724 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

leonia42 wrote...

Well, yeah The Warden isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, but don't downplay what they accomplished. Stopping a Blight before it truly began is not something to sneeze at.

It's all fluke. What Garahel did was heroic, because the blight had actually overrun the land and he had to raise an army to defeat the darkspawn & archdemon, and fought a real campaign against them.

The Warden wasn't just at the right place and at the right time, but was lucky enough that the stupid stunt that Riordan pulled actually worked instead of led to him going splat against the pavement. If the archdemon is flying, I'm not seeing how Alistiar/Loghain or the Warden kill it.

The Warden doesn't even lead the military campaign. It seems that Aemon or Anora/Alistair do.

Brockololly wrote...

Which is why the Dark Ritual Warden
is even more impressive as he/she is the ONLY Warden to defeat a Blight
while surviving.

More to the point, it is handled about as stupidly in-game as ME1 tried to handle the death of the Council and  a human replacement for it (either all human or not).

The Wardens, who know a great deal about the blight, wouldn't write this under fluke. They would assume the Warden did something unnatural to make this work.

Modifié par In Exile, 26 novembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote..
The Wardens, who know a great deal about the blight, wouldn't write this under fluke. They would assume the Warden did something unnatural to make this work.

Which is why I'm bummed that its likely not going to be followed through in any way without the Warden coming back. It would have been great fodder for an expack to have a quest or something with the Wardens investigating the DR Warden. Its even hinted at at the end of Origins when you talk to Alistair or Loghain.

Modifié par Brockololly, 26 novembre 2010 - 05:15 .

[ace100000]

Brockololly wrote...

Which is why the Dark Ritual Warden
is even more impressive as he/she is the ONLY Warden to defeat a Blight
while surviving.



The Wardens, who know a great deal about the blight, wouldn't write this under fluke. They would assume the Warden did something unnatural to make this work.

see here are two of some of  the reasons i feel the warden shouldn't be cast off just yet. there are many things that others would like the warden to answer to , like , how he defeated the blight while keeping him and the other wardens in his party alive. there are also some explanations the warden would like to have like what morrigan really plans for the OGB for which the warden is directly or indirectly responsible.

Modifié par ace100000, 26 novembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Which is why I'm bummed that its likely not going to be followed through in any way without the Warden coming back. It would have been great fodder for an expack to have a quest or something with the Wardens investigating the DR Warden. Its even hinted at at the end of Origins when you talk to Alistair or Loghain.

The problem with this is that the entire game would be predicated on the DR taking place. It's no different than having a godbaby game. Bioware would have to declare cannon to do it.

Frankly, I think the problem was Alistair. We needed another Warden who could have developed a thing for Morrigain to survive (or for Alistair to have been less antagonistic toward her, so that he could havve been seduced). That way, Bioware could lock-in the DR without overriding agency.

My hope was always a godbaby PC in DA2 with PC VO. Halfway there with Hawke, I guess.

At any rate, I'm glad they removed the Warden from the story. It was impossible for them to do justice to everyone's character, especially since Bioware seems to think players wanted to be Grey Wardens.

Modifié par In Exile, 26 novembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[Utoryo]

Let's not get facts in the way, but...
- There are more Grey Wardens in Orlais and the Empire' army is likely well prepared, but if Ferelden falls completely, then the Darkspawn will likely *increase* their numbers through new brood mothers. Just look at the massive numbers generated by Branka's single brood mother, or the few at Kal'Hirol. This Blight was not just easier because the Archdemon was a moron; it was easier because, despite the odds, you did manage to react in time ("ended before it truly began" as the game says, I think).
- Return to Ostagar teaches us that even Cailan knew defeat was a real possibility (even if he evidently didn't think it most likely). And as a companion, Loghain insists that it was hopeless no matter what and he would do it again. He is clearly biased and may be rationalising the situation, but it's certainly not as clear-cut as some would like it to be.

In Exile wrote...
The Warden wasn't just at the right place and at the right time, but was
lucky enough that the stupid stunt that Riordan pulled actually worked
instead of led to him going splat against the pavement. If the archdemon is flying, I'm not seeing how Alistiar/Loghain or the Warden kill it.

Except that probably no Grey Warden anywhere had a much better plan except maybe one involving overwhelming force (which you didn't have). Remember they had griffons for a reason in the previous blights. Also remember that the Archdemon's form and size are not very different from a High Dragon, and these gladly engage you in close combat voluntarily (both ingame and in the Sacred Ashes trailer where it's more difficult to pretend it's a technical limitation) - so  while Riordan's stupidly risky stunt did help a lot, it certainly was not a deus ex machina saving the game's entire plot.

