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[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

David Gaider?

Me, I just find the image of a "literary industry" out there full of men in smoking jackets debating over whether or not Dragon Age had a satisfactory conclusion to be incredibly amusing.

[Leonia]

Stoomkal wrote...

Ummm... you could make that argument about *any* character.

LotR would have happened without Frodo, Star Wars without Luke Skywalker.

and... a character is a device that is part of a plot. Character interaction and choice *are* characterisation.

I am not sure what your point is...

How would the ring have gotten to Mordor? How would Vader have been redeemed?

My point is, there is no climax in The Warden's plot line, so how can you expect a proper conclusion to be drawn? About all we got was an exposition, in the form of their origin, and the rest is just walking around Ferelden, uniting the land against the Blight. There is nothing to conclude, there was no conflict for The Warden. The Warden was forced to be in the Grey Wardens and to do his/her duty. There is no personal dilemma to conquer or anything. 

Ok, the origins presented us with some motivation for joining the Wardens but aside from that.. what is the Warden's conflict? Stopping the Archdemon? Well, if that is the case, then yes there is a conclusion. Killing the archdemon was the conclusion.

WH, as you recall, was optional DLC. Not everyone had to add that to their Warden's story.

Modifié par leonia42, 24 novembre 2010 - 01:39 .

[TJPags]

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

It is a matter of judging, as a writer or a reader, whether a story has come to any kind of CONCLUSION.

Anyone who is trying to argue that WH provided any kind of ending, at all, is simply arguing a farcical point.

It is an "end" not a "conclusion".

It is, in fact, leaving alot hanging in the wind. Stories need to end with a full stop. This can be a "happy ever after" or a "not happy ever after".

In fact, Dragon Age Origins and WH ended with a ",,,"

Any argument to the contrary is simply silly, and is insulting coming from someone who is a writer.

Did you poll them all?

Stories need to end - not necesarily to your satisfaction, but to the satisfaction of the writer.

I'd have liked a better ending to WH.  A resolution of the OGB issue.  But I don't see how a second full game featuring the Warden can work . . .there's no Blight, and how many times can the Warden be sent on some silly mission before it gets silly?  (Actually, IMO, GoA hit that wall).

And the OGB can easily factor into future games  - which don't need the Warden in them.

[Stoomkal]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

David Gaider?

Heh...

That depends, have you read his books?

Besides, there is a little quote in the industry we have used since the fifties "The Author is Dead".

Apparently, you will always get an author claiming he made *no* mistakes, that his stories are perfectly *concluded*, and that he was in no way affected by WW2 whatsoever.... that was JRR.

David Gaider's claims are about as effective.

A text is consumed by readers. If all your readers feel that there was no conclusion, but the author says there was, what do you have?

George Lucas also thinks that the prequel movies were better than the originals. If the entirety of his fans disagree, then is that our interpretation, or are we wrong?

Texts exist outside an authors control, even books.

Hermen Melville did not think he was rascist for his time, he simply invented stories of black head-hunters in New Zealand because it was more interesting than the reality that they were not.

I don't care wht an author says really... I care about the text.

It's life is independent from the author.

[Leonia]

It's the writer's work, he can do with it as he pleases, fans be damned.

[Blastback]

leonia42 wrote...

It's the writer's work, he can do with it as he pleases, fans be damned.

He's approaching from an accepted literary critic point of view.  And there is some truth to it.  Once a writer, or film maker, or musician, or anyone creates a work and releases it to the public, that work is open to interpretation and meaning outside of the intent and control of the creator.  Can and should Bioware do whatever with Dragon Age, heck yes, but they can't control how we react and respond to the work, the meanings we attach to it etc..

[Brockololly]

leonia42 wrote...

WH, as you recall, was optional DLC. Not everyone had to add that to their Warden's story.

But there are plot flags that it tracks there nevertheless. I'd guess that when those flags come into play, if you didn't play WH, you'll get some default. Probably the same as Awakening's choices.

[Stoomkal]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

David Gaider?

Me, I just find the image of a "literary industry" out there full of men in smoking jackets debating over whether or not Dragon Age had a satisfactory conclusion to be incredibly amusing.

...

Really? Why?

I have never known a writer not to be interested in whether the literary profession has interest in their books.

Other teen fiction and pulp fantasy fiction are subjected to the same, whether it be Forgotten Realms, Warhammer, or Dragon Age.

Writers are, after all, writing for a community. If they were simply writing for themselves, then they would never publish.

And the idea that a text exists outside its author is well, kinda old now.

It is unfortunate that books have to have a critical reception at all, but they do, like films, tv, and my mothers cooking...

and... saying "I'm done" is different from a conclusion.

To tell the truth, Dragon Age should never have been supported after the original. It simply muddied the waters.

Adding furhter layers of continuation with WH left a big gap. Do you remember the amount of threads asking "when is part 2 of Witch Hunt coming out?"

