724 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
No, but if the DR Wardens that are tightly involved with Morrigan never personally see any consequences for their actions, when the DR seems as much the beginning of a plot/story at the end of Origins, then I'd say thats screwing up the entire notion of the "no canon" approach.

And I think you appear to have a very narrow idea of Morrigan's story that involves it only being a romantic tale, something seen through the lens of the Warden and no other way-- and doing it some other way would be "screwing it up".

Which is fine, if that's how you really want to look at it, but I hope you see it for what it is. Imagining the very worst way it could be done and complaining about how that would feel seems a bit strange to me, but there you go.

[Dave of Canada]

Huntress wrote...

Didn't you just said the wardens story ended by killing the archdemon?
I probably won't embrace DA2 if is gonna have as many holes as Da:o

What "holes"? 

"Warden die after 30 years or so", Mine won't DIE I took arvanus potion and let Arvenus find a way to cure the rest of the warden.. or that means nothing? My warden won't live for 200-400 years if she took the potion but, won't die in 30 years neither she will turn / become a ghoul.

The potion does nothing but unlock powers in the taint, it doesn't "cure" you nor does Avernus research for a cure.

I do not mind new stories, just wanted to know what was really gonna happen with smart dark spawn.. But I suppose the rest of the smart dark spawn killed themself.. US way hahaha!

Just because you're not the Warden doesn't mean this choice won't show up later.

[David Gaider]

Dave of Canada wrote...
What "holes"? 

I think this is the internet definition of "plothole" which is equivalent to "I don't like it".

The potion does nothing but unlock powers in the taint, it doesn't "cure" you nor does Avernus research for a cure.

Evidently it does if you really, really wanted it to.

Just because you're not the Warden doesn't mean this choice won't show up later.

Indeed, this was part of my point on plot threads. Plot threads don't exist only in relation to the Warden-- and someone complaining that using those plot threads without the Warden involved as a PC drains them of all emotional relevance is forgetting that we're the ones who gave it that emotional relevance in the first place.

Trust us-- if we think a plot thread is worth picking up, we'll do it in a way that's worthwhile and not the worst-case-scenario someone conjures up to make using the Warden PC sound better. If we were to make Morrigan reappear for a different PC, for instance, we wouldn't have the PC stand there and ask awkward questions like "who are you?" and have them treat Morrigan like they had no idea what she was about-- or have the nature of her involvement in previous stories have absolutely no relevance to what's going on.

Seriously, give us some credit.

[Leonia]

I'll give ya some credit! I'm actually looking forward to approaching the Morrigan/Warden plotlines from another angle. It'll be sort of like reading Ender's Shadow after reading Ender's Game. Sure, Bean is an annoying character but it does offer a refreshing angle on the storyline. And I'm totally in love with Ender but I still appreciated hearing the story from the viewpoint of other characters.

Modifié par leonia42, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

I think this is the internet definition of "plothole" which is equivalent to "I don't like it".

One of my smaller pet peeves is how broadly used that term is.  A plot hole as I understand it is something that violates the internal consistency of the narrative.  

That being said, what was the Grey Warden's Plan A for bringing down a flying Archdemon?  Not necessarily at Denerim in that specific situation but in general.  Was the "Riordan maneuever" part of basic training at Weisshaupt?

David Gaider wrote...

Seriously, give us some credit.

The Riordan maneuver was a really, really cool way to cover up the fact that he was totally making it up as he went along. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[casedawgz]

I see what Gaider is saying, and I kinda see what the people complaining are saying. Gaider argues his case very well. The only beef I have with the Warden's story is how incredibly anti-climactic it is that Golems and Witch Hunt are his/her last two adventures. I would have preferred a more satisfying and suitably epic conclusion, but c'est la vie.

[Huntress]

If you want to find the holes in the game either :play the game or read the post..

Why he won't research for the cure? he told me and codex said he was working on it... darn what a freaking hole

Make a patch and kill Arvenus, destroy morrigan mirror or do not allow warden go thru it, Awakening never happen, dark spawn is still mining but mindless.

