724 réponses à ce sujet

[Merced652]

Maconbar wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

I think you guys will be much more satisfied if you just forgot morrigan ever existed. No matter what they do it will not do the story line justice because they have to account for player decisions, even incredibly unpopular ones. She might as well not exist. And heres where david is showing noting more than bravado from that standpoint; her character is so poorly done outside of the romance/DR that any attempt to make her more important than she is initially portrayed depreciates if not outright destroys the warden's story.

I'll be content that the only way they can do it will essentially be boiled down to "a wizard did it." Meaning she only becomes an important plot character again through discovery of some obscure object that will somehow be relevant to whatever half assed character they have you playing.

Please explain how Morrigan's continued presence in the overall DA story arc destroys the warden's story.

Because they can't do it without diminishing some facet of the original story. She comes back as an all powerful **** sans warden - meaning the warden didn't mean **** to her and the whole romance was a worthless endevor. She comes back as a mysterious medivh type character sans god baby - once again diminishing the only good bits of writing that were done with her character to begin with.

I really would go on, but theres entirely too many scenarios to cover, and none of them are even as interesting as the two i did.

[Arthur Cousland]

Well, they could have the offspring of the Origins warden be the main pc in a future game. The Origins warden would make their appearance in the beginning, but then it would be the story of the offspring to go make their mark in history as a level 1 character, and meet an all new cast. That could help with continuity without having to over-do it.



By the end of Witch Hunt, it is obvious that there's not much more to do with the warden, as my character was maxed out since Awakening. No matter the difficulty, they had the best gear and so many different means to stay alive while dishing out damage. However, they could have settled down after that, and be reduced to a mentor or parent to the pc in the next game. The warden could still be relevant, while telling a new story of a different character. If the warden did the u.s. ending, then they don't make an appearance since they wouldn't have played that big of a role anyway. They'd just be replaced by a friend/relative or some other person.

[ace100000]

[quote]Merced652 wrote...

[quote]Maconbar wrote...

[quote]Merced652 wrote...

I think you guys will be much more satisfied if you just forgot morrigan ever existed. No matter what they do it will not do the story line justice because they have to account for player decisions, even incredibly unpopular ones. She might as well not exist. And heres where david is showing noting more than bravado from that standpoint; her character is so poorly done outside of the romance/DR that any attempt to make her more important than she is initially portrayed depreciates if not outright destroys the warden's story.

I'll be content that the only way they can do it will essentially be boiled down to "a wizard did it." Meaning she only becomes an important plot character again through discovery of some obscure object that will somehow be relevant to whatever half assed character they have you playing. [/quote]

Please explain how Morrigan's continued presence in the overall DA story arc destroys the warden's story.

[/quote]

Because they can't do it without diminishing some facet of the original story. She comes back as an all powerful **** sans warden - meaning the warden didn't mean **** to her and the whole romance was a worthless endevor. She comes back as a mysterious medivh type character sans god baby - once again diminishing the only good bits of writing that were done with her character to begin with.

I really would go on, but theres entirely too many scenarios to cover, and none of them are even as interesting as the two i did.

[/quote ]WOW  you probably are the only guy here who feels morrigans story is not worth keeping 

[mellifera]

WHOOPS. NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

Modifié par yukidama, 23 novembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Brockololly]

As much as I'd like to see the Warden come back with Morrigan provided it makes sense (like going through the Eluvian with her), they could bring Morrigan back on her own and still acknowledge the Warden. At issue would be portraying Morrigan in such a way that she doesn't come across as a one size fits all, cookie cutter character, as her character development is affected by her relationship with the Warden. Although, thats kind of the issue I think- the "version" of Morrigan you get in say Witch Hunt is only reactive and developed in such a way when interacting with the Warden individually. It wouldn't make much sense to me to have Morrigan acting all friendly or something to some new PC just because she romanced or was BFFs with the Warden. That unique reaction would be unique to the Warden.

And thats the problem maybe- that based on Morrigan's personality of being quite abrasive and shut off from people, the only person she really is friends/romantic with is the Warden. And you bring in a new PC, it would maybe seem as if the new PC would have to try and break through those layers all over again. Or on the other hand, Morrigan's character is changed in such a way that it wouldn't really be the same Morrigan as you had in Origins- like if she were some all powerful Gandalf the White type version of Morrigan after being in Mirror World and its up to the new PC to piece together who this new Morrigan is and for the player to piece together how the Origins version of Morrigan got to the DA3 or whatever, version of Morrigan.

