracles exist in some form.

Modifié par Alocormin, 14 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[string3r]

I think i have found the answer:

Modifié par string3r, 14 novembre 2010 - 07:48 .

[schneeland]

Well, this whole resurrection thing is pretty much nonsense, but I guess what bothers most people is that it is actually useless nonsense in contrast to other nonsense (mass effect fields) that is actually useful and solves a common problem (FTL travel).



So, as noted a number of times before: BW could have given us a more believable story with the same effect (i.e. healing/reconstructing inside Cerberus).

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...
Bioware really should just have put a critically injured Shepard in a coma or something if they really wanted to move the story ahead two years like that.

It was coma. It was clinical & legal death. Shepard did not really die.

There are statements to the contrary in the game...

There are statements in support of it in the game.

Both kinds of statemems come from not enough medically/scientifically educated people. And as such can't be taken other than as uninformed opinions or figures of speech.

The physical descriptions of Shep in a state that is obviously far beyond "a coma" are fairly clear. 

But I suppose if one thinks that Shep somehow made it back to the wreckage of the Normandy, made it to the Mako, and made planetfall in the Mako, despite all that's shown to the contrary in the game (see also, the clear shot of Shep hitting the upper atmosphere), then one could reach all sorts of fantastical conclusions and consider them quite reasonable...

[Killjoy Cutter]

schneeland wrote...

Well, this whole resurrection thing is pretty much nonsense, but I guess what bothers most people is that it is actually useless nonsense in contrast to other nonsense (mass effect fields) that is actually useful and solves a common problem (FTL travel).

So, as noted a number of times before: BW could have given us a more believable story with the same effect (i.e. healing/reconstructing inside Cerberus).

Oh, you're quite right, it is useless nonsense.  

It's even more useless pretending, as some do, that one's pet hypothesis of something else happening in the game is what actually happened. 

[Inverness Moon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...
Bioware really should just have put a critically injured Shepard in a coma or something if they really wanted to move the story ahead two years like that.

It was coma. It was clinical & legal death. Shepard did not really die.

There are statements to the contrary in the game...

There are statements in support of it in the game.

Both kinds of statemems come from not enough medically/scientifically educated people. And as such can't be taken other than as uninformed opinions or figures of speech.

Maybe you missed the part where Jacob described Shepard as something akin to ground beef when he was brought in.

Hell, even the intro videos show damage far beyond damage that would only put you in a coma.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There are statements in support of it in the game.

Both kinds of statemems come from not enough medically/scientifically educated people. And as such can't be taken other than as uninformed opinions or figures of speech.

Maybe you missed the part where Jacob described Shepard as something akin to ground beef when he was brought in.

Hell, even the intro videos show damage far beyond damage that would only put you in a coma.

The ground beef thing could easily have been an exaggeration. Also, the "damage" could easily be explained by Shepard's body being frozen. I'm of the opinion that Shepard did, in fact, die, but it is by no means beyond the shadow of a doubt.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There are statements in support of it in the game.

Both kinds of statemems come from not enough medically/scientifically educated people. And as such can't be taken other than as uninformed opinions or figures of speech.

Maybe you missed the part where Jacob described Shepard as something akin to ground beef when he was brought in.

Hell, even the intro videos show damage far beyond damage that would only put you in a coma.

The ground beef thing could easily have been an exaggeration. Also, the "damage" could easily be explained by Shepard's body being frozen. I'm of the opinion that Shepard did, in fact, die, but it is by no means beyond the shadow of a doubt.

The level of "being frozen" that would cause the sort of damage shown in the opening "rrebuild" sequence of ME2 doesn't put someone in a coma, it kills them.

[ADLegend21]

Alot of things in mass effect are impossible the whole basis of the series is impossible. impossible stuff happens.

[Archereon]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Alot of things in mass effect are impossible the whole basis of the series is impossible. impossible stuff happens.

Eezo is not what Tvtropes refers to as a Green Rock, a sort of material that will do whatever the hell the plot wants it to.  It has clear and consistent rules that the setting abides by, and has yet to become a technobabble term...


For clarity, THIS would be a technobabble term, one that doesn't use science in any form, including that of the setting.
"Oh, the presence of eezo interacting with airborne neutrinos emitted from the nearby cyclitron has caused our shield processor matricies to become unstable!"

Unlike Shepard's ressurection, which, in universe, would require a literal miracle to work... Or, of course, the awe inspiring power of a writer on board.

[Killjoy Cutter]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Alot of things in mass effect are impossible the whole basis of the series is impossible. impossible stuff happens.

From the standpoint of a reader, critic, and sporatic amateur writer of science fiction, that argument is one of the most infuriating "arguments" I come across.  

