724 réponses à ce sujet

[b09boy]

Personally, I never had much problem leaving my Warden behind...until Witch Hunt.  If my Warden rides off into the sunset to continue adventures or rule Fereldan or whatever, fine.  But the ending they gave is too abrupt as they never revealed where they end up through the mirror or what was in the book.  By the end of WH they make it out that the Warden still has something huge left to accomplish...then don't tell us what, why, how, where, when or anything.  It was a bare step above a cut to black, roll credits ending.

What I want is an ending where we can let our Warden go.  Where s/he is settled into his/her role in some way.  What I'd like to see is a last great adventure with the Warden, preferably in the old style with the silent protagonist (the Warden is basically fan service by this point and doing it this way would be huge to a lot of people for a proper send-off), where we find them in a new, unique location beyond the Fade or Thedas where we see them do one last great, influential thing which sends ripples through the DA universe, even if not officially recognized.  And then their story ends.  They die, they go home to rule the lands they were given, they settle in some remote region, they continue exploring, they remain with their loved one, they continue fighting to protect people from a great threat those in Thedas aren't even aware of, etc.  Somewhere we can comfortably let them go and know that's right where they belong while simultaneously furthering the lore of franchise.
Also, I just gotta say, what the hell at all the downplaying of the Warden's accomplishments in this topic.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Conjecture on my part, but I don't think a good many people were thrilled with how WH ended the Warden's story or possibly the Warden's interactions with Morrigan. Generally you read reviews of WH and the big criticism is that people were expecting a lot more from the story than what was (or wasn't) given in terms of answers.

The thing is, Witch Hunt absolutely fails to address any kind of story at all for any Warden that hasn't romanced Morrigan. It's a bone thrown at the Morrigain romance.

The fact that WH fails to address pretty much all epilogues expect ''...and you ran off after Morrigan, dude'' shows how problematic not cutting the Warden would be.

[In Exile]

Todd23 wrote...

People keep saying how terrible it would be to have the warden's story continue but be inaccurate, but I havn't seen complaints from USers about Awakening. But, it seems I'm the only one who still mentions Sandal. You know, a baby abandoned in the Deep Roads, even though he didn't have a brand, simple-minded, yet a master enchanter, and surrounded by darkspawn corpses at Fort Drakon.

Then you can see one from me, about my non US DR Wardens who DA:A decides to ****** all over by saying they would willingly continue to be members and even lead the Wardens in Ferelden. That was overwriting of the worst kind for my characters, and even worse than how hard DA:O tried to railroad you into a Grey Warden identity as opposed to your Origin.

[greekmonkey95]

I think everything is tied together some how. Hawke, our Warden, and other things are all tied together. If we dont see our Warden character again in a different story of course i'll be sad, but I trust Gaider and the Bioware team. BUT you guys better bring back the Warden and Morrigan's God baby!

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

Then you can see one from me, about my non US DR Wardens who DA:A decides to ****** all over by saying they would willingly continue to be members and even lead the Wardens in Ferelden. That was overwriting of the worst kind for my characters, and even worse than how hard DA:O tried to railroad you into a Grey Warden identity as opposed to your Origin.

Well, it's only overwriting if you choose to play DAA with that Warden. I'm not sure it's a valid complaint to say that the expansion doesn't accommodate all conceivable DAO PCs. Though of course you still can rightfully complain that Bio didn't make this clear to you before you purchased the game.

[In Exile]

DSerpa wrote..
1) You don't need to import that particular Warden into Awakening.
2) Your Warden was forced to be a Warden in Origins because they had a world to save. Your Warden was forced to be a Warden in Awakening because the entire darkspawn army stayed on the surface after the Blight. If you're complaining that your imported Warden didn't have the choice to leave the events of Awakening to someone else, you may as well complain about not being able to leave the Archdemon to Alistair while your Warden was sun tanning in Antiva.

I have to explain this every time, it seems.

You can tell the Wardens to go straight to hell after Duncan kidnaps you and dies (since he isn't around to murder you) but you might very well want to stop the blight for lots of other reasons. You can be a hero without caring about the Wardens.