The Warden doesn't even lead the military campaign. It seems that Aemon or Anora/Alistair do.

Kinda, because some dialogue choices very clearly let you lead the military campaign - it's just not reflected in the actual game which is a shame. Here is my dialogue path for the end of the Landsmeet with a female Mage Warden romancing Alistair. I assume some other paths lead to this dialogue too, but just to be sure:
1) Kill Loghain yourself (this makes him less decisive on whether to be king, might influence this too)
2) When you interrupt Alistair's (rather hilariously terrible) speech, say "Shut up and put on the damn crown."
3) Alistair will then appoint Eamon as Regent (also not reflected in the game) and will finally say, word for word: "My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies. Shall we finish this thing together?" - to which all replies basically confirm you accept that role.

The Wardens, who know a great
deal about the blight, wouldn't write this under fluke. They would
assume the Warden did something unnatural to make this work.

Here I actually agree completely. Alistair's suggestion to 'shrug and look stupid' is unlikely to work, no matter how good he is at it.

However, it is possible that they assume you're lying, and it's really Riordan who made the finishing blow. They'd be eternally mistrusful of you (sadly doesn't make a lot of sense given DA:A) because they'd conclude you're taking all the glory out of another man's sacrifice, but that'd still be better than them discovering what really happened.

[In Exile]

Utoryo wrote...

Let's not get facts in the way, but...
- There are more Grey Wardens in Orlais and the Empire' army is likely well prepared, but if Ferelden falls completely, then the Darkspawn will likely *increase* their numbers through new brood mothers. Just look at the massive numbers generated by Branka's single brood mother, or the few at Kal'Hirol. This Blight was not just easier because the Archdemon was a moron; it was easier because, despite the odds, you did manage to react in time ("ended before it truly began" as the game says, I think).

Here is the truth: the blight seems to be an issue because they Grey Wardens lie. They lie about why they exist, and they lie about how to defeat the blight. The fact of the matter is that a blight depends entirely on an archdemon, and only the Grey Wardens can kill it. Once a blight starts, nothing beside the dragon matters. Engaging the darkspawn in battle only has value insofar as you can find and kill the archdemon.

It seems that, when reading descriptions of the old blights, the Grey Wardens just sucked at finding the archdemon. It's actually really silly when you think about it, since in the past they had flying mounts, and really the best strategy would have been to raise a host of 1000 Wardens and just fly to engage the archdemon.

You either force it to fly up and engage you, or you track the host until your army engages it and then attack the archdemon then. Hell, if the archdemon doesn't attack you, you can just hage 100 or so mage wardens rain fireballs of DEATH from the sky non-stop to defeat the darkspawn that way.

Except that probably no Grey Warden anywhere had a much better plan except maybe one involving overwhelming force (which you didn't have). Remember they had griffons for a reason in the previous blights.

Let's not even get into the sort of spectacular stupidity it takes to breed a race into extinction. That's should be symbol #1 of Grey Warden incompetence, but really, given their mondus operandi this is isn't much of a surprise.

Also remember that the Archdemon's form and size are not very different from a High Dragon, and these gladly engage you in close combat voluntarily (both ingame and in the Sacred Ashes trailer where it's more difficult to pretend it's a technical limitation) - so  while Riordan's stupidly risky stunt did help a lot, it certainly was not a deus ex machina saving the game's entire plot.

The Dragon engaging you in battle voluntary is a deus ex machina. You know how a dragon can kill people efficiently? Grab one (it does this already). Then fly. Then drop the meat sack. Not only are you going to tenderize your lunch, but you're going to stop it from stabbing you.

Seriously, the Grey Warden + Alistair/Loghain succeed because of the fact this is a game and they get HP bars. Fundamentally, this is the achievement of the Warden.

Kinda, because some dialogue choices very clearly let you lead the military campaign - it's just not reflected in the actual game which is a shame. Here is my dialogue path for the end of the Landsmeet with a female Mage Warden romancing Alistair. I assume some other paths lead to this dialogue too, but just to be sure:
1) Kill Loghain yourself (this makes him less decisive on whether to be king, might influence this too)
2) When you interrupt Alistair's (rather hilariously terrible) speech, say "Shut up and put on the damn crown."
3) Alistair will then appoint Eamon as Regent (also not reflected in the game) and will finally say, word for word: "My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies. Shall we finish this thing together?" - to which all replies basically confirm you accept that role.