That alone should tell you everything about the construction of your narrative and how complete it is.

[Leonia]

Blastback wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

It's the writer's work, he can do with it as he pleases, fans be damned.

He's approaching from an accepted literary critic point of view.  And there is some truth to it.  Once a writer, or film maker, or musician, or anyone creates a work and releases it to the public, that work is open to interpretation and meaning outside of the intent and control of the creator.  Can and should Bioware do whatever with Dragon Age, heck yes, but they can't control how we react and respond to the work, the meanings we attach to it etc..

I understand that, but I appreciate your more clarifying post on the matter all the same (I think the tone the other poster is posting in is just rubbing me wrong). I guess I always took issue with over-analysing the written works of others because we can never know exactly what the author's intentions/motivations/thoughts/etc. were in regards to anything they have published. It's too easy to misinterpret and twist things around to suit our own agendas but when a writer flat-out says "This is the conclusion" then I am not sure how we can argue with that. It might not seem like a conclusion to us, but we aren't the ones who wrote the piece that has been concluded by the writer so who are we to argue with him? It just seems a bit.. foolish to try and win an argument like that.

I am not asking for Bioware to control our responses to their work, I just think trying to argue with them on what is and isn't the conclusion is a bit pointless and somewhat arrogant. It sounds like the forum posters are saying: "You call that a conclusion? I don't care that you spent 5 years writing it, I don't like it so it's not the conclusion. Now go write me a real conclusion!"

Modifié par leonia42, 24 novembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Blastback]

There is no winning an argument in literary critisism. It all comes down to diffrent points of view and interpretations.



That said, I don't think that literary theory is entirly sufficient to use on video games. They are diffrent mediums, with diffrent strenghts and weaknesses. I'm unaware of any video game critical theory approaches, but still.

[KnightofPhoenix]

leonia42 wrote...
I understand that, but I appreciate your more clarifying post on the matter all the same (I think the tone the other poster is posting in is just rubbing me wrong). I guess I always took issue with over-analysing the written works of others because we can never know exactly what the author's intentions/motivations/thoughts/etc. were in regards to anything they have publish. It's too easy to misinterpret and twist things around to suit our own agendas but when a writer flat-out says "This is the conclusion" then I am not sure how we can argue with that. It might not seem like a conclusion to us, but we aren't the ones who wrote the piece that has been concluded by the writer so who are we to argue with him? It just seems a bit.. foolish to try and win an argument like that.

Yes and no.

If, let's say for instance, a writer says "This is what the character is thinking at this moment" and someone argues "No, he is thinking about something else", then there is no argument to be had about that. The writer knows the story and characters best (that doesn't mean that readers can't give their opinion and insight. Or even challenge the writers on some points, that's what made the original Star Wars trilogy great while the new one is an utter mess). 

On the otherhand, if a writer says "Ok the story is done", but a good number of readers say "Eum...well what about this? What about that? Is that it?", eeeh I think it would be more complicated than the case above. Readers have the right to say that whatever closure was given, if any, was not  adequate. That will become a judgement that readers can have, even if the writer feels it is an adequate closure. Now of course the writer can choose to not give a damn. But is that constructive really? I am not sure.

BTW these are hypothetical examples, I am not singling anyone here.  
While I do think that the Warden's story is mostly complete, I do feel like if that Warden chose a specific path (DR and / or mirror land) then there is no real closure on this rather important subplot. Now whether the writers are obligated to provide closure, or if it's even possible, that's another matter.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 novembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Leonia]

I wonder if Stoomkal is aware that Dragon Age is a franchise and the Origins was only one minor piece of it? The story isn't done. The Warden's story is done, yes, but the overall story of the Dragon Age is still soldiering on. Maybe if he realised that the sotry wasn't focused on the Warden then he wouldn't be complaining about "continuation gaps" . Also, I'd like to know what books Stoomkal wrote so I can read them.

I'm not saying I personally am satisfied with The Warden's ending, I'm not. But I don't think there's much we can really do about it. I'm all fine with interpreting and giving criticism, that's fine. But I think at some point we have to respect the writer's and trust that they know what they are doing. If we keep nit-picking, we may never truly appreciate anything. I'm not saying "Don't nit-pick", just saying "come on, not everything they did was bad, give them a little praise too."

Modifié par leonia42, 24 novembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[Maconbar]

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

 

So how many writers or members of the literary industry did you get around to asking?

[KnightofPhoenix]

leonia42 wrote...
 If we keep nit-picking, we may never truly appreciate anything. I'm not saying "Don't nit-pick", just saying "come on, not everything they did was bad, give them a little praise too."

The fact that we are whining for their story to be continued, is really the highest praise they can get.

Even if it sounds annoying and tiring at times, I bet

[Ziggeh]

leonia42 wrote...

