724 réponses à ce sujet

[Itkovian]

PureMethodActor wrote...

I slightly disagree about part of this statement. I believe ME2's Shepard's death is a viable endgame option; it wouldn't be included otherwise. One can simply choose to make all the bad choices and kill their Shepard off. Thats what I did with one of my Shepards, and I'm fine with not importing her into ME3.

As has already been stated, there are major differences. Shepard's death in ME2 will not import in ME3. Also, Shepard dying is realistically only a result of him failing on multiple levels (not doing the loyalties, then selecting the wrong companions, not recruiting all companions, and so on). It is hardly the mark of success that Shepard is known for.

You either have to rush through it and make serious mistakes at every turn to perish, or have it as your goal. Never mind that ME3 will probably prove that Shepard dying in ME2 would spell doom for the galaxy (since this is, after all, Shepard's story, where he is undeniably the savior of the galaxy).

In DAO, the Ultimate Sacrifice is billed as a truly selfless act of heroism, and does not result from failure at all. You can either perform a very dubious ritual (heck, it's dubbed the "Dark Ritual"), or let one of your henchmen take the fall for you, or give your life to save Thedas (or, for those who romanced Alistair, have your beloved sacrifice his life for you).

There is no question whatsoever which of all the final options is the most heroic, especially considering the context, and that as a Grey Warden you are doomed to die of the taint anyway.

All in all, you seem to be focusing too much on the individual need, which is a habit I see with most US-only players. You need to remember that the Dark Ritual choice was billed as THE most important choice, and it is only fair and right, especially for those who chose Dark Ritual like myself, that Bioware gives the Warden's story a continuation to help deal with Flemeth and her machinations.

The individual need? How do you arrive to this conclusion? If you are implying I am selfishly thinking only of my own choice as an American (not that I am American, but that's besides the point), then you are seriously mistaken. I do not know the exact proportion of players who picked which option for their main playthrough, but clearly there must be a very large fraction of players who picked each option. Beyond this, there is no doubt that the Ultimate Sacrifice ending is the most selfless (and I would say heroic, based on that alone) option.

That said, how you deal with the Archdemon is certainly the most important choice to make, but how is accepting the Dark Ritual the most important outcome? How is it more important than letting Alistair sacrifice himself? Or making the Ultimate Sacrifice yourself?

What is actually fair and right is for Bioware to continue Morrigan's and Flemeth's plotlines in a way that satisfies all DAO players. It can hardly be fair and right if their story is only accessible to players whose characters performed the Dark Ritual, as it would certainly penalizes players who chose other valid options.

Whatever happens with Flemeth and Morrigan is not contingent on the Warden somehow being present in its developement. It can equally be told (for example) during DA2's story, with Hawke as the protagonist (in which some elements would vary based on the Warden's choices you imported).

Besides any "but my warden is dead" talk is moot because Gaider, among other devs, have said they have methods of resurrecting dead wardens anyway.

While bringing back a sacrificed Warden would certainly be a way to ensure a continuation of the Warden's story would be fair to all players without making it generic enough that a new protagonist could fit in (as per awakening), I am under the impression that one of the main rules of Dragon Age is "no resurrection".

Indeed, I think it is stated on the wiki from the dev bible (or some such), where certain types of spells are not allowed (ressurection, teleportation, and so forth).

While this would not be unwelcomed, I do believe we need to accept that the Warden's story arc IS complete, and that the reason Bioware has moved on to a new iconic hero is because they believe the same as well. It also conveniently lets them avoid some of the more difficult narrative issues with the DAO endings.

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Itkovian]

PureMethodActor wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

Why is that?

The Warden is just that: a Grey Warden. If the events in Kirkwall (which is, after all, outside of Ferelden - and DAO has clearly emphatized the Warden's attachment to Ferelden) have nothing to do with Darkspawn, why would he be involved?

The Warden has his own duties after all, and solving wars in other countries is not one of them.

Itkovian

This is inaccurate. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Warden's don't deal exclusively with Darkspawn. They serve as diplomats and leaders in other functions as well. They serve the people of Thedas regardless of the problem.