Anora names you leader of the armies too. Then Eamon/Alistair gives the orders to march on Denerim, Anora/Alistair gives the dramatic speech and order to attack (for Ferelden), and you don't actually set up strategy for the battle at all, and Riordan tells you how to split up you our loyal squad.

In fact, even if we say the Warden is commander of Fereden, despite the evidence against this, the Warden most certainly is not in charge of the multinational force. Unlike Garahel. The slightly better hero (using this word loosely, because he is a Grey Warden, and they really suck at their jobs).

Seriously, you follow instructions to the letter, like the good errand boy you were for the entire game.

THere I actually agree completely. Alistair's suggestion to 'shrug and look stupid' is unlikely to work, no matter how good he is at it.

He's very good at it, so I think trusting Alistair to look stupid is not a bad plan.

However, it is possible that they assume you're lying, and it's really Riordan who made the finishing blow. They'd be eternally mistrusful of you (sadly doesn't make a lot of sense given DA:A) because they'd conclude you're taking all the glory out of another man's sacrifice, but that'd still be better than them discovering what really happened.

The problem with that is the idiotically high number of witnesses who say you shove a greatsword up the archdemon... well, you get it. That so many people insist that Riordan was not even present at the time the archdemon was fought would suggest, plainly, that something else is going on.

[Utoryo]

In Exile wrote...

It seems that, when reading descriptions of the old blights, the Grey Wardens just sucked at finding the archdemon. It's actually really silly when you think about it, since in the past they had flying mounts, and really the best strategy would have been to raise a host of 1000 Wardens and just fly to engage the archdemon.

I see your point, but keep in mind the Archdemon is much smarter than even a High Dragon and it can give orders to individual generals directly (see: Darkspawn Chronicles).

There is a good argument to made that the only reason you got to fight the archdemon is it got overconfident in its success. If you side with the Werewolves, you meet the Lady of the Forest at Redcliffe before the battle, and of the Archdemon she says word for word: "He knows you come, Grey Warden. He bellows his challenge at you even now, daring you to approach. Daring all of us." - if taken literally, this likely means that from the Archdemon's perspective, Denerim is a trap - a trap for you, to kill the last remaining Wardens and complete its conquest of Ferelden. He had no need to act personally otherwise. And as implied by the events at Ostagar, the Archdemon can even order the Darkspawn horde to attack a specific location without being present itself at the time of the battle (or at least extremely well hidden).

Presumably in the earlier Blights, the Archdemons would understand the risk posed by the Grey Wardens and be much more cautious, making it harder to find it. This is a bit of a rationalisation, but it is a very plausible one, don't you think?

Let's not even get into the sort of spectacular stupidity it takes to breed a race into extinction. That's should be symbol #1 of Grey Warden incompetence, but really, given their mondus operandi this is isn't much of a surprise.

I agree completely. I certainly hope there is a story behind this, explaining why exactly the griffons are gone. Were they used against the Qunari and slain in excessive numbers perhaps? Hmm. I don't think we really know how involved some Grey Wardens might have been in that war. Still seems pretty silly to risk losing all of them that way, though.

The Dragon engaging you in battle voluntary is a deus ex machina. You know how a dragon can kill people efficiently? Grab one (it does this already). Then fly. Then drop the meat sack. Not only are you going to tenderize your lunch, but you're going to stop it from stabbing you.

Hehe, that's fun - and certainly true enough. I suppose this kind of thing can be rationalised in the lore - maybe dragons are much more vulnerable when in flight and so try not to fly too much in combat? But... yeah, it is a small deus ex machina whether it's in the lore or not. Which goes nicely to your second point:

Seriously, the Grey Warden + Alistair/Loghain succeed because of the fact this is a game and they get HP bars. Fundamentally, this is the achievement of the Warden.

Hah! Well, this is still a fantasy game you know. I love the fact they are striving for realism in the story and the world as a whole unlike many other fantasy settings, but when it comes to combat, fun is still the most important thing in the end. If you can't stand that kind of thing, feel free to go play some FPS on the maximum difficulty where you'll die permanently after two or three bullets

Anora names you leader of the armies too. Then Eamon/Alistair gives the orders to march on Denerim, Anora/Alistair gives the dramatic speech and order to attack (for Ferelden), and you don't actually set up strategy for the battle at all, and Riordan tells you how to split up you our loyal squad.

