724 réponses à ce sujet

[ace100000]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fancy your Warden getting killed and rebuilt through magic by the Tevinter Imperium?

I do.

and than getting him to face morigan, OGB, flemeth or even hawke . yeah i kinda like that idea

[ErichHartmann]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fancy your Warden getting killed and rebuilt through magic by the Tevinter Imperium?

I do.

The Warden could return as a spirit from the Fade like Justice!

[jazzy B 3]

Personally I think of the DA universe a bit like Terry Pratchett's Discworld. It's a world, there are characters in it. You can follow one character or you can follow another group of characters, but the world continues to develop and yous ee the results of those developments (like the free golems for example). Dragon Age is not about the Warden. It's about the world and you posess characters that interact with that world.

[Legbiter]

Lord_Valandil wrote...


Haha, don't make me laugh.
Seriously though, I do want some closure....

Sorry, my eyes glazed over. I hate that phrase, it's one of the most loathsome of it's kind in the English language. I blame Oprah.

[Leonia]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fancy your Warden getting killed and rebuilt through magic by the Tevinter Imperium?

I do.

The Warden could return as a spirit from the Fade like Justice!

Speaking of the Fade.. now there is an interesting plot device. We've seen dead people showing up in the Fade before (Katriel and whats-her-face in the comics). Whether they are truly that person or not is hard to say (could just be fade spirits mimicking dead people) but I am sure a Fade sequence could be used to do things that normally couldn't happen. Maybe a Warden can be brought back this way? Maybe characters who have died can interact with us again as a non-Warden, somehow?

[Ortaya Alevli]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'd probably play that game too.  But it runs the risk of invalidating a lot of choice - you're practically on the other side of the known world - and make a lot of plot threads personally irrelevant to Cyborg Magic Warden.  I think it would bother a lot of people, to the point that making a new character like Hawke and moving on would legimitately seem like a better idea.  But that's just my guess.

But, you know, if you spare that assassin Marjolaine sent after Leliana, he may show up later on in Kirkwall and tell Hawke that he's a social worker in Lowtown. Think of the possibilities!

[KnightofPhoenix]

leonia42 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It could have been something more subtle than disapearing. They could have left it compeltely open and let us imagine things from there.
I just don't see the point.

But disappearing.. means anything could happen. Really, the possibilities are endless. To me, that IS leaving it open for us to decide things from there. How would you have written the epilogues to allow more freedom than that?

I am not a writer and I am too lazy to think it through. But a simple "The Warden went back to court" if consort. Or "The Warden met with his red head lover"....etc would have been good enough. The epilogue in Origins was surely good enough.
And it's not impossible, the Awakening epilogue does take into account those differences in romance and what the Warden is doing (if consort or not).

So the disapearing thing is not necessary to keep things open. I dont' see how it makes much sense for a ruling couple, or for the consort to disapear.  What's the point if things can be left open without this?

EDIT: but like I said, it's not a disaster. I can imagine whatever happened and then imagine my Warden doing what he wants (too bad he followed Morrigan). I just fail to see  the point.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Legbiter wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...


Haha, don't make me laugh.
Seriously though, I do want some closure....

Sorry, my eyes glazed over. I hate that phrase, it's one of the most loathsome of it's kind in the English language. I blame Oprah.

Poor ol' Oprah.

[Leonia]

Ah, KnightofPhoenix, I think you are referring to the "buggy" epilogues that we got with Awakening (the ones that ignored Origins decisions). Ok, I get where you are coming from now. In my mind, those were just badly done because they ignored plot flags (whether it was intentional or not) so I tend to disregard them.

[upsettingshorts]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Poor ol' Oprah.

At least she will rest comfortably in the afterlife.

[Ortaya Alevli]

leonia42 wrote...

Ah, KnightofPhoenix, I think you are referring to the "buggy" epilogues that we got with Awakening (the ones that ignored Origins decisions). Ok, I get where you are coming from now. In my mind, those were just badly done because they ignored plot flags (whether it was intentional or not) so I tend to disregard them.

Epilogues in Awakening were horribly buggy, partly because half the variables would be messed up back in Origins to begin with. If you talk to a romanced Morrigan after dark ritual, your romance flag is bugged. If you talk to a non-romanced Leliana after starting the Landsmeet, quite a few approval flags with her are bugged. And so forth. If I were one of the writers, I'd be a little upset with how things differed compared to what I intended.

By the way, I don't care about Warden coming back in a future game in any shape of form; that thing about Warden being resurrected by the Tevinters was a reference to an earlier conversation involving the ME2 plot, nothing more.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
A story "not being finished" is, however, not the same as a story "being continued only with the Warden as a PC". I get that some people might really want that, and not be able to wrap their heads around how it could be otherwise, but that doesn't make it the only possibility-- or the only desireable outcome, neither for you as the fan nor for us as the creators.

