724 réponses à ce sujet

[chiliztri]

TJPags wrote...

To be fair, I didn't think the ending to WH was much of an ending either - I thought it was basically an ad for DA2.

However, I don't claim to state that as anything other than my opinion.  I also don't claim that a poll of an unkown number of undisclosed members of the literary profession agree with me, nor do I try to state that it's a fact.

In all honesty, I did not think much of how WH ended either. I believe it could have been done with more tact and elegance.

However, that doesn't change that it was in fact an ending, albeit in the opinion of some(I don't claim to know the exact amount of people who liked or disliked it) it wasn't the best. The main point I was attempting to make is that no amount of arguing or logical fallacies will make that untrue. Whether the ending was any good is up for debate, and far be it from me to stop others from voicing their opinions on the matter.

[Brockololly]

Eh, Witch Hunt's ending as being "THE" ending for all Wardens was fairly weak. If you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian it was pretty good, but for everyone else it was like watching a movie and having the power go out and fade to black. It just kind of stopped- same deal with Awakening, strolling away from the Mother.

[Maconbar]

Brockololly wrote...

Eh, Witch Hunt's ending as being "THE" ending for all Wardens was fairly weak. If you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian it was pretty good, but for everyone else it was like watching a movie and having the power go out and fade to black. It just kind of stopped- same deal with Awakening, strolling away from the Mother.

I would generally agree. Although WH with the through the Eluvian ending seemed more like a segue to me. As endings go I prefer the plain old DA:O warden ending.

[David Gaider]

chiliztri wrote...
Whether the ending was any good is up for debate, and far be it from me to stop others from voicing their opinions on the matter.

Indeed.

All I was addressing was the idea of the story being about Morrigan and the need for the Warden as a PC being the only way it was possible for that story to continue. I get people wanting more, and I get people having an emotional connection. If someone wants to say they found their particular ending unsatisfactory, well okay-- fair enough. That wasn't the argument in particular, but if someone feels the need to point that out they're free to do so.

Nobody knows how we're continuing that story except for the fact that DA2 is not about the Warden at all. It's about Hawke. It's a new hero and a continuation of the story we wish to tell from another hero's perspective. Grandiose critiques of our storytelling ability aside, we'll continue the tale as we feel it's best to do so.

And I'll leave it at that. Please play nicely.

[Leonia]

chiliztri wrote...

TJPags wrote...

To be fair, I didn't think the ending to WH was much of an ending either - I thought it was basically an ad for DA2.

However, I don't claim to state that as anything other than my opinion.  I also don't claim that a poll of an unkown number of undisclosed members of the literary profession agree with me, nor do I try to state that it's a fact.

In all honesty, I did not think much of how WH ended either. I believe it could have been done with more tact and elegance.

However, that doesn't change that it was in fact an ending, albeit in the opinion of some(I don't claim to know the exact amount of people who liked or disliked it) it wasn't the best. The main point I was attempting to make is that no amount of arguing or logical fallacies will make that untrue. Whether the ending was any good is up for debate, and far be it from me to stop others from voicing their opinions on the matter.

Yep, this is essentially what I was trying to say earlier (but failed to put it so eloquently).  Also, I'll just plug my blog entry again since it's about continuing the Warden's story/how would you handle the Warden's ending: http://social.biowar...598/blog/11413/ I'm quite curious to see what ya'll come up with.

[Morroian]

Stoomkal wrote...

I do not know a single writer or member of the literary industry who thinks that the story of the Warden has any kind of "satisfactory conclusion".

Which writers? You'll have to cite someone to have any credibility.

Stoomkal wrote...
It is a matter of judging, as a writer or a reader, whether a story has come to any kind of CONCLUSION.

Anyone who is trying to argue that WH provided any kind of ending, at all, is simply arguing a farcical point.

It is an "end" not a "conclusion".

It is, in fact, leaving alot hanging in the wind. Stories need to end with a full stop.