DA:A revolves around commanding the Grey Wardens. It is not the same as having to stop an arcane evil when there is quite simply no one left.

DA:A gives you the ''choice'' of either never using your Warden again, or using whatever vision of the Warden Bioware created, i.e. overwriting your player choice.

AlanC9 wrote..

Well, it's only overwriting if you choose
to play DAA with that Warden. I'm not sure it's a valid complaint to say
that the expansion doesn't accommodate all conceivable DAO PCs. Though
of course you still can rightfully complain that Bio didn't make this
clear to you before you purchased the game.

It is not a complaint so much as it is a reason why I am glad we are done with Grey Wardens.

As for the point I want to make bringing the issue up, it is that whenever Bioware adds more content post the original game, they have to overwrite your motives to do it.

ME2 gets away with this because you never actually stopped the Reapers.

A good parallel to ME2 would be that if you stopped the reapers forever in ME1, and you chose to save the Council and were not a human extremist, yet ME2 is based on how Shepard replaced the Illusive Man and the whole game is centered on Cerberus working to advance human dominance at any cost.

Modifié par In Exile, 09 janvier 2011 - 08:02 .

[Matchy Pointy]

greekmonkey95 wrote...

I think everything is tied together some how. Hawke, our Warden, and other things are all tied together. If we dont see our Warden character again in a different story of course i'll be sad, but I trust Gaider and the Bioware team. BUT you guys better bring back the Warden and Morrigan's God baby!

All I can say to this is that for my first Warden atleast, Morrigan's God baby does not even exist, so please, don't bring that back like that.

[TwistedComplex]

In Exile wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

People keep saying how terrible it would be to have the warden's story continue but be inaccurate, but I havn't seen complaints from USers about Awakening. But, it seems I'm the only one who still mentions Sandal. You know, a baby abandoned in the Deep Roads, even though he didn't have a brand, simple-minded, yet a master enchanter, and surrounded by darkspawn corpses at Fort Drakon.

Then you can see one from me, about my non US DR Wardens who DA:A decides to ****** all over by saying they would willingly continue to be members and even lead the Wardens in Ferelden. That was overwriting of the worst kind for my characters, and even worse than how hard DA:O tried to railroad you into a Grey Warden identity as opposed to your Origin.

I've seen you talk about this before, and you really need to get it through your head.

Dragon age: origins is a story about becoming a gray warden. It's not the god damn sims where you can be whatever you want

This isn't a sandbox game. Sorry if you were expecting that

If you don't want your warden to be a gray warden in DA:A than don't import him. You willingly choose to import your character to DA:A, which means bioware gives you a choice to become warden commander

It's REALLY simple, dude

Modifié par TwistedComplex, 09 janvier 2011 - 01:28 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

In all fairness, out of all the Bioware RPG's I've played (BG1-2+Exp, NWN, KotOR, ME1-2) I find that in DA:O I didn't really develop a strong attachment to my character. I mean in this day and age the whole "I can kick ass, but I can't speak" doesn't really go down too well, takes a lot of the connection away when EVERYONE else is fully voiced.



Personally, I hope Bioware leave the "Warden" story behind and in each new Dragon Age game take you through a new character and a new story arc, from start to finish, in a different part of the Dragon Age world. Maybe even have cameos from "<insert char name> the Warden Commander" and "<insert char name> Hawke, Champion of Kirkwall" in the future games so you get an expanded view of their adventures after you left them.



Given what Bioware can do with choices and continiuity it could make for some interesting stuff.



Also, I think hefty DLC (a là Lair of the Shadowbroker) could be used to expand the Warden's and Hawkes adventures, as long as it fits in within or just after the main quest.



With Awakenings I didn't really like that it was a "module" type thing, kinda sucked. DLC that gels into the main game or just after is much better IMO. But on the whole, I see this happening with DA2 more than DA:O. I think DA:O can be classed as "Complete", specially with the Witch Hunt DLC, which I have yet to play but might get round to it someday.

[YR_Lim]

Yes the story is over, he died as he plunge his mighty blade into the terrible archdemon.



He was the bravest of us, he was the prince of all warriors his name will live forever, his song shall be sung forever!