I wonder if Stoomkal is aware that Dragon Age is a franchise and the Origins was only one minor piece of it?

That's rather important. Leaving threads loose is a useful literary tool with a few purposes but chief among them is "cliffhanger". There are more games on the way and the best advert for them is the game that preceded it.

[Stoomkal]

Maconbar wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

 

So how many writers or members of the literary industry did you get around to asking?

The ones I know.

How 'bout you?

[Blastback]

Stoomkal wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

 

So how many writers or members of the literary industry did you get around to asking?

The ones I know.

How 'bout you?

Well that isn't the least bit vague.

[Stoomkal]

leonia42 wrote...

I wonder if Stoomkal is aware that Dragon Age is a franchise and the Origins was only one minor piece of it? The story isn't done. The Warden's story is done, yes, but the overall story of the Dragon Age is still soldiering on. Maybe if he realised that the sotry wasn't focused on the Warden then he wouldn't be complaining about "continuation gaps" . Also, I'd like to know what books Stoomkal wrote so I can read them.

I'm not saying I personally am satisfied with The Warden's ending, I'm not. But I don't think there's much we can really do about it. I'm all fine with interpreting and giving criticism, that's fine. But I think at some point we have to respect the writer's and trust that they know what they are doing. If we keep nit-picking, we may never truly appreciate anything. I'm not saying "Don't nit-pick", just saying "come on, not everything they did was bad, give them a little praise too."

That is amusing.

So, if I have not written a book you know, that makes my opinion, critical or otherwise, worthless?

Ummm... wouldn't that also make your opinion worthless, too?

And I was referring to a "conclusion" not a "continuation gap".

Reading is good!

[Leonia]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
 If we keep nit-picking, we may never truly appreciate anything. I'm not saying "Don't nit-pick", just saying "come on, not everything they did was bad, give them a little praise too."

The fact that we are whining for their story to be continued, is really the highest praise they can get.

Even if it sounds annoying and tiring at times, I bet

Heh, good point KoP! But it never hurts to say a few nice things once in awhile, the forums get so clogged up with negativity on a regular basis. I'm just itching for something positive to talk about.

[Leonia]

Stoomkal wrote...

That is amusing.

So, if I have not written a book you know, that makes my opinion, critical or otherwise, worthless?

Ummm... wouldn't that also make your opinion worthless, too?

And I was referring to a "conclusion" not a "continuation gap".

Reading is good!

You're the one who said you were a writer and used that as your credentials to base your arguments on. Then you proceeded to have a go at Gaider, who actually IS a writer. So I assumed you know, you must have written some books since you are being all high-and-mighty about how to critique them. How foolish of me to assume such a thing.

[Blastback]

Stoomkal wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I wonder if Stoomkal is aware that Dragon Age is a franchise and the Origins was only one minor piece of it? The story isn't done. The Warden's story is done, yes, but the overall story of the Dragon Age is still soldiering on. Maybe if he realised that the sotry wasn't focused on the Warden then he wouldn't be complaining about "continuation gaps" . Also, I'd like to know what books Stoomkal wrote so I can read them.

I'm not saying I personally am satisfied with The Warden's ending, I'm not. But I don't think there's much we can really do about it. I'm all fine with interpreting and giving criticism, that's fine. But I think at some point we have to respect the writer's and trust that they know what they are doing. If we keep nit-picking, we may never truly appreciate anything. I'm not saying "Don't nit-pick", just saying "come on, not everything they did was bad, give them a little praise too."

That is amusing.

So, if I have not written a book you know, that makes my opinion, critical or otherwise, worthless?

Ummm... wouldn't that also make your opinion worthless, too?

And I was referring to a "conclusion" not a "continuation gap".

Reading is good!

I think that the implication was meant more that you are coming off a little like "I'm a professional writer, so I know what I'm talking about, so don't argue with me".

I'm not acussing you of saying that, but your post could be interpreted that way.

Edit: Dangit, ninja'd

Modifié par Blastback, 24 novembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[David Gaider]

Stoomkal wrote...
That alone should tell you everything about the construction of your narrative and how complete it is.

If you say so. Far be it for me to argue with the literary minds of our generation.

[Blastback]

David Gaider wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...
That alone should tell you everything about the construction of your narrative and how complete it is.

If you say so. Far be it for me to argue with the literary minds of our generation.

Why bother?  You have fans to do it for you!

[Maconbar]

Stoomkal wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

 

So how many writers or members of the literary industry did you get around to asking?

The ones I know.

How 'bout you?

How many I queried is irrelevant. You made it sound as though you asked a large number or writers and they are said that it wasn't satisfactory, which I doubt that you did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

leonia42 wrote...
Heh, good point KoP! But it never hurts to say a few nice things once in awhile, the forums get so clogged up with negativity on a regular basis. I'm just itching for something positive to talk about.

Positive things are more likely to end up off-topic these days, it seems