Yes, I know, what I meant is that the dialogue choices lead me to suspect that it was originally intended to be a decision/consequence of your actions how much control you'd have over the military strategy (not that it'd have changed much I assume, just one or two cut-scenes maybe). In Alistair's case, there is definitively one dialogue path that leads to him mentioning you being the leader of the army, and another which where he is more decisive and he seems to take that responsibility. There is just no change whatsoever afterwards based on that. I think it shows the writers' original intentions better than what actually happens; they probably did not intend for the Warden to always be little more than a passive observer.

In Alistair's case, in the specific path where you tell him to shut up and put on the crown (but not in all others, if even any other!), he chooses Eamon as his regent. Presumably that was also intended as Eamon staying in Denerim rather than going back to Redcliffe, with all that implies. However there is not a single difference afterwards based on that, and once again I'd guess that is also because of a lack of development resources (i.e. time to implement it before the end of the project).

The problem with that is the idiotically high number of witnesses who say you shove a greatsword up the archdemon... well, you get it. That so many people insist that Riordan was not even present at the time the archdemon was fought would suggest, plainly, that something else is going on.

Ah yes, I forgot there also was your choice of reinforcement from the army up on that tower fighting with you. Yeah, then I don't see what you could do besides letting Alistair shrug/look stupid. I guess the Grey Wardens would indeed conclude that something fishy went on, although they wouldn't necessarily conclude that it was the Warden's fault or that he/she even knew what it was. Hmm...

Modifié par Utoryo, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[Dama Oscura]

well as I said... it would be nice to see the queen of Ferelden next to the king... it doens't matter she doens't have to talk... just to see the royal couple together...

[errant_knight]

Dama Oscura wrote...

well as I said... it would be nice to see the queen of Ferelden next to the king... it doens't matter she doens't have to talk... just to see the royal couple together...

 That's assuming that we see Alistair as the king, we may only see him if he isn't. Depends on if Ferelden is involved in this at all.

[TJPags]

errant_knight wrote...

Dama Oscura wrote...

well as I said... it would be nice to see the queen of Ferelden next to the king... it doens't matter she doens't have to talk... just to see the royal couple together...

 That's assuming that we see Alistair as the king, we may only see him if he isn't. Depends on if Ferelden is involved in this at all.

I better not see Alistair with a crown on his head in DA2 . . . . I've never made him king.

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

The Dragon engaging you in battle voluntary is a deus ex machina. You know how a dragon can kill people efficiently? Grab one (it does this already). Then fly. Then drop the meat sack. Not only are you going to tenderize your lunch, but you're going to stop it from stabbing you.

Deus ex machina does not mean 'unbelievable,' 'unrealistic,' or even 'suspiciously convenient for the protagonists.'

A deus ex machina (Latin for "god out of the machine") is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

[Dama Oscura]

errant_knight wrote...

Dama Oscura wrote...

well as I said... it would be nice to see the queen of Ferelden next to the king... it doens't matter she doens't have to talk... just to see the royal couple together...

 That's assuming that we see Alistair as the king, we may only see him if he isn't. Depends on if Ferelden is involved in this at all.

hahaha right... but I guess the team took the 2 options... Anora or Alistair for the matter...

TJPags wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

 That's assuming that we see Alistair as the king, we may only see him if he isn't. Depends on if Ferelden is involved in this at all.

I better not see Alistair with a crown on his head in DA2 . . . . I've never made him king.

oh well I'm sure you will have Anora as ruler of Ferelden then.. O.o assuming that you will see them in the first place...

[Zjarcal]

TJPags wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Dama Oscura wrote...

well as I said... it would be nice to see the queen of Ferelden next to the king... it doens't matter she doens't have to talk... just to see the royal couple together...

 That's assuming that we see Alistair as the king, we may only see him if he isn't. Depends on if Ferelden is involved in this at all.

I better not see Alistair with a crown on his head in DA2 . . . . I've never made him king.

You won't. The devs have said that Alistair's cameo will vary according to your choices.

[Dave of Canada]

Zjarcal wrote...

You won't. The devs have said that Alistair's cameo will vary according to your choices.

Drunk Alistair will have a crown for being the Drunken King of the Faeries.

[Spawny]

I'd buy the game just to see that!

[Maria Caliban]

Zjarcal wrote...

You won't. The devs have said that Alistair's cameo will vary according to your choices.