Including a particular, deliberate "impossible" aspect in a setting does not immediately open the floodgates and make all oddness and strangeness and silliness acceptable.  In a "speculative fiction" setting, there are what are sometimes called "conceits".  In the Mass Effect setting, the one deliberate conceit is in the name -- element zero / dark energy / THE MASS EFFECT.  It allows for all the "unreal" elements -- FTL, artificial / contra-gravity, biotics, etc. 

It becomes obvious when they twist that conceit, or go outside of it to cram in other "classic" pulp sci-fi elements, and most often it doesn't work nearly as well as when they stick to their core concepts and keep the setting tight and consistent.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[008Zulu]

I accept that they could rebuild his body, but I sure would like to know just how they repaired the damage to his brain. All medical science states that once the brain dies, thats it. No sense of self remains or exists. If you did manage to somehow recover, it wouldn't be you anymore but someone else. Does the Alliance keep up to date high resolution neural mapped brain images on file, if so, for what purpose? Each image would be multiple terrabytes in size, multiplied by the billions of servicemen. Now while in the future that kind of storage wouldnt be impossible, the cost of building and maintaining such a network would be astronomical.

[Dean_the_Young]

Or, we could go 'future advances in medicine', and accept it with the same regard we do for Mass Effect fields and the bastardization of interstellar strategic concerns the game gives us.

[TuringPoint]

I still say, "luck" is a big part of it - as it is with all other near death experiences.

Let's establish what sort of technology would be required.

They would need Shepard's brain physically intact - even if he is beyond a coma. It appears to be from everything we've seen. Jacob says, "Meat and tubes," implying there was some sort of mechanical circulation going on.

They would need some way to counteract cellular breakdown before Shepard's body was thawed. They would not do a mechanical upload of his memories, because they want Shepard as he was.

We see that he is frozen at the beginning. They would have to maintain circulation as the cells were salvaged in some way. The cellular breakdown would be due to ice crystals and atmospheric entry, and we know Shepard's helmet was intact, so his brain just suffered from ice damage. This would require nano tech of some sort to solve.

After getting Shepard's own circulatory system activated, they would have living cells. Perhaps it would just be some basic part of his nervous system, and his heart. They might build the rest through regrowth technology, which would be based on the body's ability to do so, and perhaps mechanical augmentation would help get that started.

So, considering that it is just fiction, and the nature of Shepard being a legend of sorts, doing all sorts of impossible things, it's not that bad.

Modifié par Alocormin, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:20 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Another interesting element that I'm not sure has already been said but lets say they can repair his body then they still have the mind/memory repair issue then... how exactly do you reinfuse a soul?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Another interesting element that I'm not sure has already been said but lets say they can repair his body then they still have the mind/memory repair issue then... how exactly do you reinfuse a soul?

I'd say that "souls" don't matter in this particular setting, but given what we've seen, I figure that we're going to get "souls by another name" as an outright element at some point. 

[Iakus]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

From the standpoint of a reader, critic, and sporatic amateur writer of science fiction, that argument is one of the most infuriating "arguments" I come across.  

Including a particular, deliberate "impossible" aspect in a setting does not immediately open the floodgates and make all oddness and strangeness and silliness acceptable.  In a "speculative fiction" setting, there are what are sometimes called "conceits".  In the Mass Effect setting, the one deliberate conceit is in the name -- element zero / dark energy / THE MASS EFFECT.  It allows for all the "unreal" elements -- FTL, artificial / contra-gravity, biotics, etc. 

It becomes obvious when they twist that conceit, or go outside of it to cram in other "classic" pulp sci-fi elements, and most often it doesn't work nearly as well as when they stick to their core concepts and keep the setting tight and consistent.

Indeed.  Mass Effect fields and eezo, the whole new branch of science discovered with the discovery of Prothean tech, are pretty much the "science fictiony" portion of the series.  Everything else (well, besides the startlingly humanoid aliens) seems to be pretty much based on "what we know" sf. 

Which is why the Lazarus Project makes no sense.  yes medicine and genetics have advanced, but not that far. Certain corrective gene therapies are possible.  The human lifespan has been extended  to about 150 years.  Medigel is around as a short-term cure-all.  But rebuilding someone that thoroughly killed is just way out there.

Calling something "science fiction" does not grant a writer cart blanche to just make up new magical technologies to supply an answer when the story is backed  into a corner.  Internal consistency is a must.

This is why I'm hoping for a future DLC that will provide some sort of in-game answer that will make sense and be consistent with both the Mass Effect universe and the story they chose to go with. 