The gear/level thing really isn't a big deal, as given the combat changes and such you'd be different anyway as the Warden. Unless they add dual wield warriors back , my DW warrior Warden for example would have somehow forgotten how to dual wield. I don't care as much for continuity in that stuff- its the story thats more important for continuity.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 novembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Merced652]

WOW you probably are the only guy here who feels morrigans story is not worth keeping

You'd be wrong, if for no other reason than because i think the story, as it is currently for the players, is worth keeping. I'm simply saying any distortion the writers wish to bring to her story will do nothing less than diminish her time with the warden by invalidating the warden as a meaningful character. Meaning that if you wish to keep your warm and fuzzy feelings you'd be wishing she doesn't get brought back.

[Nerdage]

DA:O was very interactive and gave you alot of choices in how you get through it but its start, end and main story aren't up for debate. It was about the blight, the fact that you witnessed it as the warden doesn't make it about them, after all, at most you could say it was about the warden's fight against the blight, but that too was concluded by the end of the blight. You've no more right to demand "What happened with X?" or "Where'd Y go?" than you do with any other story, regardless of the value you placed on them.

For example, Leliana was very important in my story. Seeing as she was always in my party and my warden was romancing her I could argue that she was just as important to my story as the actual PC, that doesn't make the game about her and doesn't entitle her to feature in another game. Now you could argue that Morrigan actually did something that made her important, but as far as we know that importance only reaches as far as saving the warden, were there no DR the blight still would've been ended and we don't know what (if anything, considered that one?) the old god child will become. Simply assuming that, because the warden can survive Origins, they therefore must return is no more true than saying "Ruck must come back in DA2 because I didn't kill him in Origins".

I guess a way to look at it is, if the old god child (or any story thread from DAO, for that matter) comes up in another DA game, then the warden will be to that story what Wilhelm was to Shale's story. Not a perfect fit, perhaps, but the point is that a character doesn't have to make an appearance to be important to a story.

Also, anyone else think that..

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not saying "just trust us". I'm saying "give us some credit for being able to write something which you've already expressed enjoyment for". If someone really wants to threaten to take their ball and go home because they don't think anything could be as good as what came before... congratulations? I haveno idea what you would consider a good story, and the chances that everyone would enjoy any story equally are pretty remote, but don't act like we don't know how to write one if you've already come away from at least one of our stories feeling like you do.

should be somewhere in the forum terms of use? Could save alot of time.

Modifié par nerdage, 23 novembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[TheRevanchist]

Merced652 wrote...

WOW you probably are the only guy here who feels morrigans story is not worth keeping

You'd be wrong, if for no other reason than because i think the story, as it is currently for the players, is worth keeping. I'm simply saying any distortion the writers wish to bring to her story will do nothing less than diminish her time with the warden by invalidating the warden as a meaningful character. Meaning that if you wish to keep your warm and fuzzy feelings you'd be wishing she doesn't get brought back.

I think this guy has a point. But it's for the Dev's to decide in the end.

[ace100000]

Merced652 wrote...

WOW you probably are the only guy here who feels morrigans story is not worth keeping

You'd be wrong, if for no other reason than because i think the story, as it is currently for the players, is worth keeping. I'm simply saying any distortion the writers wish to bring to her story will do nothing less than diminish her time with the warden by invalidating the warden as a meaningful character. Meaning that if you wish to keep your warm and fuzzy feelings you'd be wishing she doesn't get brought back.

I just really do not see how return of morrigan in any sort of way can diminish the wardens part in the story. Hell it would be more interesting if we can have the warden as the PC when she returns . I am sure the devs can come up with a way to bring any type of morrigan, Powerfull **** or any other ,back without damaging the wardens part in her story or even undermining it ,even if u can't.

[Maconbar]

Merced652 wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

I think you guys will be much more satisfied if you just forgot morrigan ever existed. No matter what they do it will not do the story line justice because they have to account for player decisions, even incredibly unpopular ones. She might as well not exist. And heres where david is showing noting more than bravado from that standpoint; her character is so poorly done outside of the romance/DR that any attempt to make her more important than she is initially portrayed depreciates if not outright destroys the warden's story.

I'll be content that the only way they can do it will essentially be boiled down to "a wizard did it." Meaning she only becomes an important plot character again through discovery of some obscure object that will somehow be relevant to whatever half assed character they have you playing.