[KillTheLastRomantic]

If Morrigan returned I would hope it'd be because we get to play as godbaby. Which could be weird for people who romanced her, but whatever.

[nikki191]

YR_Lim wrote...

Yes the story is over, he died as he plunge his mighty blade into the terrible archdemon.

He was the bravest of us, he was the prince of all warriors his name will live forever, his song shall be sung forever!

i hear he went through strangers belongings and took everything that wasnt nailed down.

there is a problem with continuing the story of the warden.. by the end of awakenings you are able to slay basically anything on thedas so what happens to the challenge?  level 50 genlocks?

i think the fallout games had the right idea.. individuals achieving amazing things, but each game is independant.. its still brings a smile to my face hearing about something the chosen one did in new vegas for example

[AngelicMachinery]

I think Dragon Age is a pretty cool guy.Eh kills arch denoms and doesn't afraid of anything.

[b09boy]

Sorry for going back a few pages in this argument, but I've decided I just can't help it.

Regarding the issue of the archdemon being the only threat and not the darkspawn - this is just not true.  The Anderfels is said to live in constant fear of darkspawn raids which are very common, we know through the books that, even without the blight, their influence is spreading in the deep roads and, hell, Awakening didn't even have an archdemon threat.  Darkspawn are a danger period.  An archdemon only compounds this danger as their attacks actually begin to resemble organization.

Regarding the Warden not being a general.  While it would have been good seeing them actually making strategic decisions, the absence of showing this does not mean s/he was not in control of the armies.  So Alistair or Loghain or Anora gave a speech.  That's a speech.  Just sticking to DA lore, Maric was the figurehead of Fereldan's armies giving speeches and whatnot while Loghain was the obvious leader of the armies.  As well, just because a general is given advice does not diminish their leadership.  The Warden was still responsible for gathering an army large enough to defeat the blight, for venturing to places few had dared and fewer still came back from, for laying out the startegies of how the combined armies should approach the final battle (even if we as the player did not), for personally leading the van to take Denerim from the bulk of the blight zone by zone, and for killing off or helping kill off a creature which, historically, required entire armies to find, corner and defeat.

Regarding the Warden's heroics not approaching the of Garahel.  The fourth blight is an epic story, but the circumstances are very different and to take away from the Warden because of that is doing the Warden a disservice.  Garahel was a real hero.  He ended a blight which lasted decades and thrashed the darkspawn so throughy many thought they had gone extinct.  The Warden was also a real hero.  The blight was not as large, but that's because it was the only blight which was ended within a couple years, much less a few decades.  That's quite the accomplishment.  Yeah, the blight wasn't as large as it never had time to grow.  The Warden also didn't have nearly as many Grey Wardens at their back, nearly as large an army supporting him/her, no griffons and is the singular only Warden to stop a blight before it overtook an entire country despite having only him/herself and two other Wardens and their disposal.  By contrast, the second, third and fourth blights all took place when the Grey Wardens had more power and near their home base where the most Wardens were stationed.

Finally, regarding your Warden's place in Awakening or beyond.  If you liked your Warden's place prior to Awakening, why import them?  I mean yeah it's a shame you couldn't create a new character and import choices (a mistake) but you can still choose for yourself whether your character's story is continued into the expansions.  If you don't think they would continue with the Wardens, don't take them into Awakening.  Don't think they'd go after Morrigan then don't take them into Witch Hunt.

[In Exile]

TwistedComplex wrote...
I've seen you talk about this before, and you really need to get it through your head.

Dragon age: origins is a story about becoming a gray warden. It's not the god damn sims where you can be whatever you want

No. Dragon Age is about stopping the blight. You don't have to want to become a Grey Warden. The game forces you to do this when Duncan conscripts you, but you can then do lots of other things at the end of the game, like become King of Ferelden, or run off with Leliana or Zevran, or become the Arl of the Alienage.

So DA:O ends precisely with you not being a Grey Warden, just like how it can end with Alistair not being a Grey Warden.