Well, for much of the reasons already stated, I 'd think the Warden returning as the PC would make for the most "emotionally engaging" way to resolve or explore certain plots, like Morrigan's story, in the future. Now sure, you can resolve Morrigan's story in different ways without the Warden as PC. But Witch Hunt seems in retrospect like a bit of kick in the balls then if your Warden went off into the Eluvian with Morrigan only to have Mr. Most Epic Hero EVAR PC step up in DA3 (or whenever). That Eluvian ending was a very nice "walk off into the sunset" ending and if we never saw or heard from Morrigan or the Warden that went through with her, I'd be perfectly fine with that.

The issue is that by bringing Morrigan back and not satisfactorily or meaningfully reacting to the Warden that went through the Eluvian with her or stabbed her or was BFF's with her, its marginalizing what, from the POV of the player, is a HUGE choice.

I'm good at conjuring up worst case scenarios, but its only because in my view they've happened before- Revan disappearing and having the Exile meet up with Bastila and Carth- totally sucked the life out of things in KOTOR2. And then tme jumping ahead in TOR means we'll never get a direct resolution to that plot. Or worse in my view is Aribeth in NWN and HotU- having the NWN PC make a big choice regarding her fate and developing a relationship with her only to have a new PC step in HotU and not only have your NWN PC's choice Plot Hammered away reagrding Aribeth, but then dead Aribeth flinging herself at the new PC. If something like that happened with Morrigan, it would stink mightily.

David Gaider wrote...
The Morrigan side plot applies here in particular-- some people seem to think that's "the Warden's story" simply because their PC intersected with it (possibly-- though only possibly-- in a very significant way). But that's not the Warden's story. That's Morrigan's story. While the Warden may feature a prominent (or even starring) role in it, that's not the same as it being about the Warden...

All I'm saying is that if you want the whole "no canon" approach to amount to anything from the perspective of us people playing the game, if ever there seemed to be a plot line or story that should change a good deal based on the player's choices, it would seem to be Morrigan's. And I'd hate to see some new PC to step in during the climax to Morrigan's story without the Warden who chose to go through the Eluvian with her. Or conversely, to have the Warden that stabbed Morrigan or maybe survived but turned down the DR not have to face Morrigan again. I just think there is a tremendous amount of BioWare's precious "emotional engagement" in the Warden playing a role in the culmination of Morrigan's story. And to ****** that away with some new PC, like a Revan in KOTOR2 or Aribeth in HotU type way would be tremendously disappointing. The whole Morrigan plot line is really the sole reason I'm still as interested in DA as  I am right now- thats a credit to you guys.

David Gaider wrote...
...if you can remove a character from the story and it survives intact, then I think that pretty much proves the point.

As an aside, isn't that a major problem then with the whole 'No canon" approach  with any character thats capable of being killed, essentially being reduced to reaplaceable cameos and roles of little uniqueness for people that didn't kill them- like ME2 with Kaiden/Ashley sharing the exact same dialogue and being reduced to cardboard cutouts filling a role? Or even the Old God Baby's creation is optional and Morrigan goes on without it- does that mean its not important ? Whats that say about player choice and consequence if any choices are reduced to one size fits all generic roles?

David Gaider wrote...
Again, does that mean we're done with the Warden ever appearing again? Possibly... or maybe not. I promise nothing, and we have our own plans for how the overall story arc is going to resolve itself. My only comment is directed towards some of the anguished hand-wringing or the people asserting that there's only one possible way for this to go and anything else is some kind of broken promise (one that was neither made nor implied). I'm simply saying there's a big difference between where someone might say they want the story to head, what they would actually be happy with and where it would be wise to go.

I get that- and I'm sure there are ways to resolve Morrigan's story without the Warden as PC. Just don't give a "Oh, the second he stepped through the Eluvian he got insta-gibbed, so the result of that is Morrigan doling out one extra line of unique dialogue to Mr. New Hero PC where she is a little sad/mad/bitter."

Whether its clear to you guys or not, from the POV of us gamers that have no clue what the timeline of Thedas looks like, these expectations of maybe having the Warden involved in the climax of Morrigan's story or showing up again don't come from some pipe dream- the groundwork and hints and choices which lead us on that way are in the game themselves. The expectations for the Warden being involved in the future were created by you (BioWare).

I'm not saying anything of broken promises or anything- you guys will make the game you want to make- all I'm saying is that given what we all know from just the games themselves, its not myopic at all to picture the Warden being an integral part of the conclusion to Morrigan's storyline, considering their role in it so far, whether as PC or not, romantic or hostile. Again, think of it from all of our perspectives- the endings to Origins, Awakening and WItch Hunt do nothing to provide answers or closure really and even if they're "walking off into the sunset" type endings, that little extra bit of saying how the Warden's adventures aren't over or having the Warden follow Morrigan, perpetuate the notion that they'll show up again in the future, when its repeated ad nauseum that Morrigan's story isn't finished.