No they don't, you'll find any number of 'literary' authors that don't have conclusions like what you're arguing for. Yes I want to see what happens to my Warden who romanced Morrigan but it will be as part of a separate story/game not a continuation of DAO and WH

[upsettingshorts]

I'm willing to bet "members of the literary industry" refers to dudes working in the mail room at Simon & Schuster.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 novembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Bryy_Miller]

chiliztri wrote...

In all honesty, I did not think much of how WH ended either. I believe it could have been done with more tact and elegance.

wait whut?

[Oloos]

For those who want the warden to came back, you should try to see the saga in a new perspective.

For me, DAO isn't really the Story of my Warden(s). It's more the story of the Blight of the Dragon Age. And i think DA2 will be also the story of a big event in the Dragon Age, with Hawke in the middle. And a potential DA3 game could be about another big event with a main protagonist completly different of the Warden or Hawke (morrigan's child maybe ?).

Think "world story" instead of "single hero story" is better i guess.


PS : Sorry for my bad english.

[Huntress]

vilnii wrote...

I do not see what the Obsession with the Warden is frankly...every hero has a time and place depending on circumstances in the larger world....

However concepts like the Old god Baby (OGB) which seem to be an afterthought that caught on fire need to be made canon somehow so that its possibilities may be fully explored

That OGB concept, an old god in a human vessel, is so powerful it should have been the vehicle for bringing change to the world in DA2 in my mind

I do not see the Obesession about Morrigan baby, many players did the US so, that baby doesn't exits to them, shouldn't appear for them.

If some players did the US then, there is no God-baby, stay focus, there is NO Canon in Dragon age.

Dragon age Origen finish after the warden killed the arch-demon, thats all you need to be happy about.

[Utoryo]

Maybe it would be better to preemptively move our requests in another direction: can we hope for Hawke to get a satisfying closure ultimately? I know the writing for DA2 is done by now (I guess you could maybe still polish epilogue text, but I don't necessarily count on that) so I'm not talking about DA2 itself, but rather 'final' DLC or any potential expansion (or even DA3, although sincerly I'd rather see them move to yet another character).

David, I know you're not a big fan of 'finishing stories' (see: your comments on Witch Hunt iirc), and I appreciate that, but as I hope some of the more reasonable commenters here have explained quite nicely, there's a big difference between a DA:O-like epilogue and a DA:A-like epilogue. The former leaves the hero's future to the player's imagination without causing any real complications for future stories, whereas DA:A removes agency by forcing a future (the Warden's disappearance) on the player despite, as per your own admission, little chance of ever playing that event as the Warden him/herself.

While there may be a wonderful story reason for that, it's still not as satisfying to the player as just leaving things open (by not giving any indications of anything that might happen more than a few years out, e.g. "at least for some years"). And ironically, it's also worse for you because it forces you to decide what happens potentially years (real-life time) before it has any impact in your games. If you had a great idea for why the Warden should suddenly disappear and leave everything behind, that's wonderful - but there's really no benefit to letting us know that before it actually has an impact on the story we are currently playing. At least for me (I don't know about others), it doesn't create dramatic tension; it's just less satisfying because it removes some of the wonderful appearance of agency you've worked the entire game to create as a writer.

What's done is done for the Warden, and this may appear a minor point not worth attention in the grand scheme of things (isn't everything?) , but it would be wonderful if you could think about how to improve that for Hawke. Thanks!

(can I pretend my Hawke is red because he's a blood mage in the Destiny trailer? No? Ah well!)

Modifié par Utoryo, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[In Exile]

Stoomkal wrote...
A cliffhangar is a conclusion, and so is a nice, neat little bow.

Origins had neither, simply a piece of advertising for a slightly related narrative set in the same world.

Simply "going home" or "dissapearing in a mirror" is about as satisfactory a conclusion as "it was all a dream".

It is a "stop" and not much else...

Vitriol will not change that.

....

From the wikipedia link on cliffhangers:

The idea of ending a tale at a point where the audience is left in
suspense as to its conclusion (which, in most cases, is then given at
another time) may have been a staple part of storytelling for almost as
long as the idea of stories have existed.