If you don't want your warden to be a gray warden in DA:A than don't import him. You willingly choose to import your character to DA:A, which means bioware gives you a choice to become warden commander

It's REALLY simple, dude

Bioware gives you no choice. It's either ''get your character overwritten (i.e. play only this one kind of character) or go **** yourself. That's the ''choice'' DA:A gives you.

DSerpa wrote...
Apparently, yes. That's what happens when you
complain about a non-issue.

I see your comprehension is weak.

You can refuse to
recruit any new Wardens in order to spare them the fate of your Warden.
You might also very well want to stop the army of darkspawn that
remained on the surface after the Blight since, you know,
stopping the army of darkspawn on the surface was also your
motivation during the Blight.

No. Stopping the army of darkspawn was not my motivation. Stopping the archdemon when no one else was left to do it was was. The darkspawn army broke apart.

In DA:A there is no need for you to do anything as Warden Commander. There could easily be some other Warden Commander. That Bioware writes a story where you are the Warden Commander is just then forcing a particular vision of your character on you.

It's quite simple, despite your persistent blindness.

DA:A revolves around routing the darkspawn army that's
ravaging the surface. You assume the role of Commander of the Grey (and
by extension Arl of Amaranthine) to accomplish this task, but that's no
different than using the authority of the Grey Warden treaties to
recruit an army in DA:O.

No. It's not. Because you don't ever use the authority of the treaties except with the dwarves You never even show them! You don't ever mention them to the mages or elves.

You show up, say there is a blight, and go ''btw this is totally true because I am a Warden and you ask for no proof.''

It's quite simple. DA:A talks about darkspawn gathering againt, but it doesn't have to be your problem.

So your complaint is that a sequel which
continues the story of the protagonist... continues the story of the
protagonist?

No. My complaint is that the sequel forces a motivation on your protagonist that you don't have to have at all. But please, continue to be obtuse.

Now
you're just grasping at straws.

No, you're just being thickheaded.

[In Exile]

b09boy wrote...

Sorry for going back a few pages in this argument, but I've decided I just can't help it.

Regarding the issue of the archdemon being the only threat and not the darkspawn - this is just not true.  The Anderfels is said to live in constant fear of darkspawn raids which are very common, we know through the books that, even without the blight, their influence is spreading in the deep roads and, hell, Awakening didn't even have an archdemon threat.  Darkspawn are a danger period.  An archdemon only compounds this danger as their attacks actually begin to resemble organization.

Yes, exactly. This is why, as an aside, the disciplies are actually a much bigger danger than an archdemon.

But it isn't your problem. A blight is a end-of-all-things force of nature. Lots of darkspawn are nothing but a major raid and a Grey Warden problem.

Let's put it this way: none of my characters during their origins, if they weren't conscripted by Duncan, would go run off to join the Wardens to fight in the Anderfels. This is the same thing.

While the darkspawn are a threat, they don't have to be a threat you personally react to.

Regarding the Warden not being a general.  While it would have been good seeing them actually making strategic decisions, the absence of showing this does not mean s/he was not in control of the armies.  So Alistair or Loghain or Anora gave a speech.  That's a speech.

And Eamon makes the decision to force a march to Denerim. And Riordan makes all the strategic decisions (keep the army at the games, split up, etc.).

You get to make precisely no choices, and continue being an errand boy. Compare it to the ME2 suicide mission, where Shepard is the one to work out the plan of attack at every juncture.

Just sticking to DA lore, Maric was the figurehead of Fereldan's armies giving speeches and whatnot while Loghain was the obvious leader of the armies.  As well, just because a general is given advice does not diminish their leadership.

Advice and ''Do this'' =! same thing. You tell me one choice you make as the Warden re: ''commanding'' this army and I will eat my hat.

The Warden was still responsible for gathering an army large enough to defeat the blight, for venturing to places few had dared and fewer still came back from, for laying out the startegies of how the combined armies should approach the final battle (even if we as the player did not), for personally leading the van to take Denerim from the bulk of the blight zone by zone, and for killing off or helping kill off a creature which, historically, required entire armies to find, corner and defeat.