David Gaider wrote...
No doubt this is no different than any story or series that has fans who express a personal need for a story to provide them something specific, and then being unhappy if it doesn't roll that way-- but some perspective would be nice. Unrealistic for me to expect, probably, but so be it.

It is different than a movie or book or TV show though- with an RPG where you can create your PC, its a much different level of "emotional engagement." And just benching the Warden for some new roster change Most Epic Hero EVAR PC  while still bringing Morrigan back, at this juncture, would seem to be pissing away any "emotional engagement" the player has built up with Morrigan via their Warden PC and would reduce my interest in Morrigan's story into a more detached, "meh, maybe I'll watch the cutscenes on youtube" type affair.

As for perspective, I totally understand that you can take this different ways- and they might be pretty damn good- but the only perspective you've given many people is to feed into the notion that the Warden wll come back or play a big role in Morrigan's story in the future, given the whole "no canon" approach and what evident in the game based on player choice. Obviously the writers and devs have a more complete picture, but we can only go off of whats been presented in the game, and based on the choices afforded the character, for some, the most ideal resolution to Morrigan's storyline would be with the Warden as PC- whether thats a hostile Warden that finally gets to off her, a friendly Warden that can figure out what the gift was she left behind, an Orlesian that was ominously warned by Morrigan in Witch Hunt about Flemeth's role in the Blight and to warn the Wardens of the change to come or as a romantic interest that went through the Eluvian with her.

Modifié par Brockololly, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[upsettingshorts]

DSerpa wrote...

Hells yes. Notice how I add an "s" to the end of the word "hell" to emphasis my enthusiasm for such a game. Upon resurrection, the Warden should look at the one of the mages and say, "Your robes. Give them to me. Now."

That's what happens in Mass Effect 2, which is why I brought it up - heh.  It was a plot device that allowed the writers to hit a couple of reset buttons.

[Legbiter]

Please don't cater to obsessive emo Morrigan fans in any way, shape or form in DA 2. 'Tis unhealthy.  

What, you think Morrigan would want your Warden to spend his time pouting over her? She'd much sooner tell you to go with the lads and get laid at the Pearl than do that.

Modifié par Legbiter, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:34 .

[ace100000]

DSerpa wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fancy your Warden getting killed and rebuilt through magic by the Tevinter Imperium?

Hells yes. Notice how I add an "s" to the end of the word "hell" to emphasize my enthusiasm for such a game. Upon resurrection, the Warden should look at the one of the mages and say, "Your robes. Give them to me. Now."

a resurrected badass warden would be awesome. Bring him bioware.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Ok, Brock's pic of Morrigan, LMAO.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fancy your Warden getting killed and rebuilt through magic by the Tevinter Imperium?

I do.

The Warden could return as a spirit from the Fade like Justice!

I'm liking this idea, as long as my flesh isn't falling off.

[Blastback]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fancy your Warden getting killed and rebuilt through magic by the Tevinter Imperium?

I do.

The Warden could return as a spirit from the Fade like Justice!

I'm liking this idea, as long as my flesh isn't falling off.

I figure that a way for the warden to come back if they preformed the Ultimate Sacrifice is to have something to do with the Architect's experiments.  He awakened the Archdemon unnaturally, and so something happened to both the warden and archdeamon that wasn't supposed to.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Blastback wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fancy your Warden getting killed and rebuilt through magic by the Tevinter Imperium?

I do.

The Warden could return as a spirit from the Fade like Justice!

I'm liking this idea, as long as my flesh isn't falling off.

I figure that a way for the warden to come back if they preformed the Ultimate Sacrifice is to have something to do with the Architect's experiments.  He awakened the Archdemon unnaturally, and so something happened to both the warden and archdeamon that wasn't supposed to.

Where did you get the information that the Architect awakened the Archdemon?  I thought the Architect was trying to block the song that the old gods sing to lead the darkspawn to them - to awaken them.  This was the reason that the Architect and the Mother were at war with each other in Awakenings.  Is this information in the codex in Awakenings?  I'd like to read this.

[Morrigans God son]

TEAM WARDEN FOREVER!

We'll be back biatches.

[Blastback]

If you and the architect confront the mother together she reveals it. He was trying to prevent the blight, but goofed.

[ErichHartmann]

Morrigans God son wrote...

TEAM WARDEN FOREVER!
We'll be back biatches.

Team child of Bhaal.  We'll never be back.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Blastback wrote...

If you and the architect confront the mother together she reveals it. He was trying to prevent the blight, but goofed.

Thanks for the info.  I always kill the Architect off.

[Blastback]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

TEAM WARDEN FOREVER!
We'll be back biatches.

Team child of Bhaal.  We'll never be back.

Preach on!

*Fist bump*