As Brock said earlier, one example is taking over stewardship of Amaranthine. And this isn't motivated by Darkspawn at the beginning; indeed Darkspawn show up and a plot for Awakening is created, but originally the Warden's primary mission is to rule over Amaranthine as an Arl/Arlessa.

Either way, saying Grey Wardens only deal with Darkspawn is highly inaccurate and these false statements need to stop.

Actually, I was under the impression that the grant of Amaranthine is an abherration for the Grey Wardens, a rare exception where they are actually granted political power in a given land.

For example, the Warden's Keep DLC clealry states the Wardens stay out of politics, and that one of the reasons it fell was because it chose to get involved in a civil war, something Wardens as a rule never do.

Indeed, I would say our entire quest in DAO is exceptional for a Grey Warden, and happens only due to our unique circumstances (being the only wardens on the scene, with no support from authority or the rest of the Wardens). For example, Duncan would have never gotten involved in dwarven politics, or Ferelden for that matter (they even got exiled for it after all). That WE got involved is more the exeption than the rule.

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, as there is more to the Wardens than what we learn about in Ferelden, but I certainly would like to see your sources that state that Wardens are focused on more than fighting the Darkspawn, given their very oath is about severing all ties in order to dedicate themselves to fighting the darkspawn.

Itkovian

Modifié par Itkovian, 16 novembre 2010 - 10:20 .

[Brockololly]

Itkovian wrote...
As has already been stated, there are major differences. Shepard's death in ME2 will not import in ME3. Also, Shepard dying is realistically only a result of him failing on multiple levels (not doing the loyalties, then selecting the wrong companions, not recruiting all companions, and so on). It is hardly the mark of success that Shepard is known for.

And yet, in Awakening, you cannot import the world state of the US Wardens, so playing as an Orlesian doesn't guarantee your US Warden amounted to anything other than what a DeadShep amounts to in ME3.

Itkovian wrote...
There is no question whatsoever which of all the final options is the most heroic, especially considering the context, and that as a Grey Warden you are doomed to die of the taint anyway.

Heroic to you maybe, but a total waste for many others. Why go all martyr when surely your Warden could do more good alive than dead? Its not "no question" that the US is the more heroic choice in this- for all we know, the Warden going all kamikaze results in no Old God Baby, which maybe dooms the world when this "Change" comes along? We don't know yet.  But its impossible to say the US is the most heroic option when we don't know any of the consequences for the US or DR yet.

To brush off the Wardens as simply doomed to die anyway and thus they all might as well take the US is myopic- who knows what else might pop up down the road needing the Warden's attention? Big deal, everyone in the world of DA will die given enough time, why not make the most of that 30 years instead of piddling it away so you can be the big bad martyr, abandoning the rest of the world to clean up the mess just so your Warden can go out in a blaze of glory? My Wardens think the more heroic thing to do is take up the DR and be around to deal with those consequences- cause even if you go US, Morrigan and Flemeth are still around, and from my perspective, you're just passing the buck on to some other person by taking your one way ticket to the great beyond.

Itkovian wrote...
 If you are implying I am selfishly thinking only of my own choice as an American (not that I am American, but that's besides the point), then you are seriously mistaken.

Dude, US= Ultimate Sacrifice.

Itkovian wrote...
That said, how you deal with the Archdemon is certainly the most important choice to make, but how is accepting the Dark Ritual the most important outcome? How is it more important than letting Alistair sacrifice himself? Or making the Ultimate Sacrifice yourself?

Accepting or turning down the DR is the most important choice. And thus, if you turn down the DR, there is a good chance your Warden will die and if not your Warden then somebody else. But no matter what in that case, somebody dies and thus, that person's story is over. So if you go US, then you opted to off your Warden. The DR is not an end but a beginning- you're choosing to keep your Warden alive and choosing to create the Old God Baby. Maybe its a crap choice in the end that bites the Warden in their ass, but it keeps their story going while the US is the end of the line for the Warden.

Itkovian wrote...
What is actually fair and right is for Bioware to continue Morrigan's and Flemeth's plotlines in a way that satisfies all DAO players. It can hardly be fair and right if their story is only accessible to players whose characters performed the Dark Ritual, as it would certainly penalizes players who chose other valid options.