Please explain how Morrigan's continued presence in the overall DA story arc destroys the warden's story.

Because they can't do it without diminishing some facet of the original story. She comes back as an all powerful **** sans warden - meaning the warden didn't mean **** to her and the whole romance was a worthless endevor. She comes back as a mysterious medivh type character sans god baby - once again diminishing the only good bits of writing that were done with her character to begin with.

I really would go on, but theres entirely too many scenarios to cover, and none of them are even as interesting as the two i did.

All this really shows is that you can't develop a good story arc that involves Morrigan. Fortunately the more relevant position is whether Gaider et al can develop an effective story arc that involves Morrigan.

[Blastback]

Yes, let's give the writers some credit. They may not be able to 100% please everyone, but I think that if and when they decide to deal with Morrigan, they will be able to make the majority of us happy with how they do it.

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

As much as I'd like to see the Warden come back with Morrigan provided it makes sense (like going through the Eluvian with her), they could bring Morrigan back on her own and still acknowledge the Warden. At issue would be portraying Morrigan in such a way that she doesn't come across as a one size fits all, cookie cutter character, as her character development is affected by her relationship with the Warden. Although, thats kind of the issue I think- the "version" of Morrigan you get in say Witch Hunt is only reactive and developed in such a way when interacting with the Warden individually. It wouldn't make much sense to me to have Morrigan acting all friendly or something to some new PC just because she romanced or was BFFs with the Warden. That unique reaction would be unique to the Warden.

Nobody said you'd get a one size fits all Morrigan. If anything, David clearly said that our choices and realtionship with Morrigan would be acknowledged.
Morrigan isn't our character to decide how she'd react. That's up to Daivd Gaider, who created her and therefore knows more about her than anyone else here. No matter how he makes Morrigan interact with the new protagonist it certainly won't be out of character.

Finally, this whole "bring back the Warden" campaign in really starting to get out of hand. Bioware (and David Gaider, even though he's not the one who decides what will or won't be done in a game) have heard and acknowledged our wishes. Whether or not those wishes are realistic is something else. If they can bring the Warden back so that it makes sense for everyone and doesn't cause technical complications or requires retcons, than they will. If not then we'll get a new protagonist. But whatever card we'll dealt our history and choices regarding Morrigan won't be simply ignored.

If there is anything we (Morrigan fans) should be fighting for, it's that our choices and relationship with Morrigan influence how her story plays out. That's the biggest satisfaction you can realisticaly get and a lot less frustrating for the writers at Bioware.

[upsettingshorts]

Indeed, I want my romanced Morrigan, refused Dark Ritual, Redeemer ending to matter. I viewed that Warden as a hopeless romantic who naively thought he could change Morrigan, or deluded himself into thinking she was something she wasn't. He was therefore shocked and hurt by Morrigan's proposal of the Dark Ritual, but still wanted to go find her after Denerim. Plus they still borked so there is an implied baby (at least in the epilogue of DA:O, I haven't played Witch Hunt yet) just not a god baby.



If it turns out the God Baby is hand waved into canon it will have broken that Warden's character. He would never do that, nor would he have asked Loghain (or Alistair had it not been a Redeemer ending) to do so.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

As much as I'd like to see the Warden come back with Morrigan provided it makes sense (like going through the Eluvian with her), they could bring Morrigan back on her own and still acknowledge the Warden. At issue would be portraying Morrigan in such a way that she doesn't come across as a one size fits all, cookie cutter character, as her character development is affected by her relationship with the Warden.

That's just impossible. If Morrigan appears again, any change via the Warden has to get handwaved or compartmentalized. But generally speaking all Morrigan learns at best is that there is at least one person who may well care about her without wanting anything in return, and that's not hard to handwave away.

Although, thats kind of the issue I think- the "version" of Morrigan you get in say Witch Hunt is only reactive and developed in such a way when interacting with the Warden individually. It wouldn't make much sense to me to have Morrigan acting all friendly or something to some new PC just because she romanced or was BFFs with the Warden. That unique reaction would be unique to the Warden.

There is no reason for Morrigan to treat any new character any different than she did Alistair at the start of DA:O (and through the game, really) which can smooth her over into one character.