Yeah - the Warden is an awesome errand boy. The Hero of Fedex, to be sure. But the Warden makes no decisions. Everything that happens in the final battle is a series of moronic decisions, one after another, and the only options are that the Warden is either commanding (and therefore a moron) or someone else is making decisions.

As for personally leading the vanguard - that goes right back to stupid decisions. At the time there are three living Wardens in Ferelden. They die, the archdemon wins. Having the Wardens in the vanguard, where the risk of death is highest, is just stupidity piled on stupity.

Regarding the Warden's heroics not approaching the of Garahel.  The fourth blight is an epic story, but the circumstances are very different and to take away from the Warden because of that is doing the Warden a disservice.  Garahel was a real hero.  He ended a blight which lasted decades and thrashed the darkspawn so throughy many thought they had gone extinct.  The Warden was also a real hero.  The blight was not as large, but that's because it was the only blight which was ended within a couple years, much less a few decades.  That's quite the accomplishment.  Yeah, the blight wasn't as large as it never had time to grow.  The Warden also didn't have nearly as many Grey Wardens at their back, nearly as large an army supporting him/her, no griffons and is the singular only Warden to stop a blight before it overtook an entire country despite having only him/herself and two other Wardens and their disposal.  By contrast, the second, third and fourth blights all took place when the Grey Wardens had more power and near their home base where the most Wardens were stationed.

This doesn't prove anything about the how impressive the Warden's achievement is relative to Garahel.

The Warden managed to win solely because of an HP metre. If you want to talk about what is allowable in DA lore, that is.

Finally, regarding your Warden's place in Awakening or beyond.  If you liked your Warden's place prior to Awakening, why import them?  I mean yeah it's a shame you couldn't create a new character and import choices (a mistake) but you can still choose for yourself whether your character's story is continued into the expansions.  If you don't think they would continue with the Wardens, don't take them into Awakening.  Don't think they'd go after Morrigan then don't take them into Witch Hunt.

That's a non-point.

If Bioware does this, then basicall my choice is to either play their Warden, who likes being a Grey Warden and chases after Morrigain, or go **** myself. That's my problem with them continuing any kind of open-ended character after the foil of that character is defeated.

[b09boy]

This argument is way too familiar.  Whatever, don't like the story then so be it, but your crieria for not liking it can easily go against basically any epic story ever written.  Especially in a video game where you seem to confuse gameplay and realism.

[EnforcerGREG]

Im wondering if Hawke will meet the same fate and walk off and leave us wondering s/he went. Or will s/he stay in Kirkwall and DA3 will be set somewhere else entirely.



Im hoping at some point all the protagonists past,present and future will meet up and fight the Shadow we hears about in the elven ruins and witch hunt

[In Exile]

[quote]DSerpa wrote...

And the Blight is what? A massive army of darkspawn commanded by a big dragon, that's what. [/quote]

No, it's an archdemon leading a massive army of darkspawn. How do you defeat them? Kill all the darkspawn? Kill any darkspawn? No. You kill the archdemon and the problem solves itself. 

The archdemon is the goal. That's why Grey Wardens exist in the first place. 

[quote]
You don't have to want to become Warden Commander in Awakening, either. What's your point?[/quote]

Yes, you do. There's no right of conscription and there's no do it or die choice.

[quote]
And you can go back to doing those things after the events of Awakening. One way or another, DA:A ends with you not being a Grey Warden. [/quote]

And it starts with you being one. But by all means - keep your head in the sand.

[quote]
Wait, what? You're complaining that your Warden doesn't have the option to leave the darkspawn problem to someone else, but you do have that option: Don't import that Warden. Canonically, if your Warden doesn't deal with the darkspawn in Awakening then someone else will. It may be another Warden, it may be the Architect, it may be Alec the Sheepherder--but someone resolves the situation. [/quote]

No. I'm complaining that Bioware wrote a story only for one particular kind of Warden. That's it. If you want to continue the story, you have to RP a single character. You can't RP anything other than a Warden sympathizer and loyalist.

If someone else solves the problem - they have to become the Warden Commander, and willingly lead the Grey Wardens.

This would be like DA:A always starting with your marriage to Zevran independent of gender.

