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Is the Warden's Story Over?


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#526
Stoomkal

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David Gaider wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...
That alone should tell you everything about the construction of your narrative and how complete it is.


If you say so. Far be it for me to argue with the literary minds of our generation.


Now, that was just childish.

I am talking about the "READERS" of your books, David.

It was a rather measured response to what is deemed troubling to a large sector of your audience.

However, it is always easy to represent an opposing argument as a negative response by a hostile hegemony obviously arrayed against you.

Anything but an *audience* huh?

#527
TJPags

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Books?  DId Gaider write a book about the Warden?  Haven't read it.

This is a game, not a book.

Either way, he wrote it.  It has ended.  Are you discussing whether it should have ended as it did, or whether it should have ended at all?

I think the bottom line is, it ended.  You don't like how it ended.  That's fair, I think even Gaider would say you're entited to that opinion. 

However, your opinion is not necessarily right.  That's the point I think you need to get.

#528
Ziggeh

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Stoomkal wrote...

a hostile hegemony obviously arrayed against you.

Your opinion is fine, criticism is a good thing, though the specific one you're leveling is fairly generic.

But good lord, please stop attributing your opinion to fictional third parties. It has the opposite effect to the one you're hoping it will upon your credibility.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 24 novembre 2010 - 02:30 .


#529
Leonia

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TJPags wrote...

Books?  DId Gaider write a book about the Warden?  Haven't read it.


Not about The Warden, no. But if you haven't read The Stolen Throne or The Calling yet, I'd highly recommend them. The second one features some Orlesian Wardens (and Duncan!).

I have a feeling, just a hunch though, that Stoomkal hasn't read them (or if he has, he has forgotten that The Warden wasn't in either).

#530
Brockololly

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Modifié par Stanley Woo, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:30 .


#531
Blastback

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Hahahahaha!! Awesome!

#532
Leonia

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Ah, Brockololly, that is brilliant! Thanks for the good chuckle.

#533
KnightofPhoenix

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Win Brock!

#534
TJPags

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leonia42 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Books?  DId Gaider write a book about the Warden?  Haven't read it.


Not about The Warden, no. But if you haven't read The Stolen Throne or The Calling yet, I'd highly recommend them. The second one features some Orlesian Wardens (and Duncan!).

I have a feeling, just a hunch though, that Stoomkal hasn't read them (or if he has, he has forgotten that The Warden wasn't in either).


I read TST.  Wasn't very impressed.

As for the literary critic, not sure what he's read.  Don't much care.  His literary pedigree - or lack of one, whichever - doesn't make his opinion any more valid than anyone else's - except maybe to him.

#535
David Gaider

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Stoomkal wrote...
I am talking about the "READERS" of your books, David.


We weren't talking about my books. A video game is not a book, and the writing is just one part of what goes into it.

It was a rather measured response to what is deemed troubling to a large sector of your audience.


The moment I think you actually speak for a large sector of our audience, I'll be glad to give you credit for it. As it is, perhaps you'd be better off simply speaking for yourself rather than indulging in a bit of ipse dixit. If you don't think DAO had a satisfactory enough ending to suit you, that's fine. I don't, however, particularly care what you do for a living, what your friends do for a living or how "measured" you think your argument is. It's an opinion, and while you're entitled to it it's certainly not shared by everyone even here-- never mind by "all" our fans.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 novembre 2010 - 02:37 .


#536
Maconbar

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TY for that one Brock. Is that the large pool of writers that have criticized the plot in DA:O?

#537
KnightofPhoenix

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Modifié par Stanley Woo, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:31 .


#538
Stoomkal

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David Gaider wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...
I am talking about the "READERS" of your books, David.


We weren't talking about my books. A video game is not a book, and the writing is just one part of what goes into it.


It was a rather measured response to what is deemed troubling to a large sector of your audience.


The moment I think you actually speak for a large sector of our audience, I'll be glad to give you credit for it. As it is, perhaps you'd be better off simply speaking for yourself rather than indulging in a bit of ipse dixit. If you don't think DAO had a satisfactory enough ending to suit you, that's fine. I don't, however, particularly care what you do for a living, what your friends do for a living or how "measured" you think your argument is. It's an opinion, and while you're entitled to it it's certainly not shared by everyone even here-- never mind by "all" our fans.


Hmmm... nice misrepresentation, David, or was that me?

In fact, you will see that everything I said was stated as *my* opinion, although the comment about writers still stands, I am afraid.

Also, you are splitting hairs. I *should* have said texts, rather than books.

However, I was talking about the writing, which you clearly understand. Anytime I make a comment on graphics or game design, feel free to critique.

Finally, whether or not a text has a conclusion or not is never a matter of opinion - it is a matter of evidence from the *text*.