And thats the problem maybe- that based on Morrigan's personality of being quite abrasive and shut off from people, the only person she really is friends/romantic with is the Warden. And you bring in a new PC, it would maybe seem as if the new PC would have to try and break through those layers all over again. Or on the other hand, Morrigan's character is changed in such a way that it wouldn't really be the same Morrigan as you had in Origins- like if she were some all powerful Gandalf the White type version of Morrigan after being in Mirror World and its up to the new PC to piece together who this new Morrigan is and for the player to piece together how the Origins version of Morrigan got to the DA3 or whatever, version of Morrigan.

Or Morrigain is simply not a party member (that's your assumption, it seems) and there is no need for any friendliness - she is simply what Flemeth was in DA:O, or might be in DA2.

The reward for us as the player, then, would for example be hearing the "true" story of Morrigan like we did with Connibar and Flemeth, only with that content varying based on who your Warden was.

At least, that's how I'd handle it were I Bioware.  

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If it turns out the God Baby is hand waved into canon it will have broken that Warden's character. He would never do that, nor would he have asked Loghain (or Alistair had it not been a Redeemer ending) to do so.

They could solve that by just dropping hints that the sprog is special in some undefined way, that way dark ritual players can nod knowingly, people who discovered "friend with benefits" doesn't really work in a society without decent birth control can assume it's because he/she is the child of a hero/warden and everyone else can just take it that any child she found or gave birth to is special because she is.

They could alternatively find some way to suggest she managed to complete the dark ritual despite your choice, because she doesn't seem the type to have just given up. Though that one leads to inevitable complaints.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 23 novembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[David Gaider]

Blastback wrote...
Yes, let's give the writers some credit. They may not be able to 100% please everyone, but I think that if and when they decide to deal with Morrigan, they will be able to make the majority of us happy with how they do it.

At the end of the day, I'll be pleased enough if I make me happy.

Whether someone has received enough validation to make them not want to go onto the internet and wax poetic about how we don't respect our own story, their story, the story of the entire world, etc etc... frankly, that's of secondary importance. Sorry.

Modifié par David Gaider, 23 novembre 2010 - 08:54 .

[Ziggeh]

In Exile wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

As much as I'd like to see the Warden come back with Morrigan provided it makes sense (like going through the Eluvian with her), they could bring Morrigan back on her own and still acknowledge the Warden. At issue would be portraying Morrigan in such a way that she doesn't come across as a one size fits all, cookie cutter character, as her character development is affected by her relationship with the Warden.

That's just impossible. If Morrigan appears again, any change via the Warden has to get handwaved or compartmentalized. But generally speaking all Morrigan learns at best is that there is at least one person who may well care about her without wanting anything in return, and that's not hard to handwave away.

Indeed, I can't see anything you can change about her that couldn't be explained by exposure to other people and/or a child. Assuming she is inextricable from the warden seems to be missing the main thrust of her personal narrative: her relationship to Flemeth, who's clearly a key figure in the story of Thedas.

[Lord_Caledore]

Upsettingshorts wrote..

If it turns out the God Baby is hand waved into canon it will have broken that Warden's character. He would never do that, nor would he have asked Loghain (or Alistair had it not been a Redeemer ending) to do so.

David Gaider has said that it won't be, thankfully. If you didn't do the Dark Ritual, then it won't have happened. He also addresses a "plan B" Dark Ritual not happening because it destroys the meaningfulness of the choice at the end of Origins and would be "pretty lame" to boot .

The link: 

http://social.biowar...20&lf=8#3195476

Modifié par Lord_Caledore, 23 novembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
 Plus they still borked so there is an implied baby (at least in the epilogue of DA:O, I haven't played Witch Hunt yet) just not a god baby.

Well, in Witch Hunt there is a dialogue difference if you have the Old God Baby versus the regular Baby, so it would seem they have that accounted for.

In Exile wrote...
There is no  reason for Morrigan to treat any new character any different than she did Alistair at the start of DA:O (and through the game, really) which  can smooth her over into one character.

Well thats the point really- what I'm saying is that having Morrigan introduced to a new PC again is seemingly kind of boring, as you'd be conceivably treading old ground unless her character changes in some big way. Any character development you had between her and the Warden wouldn't necessarily amount to much if you're some new PC interacting with her.

In Exile wrote...
Or Morrigain is  simply not a party member (that's your assumption, it seems) and there  is no need for any friendliness - she is simply what Flemeth was in  DA:O, or might be in DA2.