So, err.... right now, DA:O (with regarding to the Morrigan storyline) ended on a cliffhanger. If a cliffhanger (which is the absence of a conclusion) is somehow a conclusion (mind...breaking...but...must...go on!), then DA:O certainly had a conclusion by its lack of a conclusion.

[In Exile]

Utoryo wrote...
David, I know you're not a big fan of 'finishing stories' (see: your comments on Witch Hunt iirc), and I appreciate that, but as I hope some of the more reasonable commenters here have explained quite nicely, there's a big difference between a DA:O-like epilogue and a DA:A-like epilogue. The former leaves the hero's future to the player's imagination without causing any real complications for future stories, whereas DA:A removes agency by forcing a future (the Warden's disappearance) on the player despite, as per your own admission, little chance of ever playing that event as the Warden him/herself.

I think you have to consider the issue of where the franchise is, too. It's easy to write a definitive conclusion for DA:O if you aren't sure the setting will continue or not (i.e. Warden is king/dead/paragon/first enchanter/whatever).

The problem, with having to continue the world, is that when you have such a variable, empty blank slate protagonist, things have to get swept under the rug for the story to make sense.

Look at what DA:A did - it told you the Warden gives a damn about being a Grey Warden and would care enough (and be interested in) taking actual command of the Warden's in Ferelden to hunt darkspawn. That's a big case of overwriting relative to some PCs. Big part of why I don't like Awakening - it's just the story my PCs would never have been a part of.

I thought the idea of a the vanishing Warden was, basically, so the player could "fill-in" some super adventures for the Warden alone while the writers could go on writing in the setting without worrying about variable hero.

[Utoryo]

In Exile wrote...
I think you have to consider the issue of where the franchise is, too. It's easy to write a definitive conclusion for DA:O if you aren't sure the setting will continue or not (i.e. Warden is king/dead/paragon/first enchanter/whatever).

Right, which is why I took the example of the DA:O epilogues as being better in that respect - they are open-ended *and* do not have excessive influence on the rest of the world. Some of them could be made more satisfying (perhaps by increasing the feeling of agency by adding even more variations based on extra player dialogue post-coronation), but it's not a bad start, unlike the DA:A epilogues. You really don't have to be as specific as 'The Warden is now promoted to First Enchanter, a role he will keep for the next 20 years'.

I thought the idea of a the vanishing Warden was, basically, so the player could "fill-in" some super adventures for the Warden alone while the writers could go on writing in the setting without worrying about variable hero.

I understand that was probably the intention, but my point is it didn't work for me and it seems it didn't work for a number of other people either given a few posts I've read in this thread (I don't know how prevalent this sentiment is; after all, these are still only anecdotes and most players won't have spent that much time reflecting on the still fairly vague epilogue). And that's not just a phrasing problem, but a problem of intention

What I'm saying basically is that it's not a good idea to spend all that effort (writing-wise) to give a feeling of agency to the player through dozens and dozens of hours of gameplay, only to remove it at the last second. There is no way you can justify all possible types of Wardens (personality-wise) disappearing voluntarily for basically the same reason; some of their lifetime goals must simply be too different. Or is it unvoluntary, and it's a nefarious plot by an unknown villain like Irenicus in BG2:SoA?

If it *is* a BG2:SoA-like reason, then personally I feel it was perfect how the game started with the revelation that you are suddenly powerless. Do you think either the ending of BG1 or the start of BG2 would have been as satisfying if BG1 had ended with the revelation that you were about to disappear, be captured and then tortured horribly? Personally, I don't think so. And I (naively perhaps) assume that Bioware hadn't yet decided how BG2 would start when they finished BG1, or perhaps even if you'd follow the same character again. So strongly hinting beyond the near-term future at the end of BG1 would not have created more dramatic tension, it wouldn't have made anything easier for the writers, and it certainly wouldn't have made you feel any better about the game you just played in any way.