It does not count on the writer's opinion, the audiences or the critics.

A cliffhangar is a conclusion, and so is a nice, neat little bow.

Origins had neither, simply a piece of advertising for a slightly related narrative set in the same world.

Simply "going home" or "dissapearing in a mirror" is about as satisfactory a conclusion as "it was all a dream".

It is a "stop" and not much else...

Vitriol will not change that.

#539
KnightofPhoenix

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Stoomkal wrote...
In fact, you will see that everything I said was stated as *my* opinion, although the comment about writers still stands, I am afraid.


Ok, here is the thing.
When you refer to a third party to support your argument, which is that DA:O was badly written, shouldn't you reference them properly? Like via quotations, links and the like?

Because without that, your comment about writers without evidence is not that relevent, I am afraid.

#540
Ziggeh

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Stoomkal wrote...

Simply "going home" or "dissapearing in a mirror" is about as satisfactory a conclusion as "it was all a dream"

Ethan Edwards, walking into the desert.

#541
Schwadragon

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Stoomkal wrote...

A cliffhangar is a conclusion, and so is a nice, neat little bow.

Origins had neither, simply a piece of advertising for a slightly related narrative set in the same world.

Simply "going home" or "dissapearing in a mirror" is about as satisfactory a conclusion as "it was all a dream".

It is a "stop" and not much else...
.


Buh? How is a cliffhanger a conclusion, and "going home" not a conclusion?

#542
Brockololly

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Modifié par Stanley Woo, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:33 .


#543
MelRedux

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Literary industry? I'm not a member of the literary industry, but I am a member of the Unicorn Industry. 75% of the magical unicorns in the unicorn industry agree that the ending of DA:O was satisfactory. Therefore any opinion from a member of the literary industry to the contrary is invalid.



Trufax.

#544
chiliztri

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Stoomkal wrote...

A cliffhangar is a conclusion, and so is a nice, neat little bow.

Origins had neither, simply a piece of advertising for a slightly related narrative set in the same world.

Simply "going home" or "dissapearing in a mirror" is about as satisfactory a conclusion as "it was all a dream".

It is a "stop" and not much else...

Vitriol will not change that.


I have to say...just because you did not find satisfaction in a particular ending, does not make it any less of an ending.

I also find what you think defines an ending quite puzzling. Previously you stated it has to be either "happily ever after" or "not happily ever after". I think what you are after is some sort of all encompassing ending which explains every loose end in the story. There are far more ways to complete a story than that, and as someone of the literary profession you should know that.

Surely you can voice your disatisfaction with the way WH and the Warden's story ended, but attempting to discredit the ending as truly being an ending because you didn't like it is just silly.

#545
Maconbar

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chiliztri wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

A cliffhangar is a conclusion, and so is a nice, neat little bow.

Origins had neither, simply a piece of advertising for a slightly related narrative set in the same world.

Simply "going home" or "dissapearing in a mirror" is about as satisfactory a conclusion as "it was all a dream".

It is a "stop" and not much else...

Vitriol will not change that.


I have to say...just because you did not find satisfaction in a particular ending, does not make it any less of an ending.

I also find what you think defines an ending quite puzzling. Previously you stated it has to be either "happily ever after" or "not happily ever after". I think what you are after is some sort of all encompassing ending which explains every loose end in the story. There are far more ways to complete a story than that, and as someone of the literary profession you should know that.

Surely you can voice your disatisfaction with the way WH and the Warden's story ended, but attempting to discredit the ending as truly being an ending because you didn't like it is just silly.




The problem is that the literary world and a majority of people in general found the ending to be terrible, at least that's what I gathered from the last few pages:P

#546
KnightofPhoenix

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Modifié par Stanley Woo, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:34 .


#547
TJPags

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chiliztri wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

A cliffhangar is a conclusion, and so is a nice, neat little bow.

Origins had neither, simply a piece of advertising for a slightly related narrative set in the same world.

Simply "going home" or "dissapearing in a mirror" is about as satisfactory a conclusion as "it was all a dream".

It is a "stop" and not much else...

Vitriol will not change that.


I have to say...just because you did not find satisfaction in a particular ending, does not make it any less of an ending.

I also find what you think defines an ending quite puzzling. Previously you stated it has to be either "happily ever after" or "not happily ever after". I think what you are after is some sort of all encompassing ending which explains every loose end in the story. There are far more ways to complete a story than that, and as someone of the literary profession you should know that.

Surely you can voice your disatisfaction with the way WH and the Warden's story ended, but attempting to discredit the ending as truly being an ending because you didn't like it is just silly.




To be fair, I didn't think the ending to WH was much of an ending either - I thought it was basically an ad for DA2.