No thats entirely possible that she is not a party member- it would be a bit disappoining if that were the case perhaps only given that I felt the non-party member characters in Origins had the tendency to come across as fairly one note given your relative lack of interaction with them compared to the companions. Like prior to being a party member I found Loghain kind of boring, yet once he's a party member you learn a hell of alot more about him and he's a much more interesting character. If Morrigan were to be a non-party member, I'd worry it would be too easy to lump her into a stereotypical role and compounded with a new PC, she would come across as nothing more than the caustic, Witch the Warden meets in the Korcari wilds.

In Exile wrote...
The reward for us as the player, then, would for example be hearing the "true" story of Morrigan like we did  with Connibar and Flemeth, only with that content varying based on who your Warden was.

Well, for me, thats taking a more visceral or emotional story via the Warden and really distancing it to such an extent that it goes into that KOTOR2/Aribeth awkward disconnect zone between the PC and player. I mean, if the new PC were to learn some part of Morrigan's plan and combined with the player's knowledge from DAO, the player has some epiphany and pieces the thing together, you'd possibly be left with the scenario where the new PC is still left in the dark, and you're left with no satisfactory way to convey the feelings of the playerto the PC. It sort of sucks the life out of the climax of Morrigan's story and reduce it to a more academic type affair in seeing how it plays out.

I'm sure the writers can come up with something good- will it satisfy everyone? Probably not, but so it goes.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 novembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

Merced652 wrote...

WOW you probably are the only guy here who feels morrigans story is not worth keeping

You'd be wrong, if for no other reason than because i think the story, as it is currently for the players, is worth keeping. I'm simply saying any distortion the writers wish to bring to her story will do nothing less than diminish her time with the warden by invalidating the warden as a meaningful character. Meaning that if you wish to keep your warm and fuzzy feelings you'd be wishing she doesn't get brought back.

In the grand story of Thedas... the Warden isn't a meaningful character. The Warden is the person who kept something bad from happening, and historically speaking, those types of characters rarely get the recognition they deserve. In Ferelden, the Warden is very important, but Ferelden is doesn't seem to be an important country in Thedas.

In the story of Morrigan... the Warden is a love interest at best or a friend she knew a decade ago. If Morrigan's story was a love story, it would be a very important role, but it seems Morrigan's story is about some change coming to Thedas or her fight with Flemeth.

[Stoomkal]

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".



It is a matter of judging, as a writer or a reader, whether a story has come to any kind of CONCLUSION.



Anyone who is trying to argue that WH provided any kind of ending, at all, is simply arguing a farcical point.



It is an "end" not a "conclusion".



It is, in fact, leaving alot hanging in the wind. Stories need to end with a full stop. This can be a "happy ever after" or a "not happy ever after".



In fact, Dragon Age Origins and WH ended with a ",,,"



Any argument to the contrary is simply silly, and is insulting coming from someone who is a writer.

[Leonia]

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

It is a matter of judging, as a writer or a reader, whether a story has come to any kind of CONCLUSION.

Anyone who is trying to argue that WH provided any kind of ending, at all, is simply arguing a farcical point.

It is an "end" not a "conclusion".

It is, in fact, leaving alot hanging in the wind. Stories need to end with a full stop. This can be a "happy ever after" or a "not happy ever after".

In fact, Dragon Age Origins and WH ended with a ",,,"

Any argument to the contrary is simply silly, and is insulting coming from someone who is a writer.

Well, since you're a writer and all, please show me where the character development and plot of The Warden was in Origins because all I see is the overall plot and how the Warden interacts with characters and makes decisions at each of the overall story's plot points.

You can't conclude a plot line that doesn't exist. The Warden is more of a game mechanic than an actual integral part of the story. The story of Origins still would have happened without The Warden, the same decisions would have just been made by Alistair on his own (or with whatever companions he decided to bring along).

The story was never about The Warden. The Warden is just the vehicle in which the player is able to enjoy the story from, essentially. I know, that makes me sound like a Warden-hater but.. the more and more I think about the role The Warden played in Origins, the more I am convinced The Warden wasn't nearly as important as we all like to think he/she was.

[Maria Caliban]

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

David Gaider?

[Stoomkal]

Ummm... you could make that argument about *any* character.



LotR would have happened without Frodo, Star Wars without Luke Skywalker.



and... a character is a device that is part of a plot. Character interaction and choice *are* characterisation.



I am not sure what your point is...