Modifié par iakus, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:25 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

iakus wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

From the standpoint of a reader, critic, and sporatic amateur writer of science fiction, that argument is one of the most infuriating "arguments" I come across.  

Including a particular, deliberate "impossible" aspect in a setting does not immediately open the floodgates and make all oddness and strangeness and silliness acceptable.  In a "speculative fiction" setting, there are what are sometimes called "conceits".  In the Mass Effect setting, the one deliberate conceit is in the name -- element zero / dark energy / THE MASS EFFECT.  It allows for all the "unreal" elements -- FTL, artificial / contra-gravity, biotics, etc. 

It becomes obvious when they twist that conceit, or go outside of it to cram in other "classic" pulp sci-fi elements, and most often it doesn't work nearly as well as when they stick to their core concepts and keep the setting tight and consistent.

Indeed.  Mass Effect fields and eezo, the whole new branch of science discovered with the discovery of Prothean tech, are pretty much the "science fictiony" portion of the series.  Everything else (well, besides the startlingly humanoid aliens) seems to be pretty much based on "what we know" sf. 

Which is why the Lazarus Project makes no sense.  yes medicine and genetics have advanced, but not that far. Certain corrective gene therapies are possible.  The human lifespan has been extended  to about 150 years.  Medigel is around as a short-term cure-all.  But rebuilding someone that thoroughly killed is just way out there.

Calling something "science fiction" does not grant a writer cart blanche to just make up new magical technologies to supply an answer when the story is backed  into a corner.  Internal consistency is a must.

That's where, say, Star Trek goes so wrong -- what people refer to as "technobabble" -- introduce a problem, then throw lots of compound words at it..

[Jagri]

Well one shouldn't discount a organization that funds research projects without any moral boundries or regulations to hold them in check. The german **** party for example made quite a few technology strives in the field of medicine, weapons, and vehicles. To this very day in the year 2010 most our current technology is still based around the concepts and designs they innovated.

Modifié par Jagri, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[Iakus]

Jagri wrote...

Well one shouldn't discount a organization that funds research projects without any moral boundries or regulations to hold them in check. The german **** party for example made quite a few technology strives in the field of medicine, weapons, and vehicles. To this very day in the year 2010 most our current technology is still based around the concepts and designs they innovated.

If Cerberus had managed to create this technology on their own, I'd very much have liked to hear more about it.  "Cellular regeneration?  Nothing a few hundred vorcha vivisections couldn't figure out!"  Restoring the brain and memories would be a bit trickier, but if Bioware could dream up a way to make it possible, I would have loved to hear it.

Heck it might have added a bit more of the "morally grey" stuff to working with Cerberus if we did get to hear about this, if Shep somehow discovered questionable methods used to bring him/her back to life.  Not to mention questions about just how human Shep might still be.

[TuringPoint]

I would say the technology required is more realistically something which keeps the brain intact. That's the only way, even in ME universe (read: AI blackboxes) to maintain a personality.

Shepard's skull, helmet, and thus brain were physically intact.  The only issue is cellular breakdown due to exposure and freezing, and/or lack of oxygen.

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:16 .

[008Zulu]

Alocormin wrote...
Shepard's skull, helmet, and thus brain were physically intact.  The only issue is cellular breakdown due to exposure and freezing, and/or lack of oxygen.

After 6 minutes of no oxygen, the cells in your brain immediately begin to die, unless you know the precise order and "settings" of each individual cell, rebuilding the person (personality, soul, etc) is impossible.

The best Cerberus could have hoped for is to program a cybernetic brain with as much information as they could find, granted their intelligence network is vast... but perhaps ME2 Shepard is an AI who doesnt know he is an AI.

[Zan51]

Can't add much to this except to point out that maybe Human medical research hasn't advanced far by the time the game is set, but what about alien tech, like that of the Asari? If they had something usable, then you can bet Cerberus would use it.

So don't just base it on what Humanity has available in med tech, take alien tech also into account.

[Deltamon]

Maybe it's not Shepard after all!



Maybe it's just a cloned impostor who is manipulated to act as if he/she was the real Shepard.. But in the ME3, you'll suddenly lose control of your character and it'll go rampage to destroy mankind.. And then...



The REAL Shepard will be dug up from the grave and will be made into cyborg, which you'll have to control to destroy the impostor Shepard! How awesome would that be? And imagine all the twisted reactions it would cause, since during the whole ME2 you really weren't yourself the whole time, but just thought that you were.. Also you'll lose all the emotions and memories gained in ME2, but you'll be forced to either destroy them, or allow the impostor to stay alive, but you'll be able to receive it's memories to the cyborg version of you, after the final battle!



Now there's some fantasy for you ****es!