All the warden in thedas did US and gave the book's/notes of how to make gray warden's  to Chantry.

Modifié par Huntress, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Leonia]

Huntress wrote...

If you want to find the holes in the game either :play the game or read the post..

Why he won't research for the cure? he told me and codex said he was working on it... darn what a freaking hole

My theory is the "cure" will involve Fiona (who could possibly still be alive) and not Avernus at all.

[upsettingshorts]

casedawgz wrote...

I see what Gaider is saying, and I kinda see what the people complaining are saying. Gaider argues his case very well. The only beef I have with the Warden's story is how incredibly anti-climactic it is that Golems and Witch Hunt are his/her last two adventures. I would have preferred a more satisfying and suitably epic conclusion, but c'est la vie.

Good luck with delivering that promise to everyone.  Origins gave the player a lot of freedom, and that has obvious positives.  But it's going to be incredibly difficult for any writer to come up with story that feels satisfying and epic to every player because DA:O itself sets up so many potential Wardens.

It's part of the reason - I think - why Mass Effect's DLCs have been better received.  Shepard is more static, while each of our Shepards may differ from each other, they're all still recognizably Shepard with similar goals, similar methods, and a similar experience.  DA:O's variety means this is less true, so stories aren't going to fit comfortably in to everyone's idea of who their Warden was and what they were about.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:01 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Huntress wrote...

If you want to find the holes in the game either :play the game or read the post..

Why he won't research for the cure? he told me and codex said he was working on it... darn what a freaking hole

I'm almost certain you're trying to make a point. I just can't tell what.

[Wulfram]

I can assume Bioware's writing staff will use arcane rites to channel Tolkien, Shakespeare, Homer and Tolstoy - and I still think a continuation of Morrigan's story without the Warden and having to work both with and without the DR would probably suck.

Modifié par Wulfram, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:01 .

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I think this is the internet definition of "plothole" which is equivalent to "I don't like it".

One of my smaller pet peeves is how broadly used that term is.  A plot hole as I understand it is something that violates the internal consistency of the narrative.  

Or for my money, something like in the first Transformers movie, where Megatron can fly through the cold of space no problem, but gets frozen when he lands on earth.  It makes no sense!! 

As far as the Warden's presence being a neccesity to continue plot threads goes, I'd say it's just a matter of preferance, not neccesity.  If my Warden went through the mirror with Morrigan, then I would likely be more satisfied by seeing him when that story pick up again than a handwaved, "oh he's off doing whatever." But again, that's just what I personally find more appealing.  And I have no doubt that Bioware will make me love the story regardless of whether or not i ever see the charater again.

[upsettingshorts]

Right, if the story establishes certain rules and then either changes or ignores them - then it's a plot hole. From where I sit, anyway.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[AlanC9]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That being said, what was the Grey Warden's Plan A for bringing down a flying Archdemon?  Not necessarily at Denerim in that specific situation but in general.  Was the "Riordan maneuever" part of basic training at Weisshaupt? 

I'm betting massed bowfire  to cripple the wings.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
And I think you appear to have a very narrow idea of Morrigan's story that involves it only being a romantic tale, something seen through the lens of the Warden and no other way-- and doing it some other way would be "screwing it up".

I'm not saying its purely a romantic tale at all. What I'm saying is that for myself and many others, that approach to her story is pretty damn well done and to see it continue with the Warden would be most welcome- with the Warden and Morrigan in Eluvian Land or just having that ending mean something and be dealt with in a meaningful way. Compliments to you guys for doing such a damn good job on it.  Surely it can have other dimensions, but I'd just hate to see the romantic angle marginalized or brushed aside without any good rationale. Or to have the Warden get Viconia'd.