However, I don't claim to state that as anything other than my opinion.  I also don't claim that a poll of an unkown number of undisclosed members of the literary profession agree with me, nor do I try to state that it's a fact.

#548
Merced652

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

WOW you probably are the only guy here who feels morrigans story is not worth keeping


You'd be wrong, if for no other reason than because i think the story, as it is currently for the players, is worth keeping. I'm simply saying any distortion the writers wish to bring to her story will do nothing less than diminish her time with the warden by invalidating the warden as a meaningful character. Meaning that if you wish to keep your warm and fuzzy feelings you'd be wishing she doesn't get brought back.


In the grand story of Thedas... the Warden isn't a meaningful character. The Warden is the person who kept something bad from happening, and historically speaking, those types of characters rarely get the recognition they deserve. In Ferelden, the Warden is very important, but Ferelden is doesn't seem to be an important country in Thedas.

In the story of Morrigan... the Warden is a love interest at best or a friend she knew a decade ago. If Morrigan's story was a love story, it would be a very important role, but it seems Morrigan's story is about some change coming to Thedas or her fight with Flemeth.


I find it incredibly difficult to just wave it away and call it a .. love interest. While i won't even attempt to suggest Morrigan's character was normal as you or i, but everyone has emotions. That was even validadated by Morrigan herself when she calls you 'her love.' I don't know about you, people leave impressions and even scars on each other all the time. To just blow it off and be like "yea the warden was a good screw and good for a god baby, but otherwise meh" is ridiculous to suggest. Then again i'm sure gaider is anxiously awaiting the chance to tell us that was her being manipulative during circumstances where it absolutely didn't benefit her in anyway to be manipulative.

On that same token though, i want the warden to be an outlier. I want the warden to be that special snowflake gaider can't stand. So i want the warden to matter to her if thats the way the warden was played. Token mentions, appearences, basically anything that even looks remotely like how ME2 did it and it will be the greatest injustice writing in conjunction with video games has ever seen. But at this point i'm utterly convinced they won't even attempt to pull it off. So with that all i can say is that i eagerly await the abomination(see what i did there) that will be the continuation of her story.


EDIT: To add on to, or clarify.. My point was that the greatest people this world has ever known were shaped by other people. So what i meant is that if morrigan's character isn't written in a way that reflects the warden's influence on her then it will be a travesty. The issue i see with this is that it would have to be dynamic because not every warden romanced her, let alone even befriended her, so there would have to be allowance for her character to have not have changed at all in that aspect. As i concluded my previous paragraph with, i don't believe it will even be attempted because of the difficulty and sheer amount of dialog that would have to go in to a fully voiced game. But i'll ignore my chance to snipe about VO.

Modifié par Merced652, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:55 .


#549
Stanley Woo

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Please don't spam our forums with images intended to belittle or insult other community members, and let's try to get back on topic. Thank you.

#550
ejoslin

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Merced652 wrote...
I find it incredibly difficult to just wave it away and call it a .. love interest. While i won't even attempt to suggest Morrigan's character was normal as you or i, but everyone has emotions. That was even validadated by Morrigan herself when she calls you 'her love.' I don't know about you, people leave impressions and even scars on each other all the time. To just blow it off and be like "yea the warden was a good screw and good for a god baby, but otherwise meh" is ridiculous to suggest. Then again i'm sure gaider is anxiously awaiting the chance to tell us that was her being manipulative during circumstances where it absolutely didn't benefit her in anyway to be manipulative.

On that same token though, i want the warden to be an outlier. I want the warden to be that special snowflake gaider can't stand. So i want the warden to matter to her if thats the way the warden was played. Token mentions, appearences, basically anything that even looks remotely like how ME2 did it and it will be the greatest injustice writing in conjunction with video games has ever seen. But at this point i'm utterly convinced they won't even attempt to pull it off. So with that all i can say is that i eagerly await the abomination(see what i did there) that will be the continuation of her story.


Love interest does not equal "good screw but meh".  All the love interests in DAO actually lead to love, if you stay with them.  Of course, if Morrigan fell in love with your warden, she had feelings for him.  Strong feelings of love.  As did Leliana, Alistair, and Zevran, if you instead pursued their romances.  

Actually, DAO's love stories may have been too good. People really have developed emotional connections to their wardens, probably in a huge part because their warden was in love with, and was loved by, a really amazing person.  That you saved Ferelden with them at your side made it even better.

Edit; I am really hoping the love stories are as good in DA2 as they are in DAO.  It just adds so much to the story, whether it's a happy or a tragic ending.

Alistair has a huge potential to end up tragically as well.  In an absolutely beautiful way.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:42 .