Because I don't feel guilty enough *already.*

[Merced652]

If Riordan is what you're calling a dues ex machina then you're going to have to relabel every fortunate circumstance that has ever taken place in recorded history as such. You can even use your example of why his "******" move might have actually been calculated. If he knew they had no way to force the dragon to engage them then he probably felt obligated to do exactly what he did. I'm sure he didn't plan on dying like he did, but i'm pretty sure an aim of his, be it the first or last, was to render it flightless.



As for the canonization of the DR, i wish it would happen and they already have their avenue for making it happen through Riordan. He was alive that same night, and morrigan was supposed to be this epic seductress and queen of manipulation. The only retconing would be in some kind of explanation of why US wardens died.



Also, i may be mistaken but when alistar asks you how you survived you have the option of telling him it was morrigan's magic. I don't remember if loghain asks or if you have the ability to tell him, but it was never a secret to your followers of who morrigan's mother was. If the warden's inquired as to how it happened they would certainly have a strong clue. Whether they would care is for Gaider and the crew the come up with. Assuming of course Gaider would grace us with writing a game such as that. Which i doubt for whatever reason.

[Zjarcal]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

You won't. The devs have said that Alistair's cameo will vary according to your choices.

Drunk Alistair will have a crown for being the Drunken King of the Faeries.

Oh, I didn't know people were referring to any sort of crown...

In that case, he's gonna steal this guy's crown:

[GodWood]

Merced652 wrote...
As for the canonization of the DR, i wish it would happen and they already have their avenue for making it happen through Riordan. He was alive that same night, and morrigan was supposed to be this epic seductress and queen of manipulation. The only retconing would be in some kind of explanation of why US wardens died. 

Morrigan explains that Riordan was tainted for too long thus the ritual wouldn't work with him.

[Merced652]

GodWood wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
As for the canonization of the DR, i wish it would happen and they already have their avenue for making it happen through Riordan. He was alive that same night, and morrigan was supposed to be this epic seductress and queen of manipulation. The only retconing would be in some kind of explanation of why US wardens died. 

Morrigan explains that Riordan was tainted for too long thus the ritual wouldn't work with him.

I must've never picked that dialog option

[Utoryo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Deus ex machina does not mean 'unbelievable,' 'unrealistic,' or even 'suspiciously convenient for the protagonists.'

Agreed, I really shouldn't have said it was a 'small deus ex machina' myself - the whole "dragons cannot fly while holding you" is still awfully convenient though, and I don't think there could be a perfect explanation even if you explained it in a codex.

Of course, I suppose there is a historical reason for this in the real world: Dungeons&Dragons (and most other tabletop RPGs) have incredibly complicated grappling rules, so the probability is very low that a GM would voluntarily start this madness by making the dragon grapple you. And I don't think any edition (except perhaps the first, since it's so notorious for being *even worse*) even has rules for flight while grappling, although a quick Google tells me you can move at half speed in general and fails to find any implication that flight is strictly forbidden.

Anyway, the idea that dragons just don't do this kind of thing in practice isn't new, so it'd be ridiculous to act as if this was a genuine fault of Bioware.

[In Exile]

Merced652 wrote...

If Riordan is what you're calling a dues ex machina then you're going to have to relabel every fortunate circumstance that has ever taken place in recorded history as such. You can even use your example of why his "******" move might have actually been calculated. If he knew they had no way to force the dragon to engage them then he probably felt obligated to do exactly what he did. I'm sure he didn't plan on dying like he did, but i'm pretty sure an aim of his, be it the first or last, was to render it flightless. 

I didn't say it wasn't calculated. I said it was stupid. Used the term after Utoryo did since I assume people use correctly, but if you want to rag on me, whatever.

Regardless of whether or not the move is calcuated, it is stupid. His plan was only a step above this one: intentionally decapitating himself on the off-chance the archdemon might shallow and choke on his head. Plans that are unlikely to succeed are not good plans, and intentionality is irrelevant in executing them.

Hiting a moving option by leaping off a building requires so many things to go right it isn't any significantly less unlikely than the decapitaton plan.

[Qset]

In Exile wrote...

Frankly, I think the problem was Alistair. We needed another Warden who could have developed a thing for Morrigain to survive (or for Alistair to have been less antagonistic toward her, so that he could havve been seduced). That way, Bioware could lock-in the DR without overriding agency.

My hope was always a godbaby PC in DA2 with PC VO. Halfway there with Hawke, I guess.

Totally agree, point well made

[Wulfram]

If Riordan had Rogue Hawke's acrobatic talents, landing on a flying dragon would be easy.