Maybe the Warden isn't the PC in the future, but all I'm saying is that given what us players have seen of Morrigan and know of her story/plans thus far, all signs point towards something with the Wardens. It surely doesn't have to be that way, but to tease and lure people along into some future continuity on that note with the epilogues in Origins, Awakening and how Witch Hunt ended, to not follow up on that whenever her story comes to fruition would be, for myself, amazingly disappointing. I wouldn't say its "screwing up" but it would likely suck out much of the interest I'd have in that plot thread if Morrigan showed up to some new PC and was all like "Oh yeah, the father of this kid? Rocks fell. He died." Worst case scenario, doom and gloom, I know, but come on- you guys live off of our tears.

David Gaider wrote...
If we were to make Morrigan reappear for a different PC, for instance, we wouldn't have the PC stand there and  ask awkward questions like "who are you?" and have them treat Morrigan  like they had no idea what she was about-- or have the nature of her  involvement in previous stories have absolutely no relevance to what's
going on.

RIght, but as I see  it, with Morrigan, just look at how ticked off people were with the  bugginess in WItch Hunt where Morrigan acted all bizarre, not  recognizing your past choices. If a new PC is  thrown in the mix, you're not dealing with the "same" Morrigan that you  left off with in Witch Hunt. Unless her personality changes drastically  or some Plot Hammer drops, it would be some stock Morrigan maybe slightly ticked off if the Warden stabbed her or maybe a little less witchy if the Warden romanced her.

The point I'm trying to make is that with the Warden back you'd be able to continue that relationship and have further character development such that the version of Morrigan you were interacting with would be directly reacting to the choice your Warden made. And presumably directly be dealing wih those consequences. By making it some new PC, Morrigan might be slightly different or reacting to the Warden's past choices, but as the new PC you're dulling that sense of reactivity as the player. Its like KOTOR2 when as the Exile you meet up with Bastila and Carth- as the Exile they mean nothing to you, while as the player you're all happy to see them again. That disconnect sucks. And to have that with a major character like Morrigan with no explanation for where the Warden is? Would suck even more.

David Gaider wrote...
Seriously, give us some credit.

All the credit in the world- once you bring back Morrigan and the Warden and Old God Baby.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Itkovian]

AlanC9 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That being said, what was the Grey Warden's Plan A for bringing down a flying Archdemon?  Not necessarily at Denerim in that specific situation but in general.  Was the "Riordan maneuever" part of basic training at Weisshaupt? 

I'm betting massed bowfire  to cripple the wings.

I vote for magic.

It's pretty much a given that there was some sort of plan to bring down the Dragon... though it probably was a long shot and a desperate one. Riordan simplified matters quite brilliantly I think.

Itkovian

[Leonia]

I thought Plan A was to simply ask the Archdemon to come down and fight fair.

[AlanC9]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Good luck with delivering that promise to everyone.  Origins gave the player a lot of freedom, and that has obvious positives.  But it's going to be incredibly difficult for any writer to come up with story that feels satisfying and epic to every player because DA:O itself sets up so many potential Wardens.

It's part of the reason - I think - why Mass Effect's DLCs have been better received.  Shepard is more static, while each of our Shepards may differ from each other, they're all still recognizably Shepard with similar goals, similar methods, and a similar experience.  DA:O's variety means this is less true, so stories aren't going to fit comfortably in to everyone's idea of who their Warden was and what they were about.

Of course, this is the players' fault to some extent. If you don't have a Warden who is committed to being a Warden, you shouldn't play Awakenings with that Warden. If none of your Wardens care about Morrigan, why DL Witch Hunt?

Though if players were sensible about this, that might hurt the sales prospects for expansions and DLCs.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:16 .

[Itkovian]

leonia42 wrote...

I thought Plan A was to simply ask the Archdemon to come down and fight fair.

Or hold up a mirror. It was the dragon of beauty, after all.

Itkovian

[Huntress]

The mirror is a lie.. or was the cake?

[Ortaya Alevli]

Riordan was just waxing nostalgic. He wanted to know how it felt to ride a flying beast just like the Wardens of old did. I can't blame him for succumbing to the urge. I sure would be like, "Daaaamn I so have to ride that thing" as well.