[quote]Besides, is the motivation of your Warden so hard to find? "Hey, Warden, we're getting our asses handed to us by the darkspawn in Amaranthine. I know you're really busy and all, and we're gonna let you finish, but if someone doesn't take care of it then the darkspawn will spread to the rest of Ferelden, perhaps even the Free Marches and Orlais. If it isn't too much trouble, would you kindly lend us your legendary darkspawn-slaying abilities for a few months?" [/quote]

Yeah. Since none of this is actually true, as it turns out. DA:A is about rebuilding the Warden order in Ferelden and investigating the darkspawn, and that's the sales pitch you get. It becomes something more after the attack on Vigil.

[quote]
Petty insults? Really? This is a discussion board for a video game, not a political campaign. [/quote]

You're acting like you're not the one who started with the petty insults.

[quote]
So the Archdemon personally swooped down and killed everyone during the Blight then? The darkspawn had nothing to do with it? As I said before, the Blight is just an army of darkspawn commanded to kill by a big dragon. The darkspawn are the ones killing everyone. The only reason you go after the Archdemon is because it's the easiest way to defeat the darkspawn. [/quote]

The darkspawn always scatter without the archdemon. That's why you bee-line for it. No archdemon, no blight. Very simple.

[quote]
No, it didn't. Hence, Awakening. [/quote]

Yeah, it did. Then we had plot magic thanks to the Architect. But your recruitment drive is clean-up the darkspawn like a good Grey Warden does every other Blight.

[quote]Assuming the position (teehee) of Warden Commander gives you the authority to conscript soldiers, build the army, and direct the troops to fight the darkspawn at strategic locations. It is a means to an end. You aren't even Warden Commander for very long. [/quote]

All of which assumes you care about that end. Which is the problem in the first place - have your motivation narrowly provided for you by the game and overwriting your character.

[quote]Choose a different dialogue option next time. You can mention the treaties to the mages and the elves. [/quote]

It doesn't matter. You don't have to bring it up. Your Grey Warden status is there only if you want to go all I Grey Wardens. But you don't have to. Unlike DA:A.

[quote]
You're right. It doesn't. Don't import then, someone else will take care of it. [/quote]

I see you like missing the point.

[quote]
It doesn't force a motivation. The Warden just shows up and begins to kick darkspawn ass. Make up whatever motivation you want.[/quote]

No. The Warden gets a job to command and rebuild the Ferelden Grey Wardens. Willingly working toghether with the Wardens is drastic overwriting.

[darrylzero]

In Exile wrote...

DSerpa wrote...
So your complaint is that a sequel which
continues the story of the protagonist... continues the story of the
protagonist?

No. My complaint is that the sequel forces a motivation on your protagonist that you don't have to have at all. But please, continue to be obtuse.

I'm with you, for the most part.  Certainly, just going with the Orlesian Warden is no solution.  There should be an option to role-play a character who after Origins is at least ambivalent about his or her role as a Warden.  Not providing more of that experience is my biggest complaint about what I think is a great game with a pretty good story.

But I think you're overstating the extent to which the character is overwritten.  I know that I'm a little less hostile to the Wardens than you are (though I appreciate your stance), but I felt pretty comfortable believing that my Warden is willing to serve as Warden Commander instrumentally while searching for another option.  It's true that there's no option to actively antagonize the Wardens as an organization, but I don't agree that you're forced to take their goals as your own.

[JamieCOTC]

EnforcerGREG wrote...

Im wondering if Hawke will meet the same fate and walk off and leave us wondering s/he went. Or will s/he stay in Kirkwall and DA3 will be set somewhere else entirely.

Im hoping at some point all the protagonists past,present and future will meet up and fight the Shadow we hears about in the elven ruins and witch hunt

This is what bugs me more than anything.  I neither need nor desire a history of the main protaganist's deeds after the main game, but I am sick and tired of the "Hero of X" simply wandering off at the end of the game. It's old hat that dates back to the beginning of CRPGs, and it's time to move on from that format.  If change is what sets us free, then let us have real change, not just a different hero. 

That said, I hope Hawke stays in Kirkwall if there is a DA3 and we move on to someone else.