For non-interactive media, or games where you don't have as strong a sense of agency, it can make sense (both marketing-wise and story-wise) to end with vague hints of what is to follow even if it diminishes the relative importance of what just happened. But for Dragon Age, I think there is very little reason to do so.

[Maria Caliban]

vilnii wrote...

On the Old god baby, I still beg to differ...

Did you see the explosion when the archdemon Uthermiel died? Did you see it?

Can you now imagine all that power inside a child?

Phenomenal indeed!

BioWare dumbed-down streamlined the Old God soul so it would function in a lesser form.

[AndrahilAdrian]

The Warden is getting Revan'd. If Bioware wanted to continue his story they would obviously do so in Dragon Age 2, not pick up on it again in DA3 or whatever. The best we can hope for is some codex entry that varies based on your choices. As for Morrigan (who everyone seems to associate with the Warden for some reason, as though they can't have independant roles in the story), I imagine she'll get a mention or two from Flemeth, but she won't appear in DA2 because Claudia Black isn't doing any voiceovers. When the devs talk about finishing Morrigan's story, I imagine they are talking about her son, who might get a sidequest or something for those players who took that route. Don't get too excited though, because Bioware won't create an elaborate story that players can only enjoy if they made a specific choice in a previous game.

[Dama Oscura]

I would like to see at least my character next to Alistair on 1 scene as his wife... u_u because obviously I chosed that path... even if she doens't says anything but doing an memorial appearance or something.. if Alistair is going to appear it would be nice!

[thenemesis77]

When does a PC of a game become no more then a footnote? That is what the Warden will be from here on out, it's not hard to see where you guys are going t carry this story, it's if we built up a character for nothing, to only build Hawke and what......in DA3 to build up a new PC, that just watered down shots that don't have the same push as they don't have that same play with characters that knew the PCs before.



You as the player know Flemeth, Morrigan on a more personal level with the Warden and would cause for why they would want to either help or stop what they are up too, but a new PC that has not built a personal trust with the player is to have the same effect? Why is it that you guys seem to change the idea of a PC that will carry over? What is so bad about that? I 'am not saying that Hawke is bad, but he will not know of Flemeth like the Warden did and as a player of the first game..as Hawke, I will have to act as if I don't know this lady...but I will and that will change how I talk with her and deal with her, for I know how she was with the Warden, but I bet David would tell me to act as if I didn't know her.



From what I can gather you hope over time that us that like the Warden just give up and go away, well you might get what you want, you hope that over time this goes away and hell it might for some, to me the Warden was a more important person then what you had for him/her, David. As you would say it's just a personal lach, no the Warden helped to make Dragon Age and don't forget that, please.



David, I know you don't like a PC that will carry over, but how do you build lore with no kind of character depth? I bet you have a great way around it.

[Bryy_Miller]

thenemesis77 wrote...
David, I know you don't like a PC that will carry over, but how do you build lore with no kind of character depth? I bet you have a great way around it.

I know that you're talking to David, but if I may interject: you don't need one single character to build a world. Things still exist without the Warden around.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 25 novembre 2010 - 04:28 .

[Leonia]

The Warden was not "The Chosen One" or anything.

[Morroian]

thenemesis77 wrote...

When does a PC of a game become no more then a footnote? That is what the Warden will be from here on out, it's not hard to see where you guys are going t carry this story, it's if we built up a character for nothing,

You built him/her up for DAO and Awakenings. Is that nothing?

thenemesis77 wrote...

David, I know you don't like a PC that will carry over, but how do you build lore with no kind of character depth? I bet you have a great way around it.

So if DAO didn't have a sequel it wouldn't have any depth because its only 1 game?

[Atakuma]

I'm sure the warden will be back; Those errands wont run themselves.

[Ziggeh]

Atakuma wrote...

I'm sure the warden will be back; Those errands wont run themselves.

If my chap hadn't bought it fighting an ancient god he would apparently have taken up an administrative position within the Warden hierachy and gotten involved in local politics.

That is definitely gameplay I want to see more of within RPGs. Bookeeping, minor dispute resolution, court gossip. Tell me there isn't potential there?