After I was done crapping myself, that is.

[Nerivant]

Huntress wrote...

The mirror is a lie.. or was the cake?

If what you see in the mirror is a lie, and you hold cake up to a mirror, is the cake the truth?

[Nozybidaj]

David Gaider wrote...

Seriously, give us some credit.

I seriously just got a flashback to "just trust us" before ME2's launch, lmao..... 

Sorry David, I'll give you a lot or props for things you do, especially your totally voluntary interaction with the community, but I think I'll take a 'wait and see' approach this time around. 

At this point I haven't really seen any reason I should be interested much in Hawke and if we never get the Warden back and wrap up any of those old loose threads, well its certainly your choice.

[Huntress]

Nerivant wrote...

Huntress wrote...

The mirror is a lie.. or was the cake?

If what you see in the mirror is a lie, and you hold cake up to a mirror, is the cake the truth?

It is cuz I am in the fade

[ace100000]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

... and the idea that it must be the Warden who is playable in order to continue any of these threads simply because people can only imagine connecting with them with that one character, ever, or because they have personal relationships they'd like to see continue... well, it's a little short-sighted.

All I'm saying is that with respect to Morrigan and the Warden, with the end of Origins, Awakening and even more so in Witch Hunt, perpetuated the notion that the Warden is (potentially) closely involved with whatever Morrigan/Flemeth is up to. And you guys have not been shy in saying how Morrigan's story isn't over.

So if you're going the whole "no canon" approach, and my Warden does the DR, and goes off into the Eluvian to "face the future together" with Morrigan all the while hinting at more big huge "change" involving Morrigan and the Old God Baby, I don't think its myopic at all to think that the most "emotionally engaging" or satisfying way to continue that storyline would be as the Warden PC.

Obviously it would be different for different Wardens, but isn't that the point in the "no canon" approach? That you can get to the point where you have diverging storylines? Such that the Warden that gut stabbed Morrigan should have to deal with those consequences later on, or that the Warden that is still alive and well in Mirror World with Morrigan should be right along with her and the OGB when the "change" comes around? 

Thats my sticking point- I have no problem with the Warden going to some far corner of Thedas or something, but the problem as I see it is that, especially with how the Warden is involved with Morrigan, if you simply bring back Morrigan while giving the Warden some Viconia style epilogue text write off, that would really ruin things retroactively for me. As I see it, with Morrigan, she is a different character depending on how your Warden has interacted with her thus far, and to simply bring her back without the Warden being the one interacting with her would be completely missing the point for a large reason as to why people might want to see Morrigan return. 

David Gaider wrote...
Continuing the Warden as a PC is possible, if complicated (and it would obviously necessitate either being optional or making the US non-canonical), but it is not the only route for continuing the story of Dragon Age and Thedas-- as well as the various plot threads which remain from DAO.
 

No, but if the DR Wardens that are tightly involved with Morrigan never personally see any consequences for their actions, when the DR seems as much the beginning of a plot/story at the end of Origins, then I'd say thats screwing up the entire notion of the "no canon" approach. If the DR Warden amounts to little more than a codex entry or cameo then they;re effectively sharing the same fate as the US Wardens, which flies in the face of the "no canon" approach of having your choices and consequences matter. Having some random new EPIC Hero PC of Thedas deal with Morrigan whenever her story hits its climax, as opposed to the Warden thats been tightly involved with her thus far would be terribly myopic, I'd say. It would be like having Luke Skywalker stuck on some backwater planet and having some random new  Hero Jawa take on Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi- you'd be sucking any and all of BioWare's precious "emotional engagement" out of the thing.

But thats for DA3 and beyond I guess. For me, and a good many others, if the DR Warden just gets the Viconia treatment or further treated as if they effectively did the US by not showing up ever again, I'd say thats a failure in the whole "no canon" approach.

I'll put my trust in you writer folk that you won't screw over the Warden and Morrigan and Old God Baby though.

totally in agreement with you