They certainly can, but if we're talking about choice and consequence here, there is more going on when you take the DR than if you cash out and take the US. Its not about "fairness"; taking the US ends the Warden's story, while doing the DR keeps it going. Morrigan and Flemeth can certainly keep playing a role in DA, but their role is more significant if you took the DR. Thats the whole point- the DR/US is a choice and those who take the DR should be afforded the opportunity to get a unique experience going forward where the Warden who did the DR and stayed alive and made the OGB can see those consequences through to the end. The US Wardens saw their grand finale. The DR Wardens haven't gotten any ending yet beyond a crummy epilogue slide.

Itkovian wrote...
Whatever happens with Flemeth and Morrigan is not contingent on the Warden somehow being present in its developement. It can equally be told (for example) during DA2's story, with Hawke as the protagonist (in which some elements would vary based on the Warden's choices you imported).

WIth Flemeth sure, but as for Morrigan, she's off in Mirror World presumably for the better course of DA2 as the devs have said she won't be around in DA2. But you bring in some random PC to deal with Morrigan when those Wardens who did the DR should still be around and thats just crap storytelling. Its the whole "no canon" structure- so sure, the US Warden would stay dead (maybe) and the Orlesian might deal with Morrigan again. Thats fine.  But just because somebody did the US doesn't make the DR and its as yet to be seen consequences any less valid. Again- "no canon."

Itkovian wrote...
While bringing back a sacrificed Warden would certainly be a way to ensure a continuation of the Warden's story would be fair to all players without making it generic enough that a new protagonist could fit in (as per awakening), I am under the impression that one of the main rules of Dragon Age is "no resurrection".

And yet Gaider did say at PAX they had thought of ways to bring the Warden back when they were planning DA2. Maybe its not resurrection, but who knows what FLemeth was doing to the Warden when you got knocked out at Ostagar?

Modifié par Brockololly, 16 novembre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Itkovian]

Broody herr.

I certainly put my foot in it this time. Disregard the rant about the US players.

Itkovian

[Itkovian]

That said, you do make some good points.

However, regardless of choice and consequences (to which I partly agree), the fact is that making extra game content that is only available to specific players (whereas the others don't even get different content to compensate) is rather poor form.

All it does is prompt the players to avoid the option they would prefer so they don't miss out on that extra content.

And if they make that extra content generic enough that another adventurer could be involved, then as stated in one of my previous posts I hardly think that constitutes a continuation of the Warden's narrative journey (much like, IMO, Awakenings didn't).

Though I should state, however, that I wouldn't object to getting my warden back. I just don't think that's being realistic, given the obstacles faced and the current move to DA2's hawke.

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Morrigans God son]

I want the warden back

[nightcobra]

Morrigans God son wrote...

I want the warden back

tough, some people killed him/her off already:wizard:

will we hear about the warden though? most certainly

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 16 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[naledgeborn]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

I want the warden back

tough, some people killed him/her off already:wizard:

will we hear about the warden though? most certainly

tough, some people did the Dark Ritual 

[nightcobra]

naledgeborn wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

I want the warden back

tough, some people killed him/her off already:wizard:

will we hear about the warden though? most certainly

tough, some people did the Dark Ritual 

yup, and some who did that disappeared into a plane beyond the mortal world and the fade.

maybe a cameo in a future DA game but as for DA2 that's very very very unlikely. 

[Huntress]

Is more realistic to/for some to leave the "father" or "Mother" monster/s things alive to create smart ghouls ;P ( not for me! I killed the smart bastards)



I am not fanatical about the warden is just the story is not over for me, just because you kill your self doesnt mean, all the gray wardens should follow your lead, "because lets be civil, it won't be another archdemon for many Hundreds of years".

By this logic, all the books related to "how to make gray warden's" should be giving to the chantry. Rofl that would work!

[BurtonSD]

I want the warden's story to continue imo. We shouldn't get screwed out of further development because people decided to kill theirs off.



Maybe theirs can get resurrected by some uber disciple (or even Jowan). I don't know...

[Sable Rhapsody]

PureMethodActor wrote...

@Sable Rhapsody- I wasn't just referring to the Wardens of Weisshaupt. Indeed, my earlier description of the Grey Wardens as being like the Jedi Order is accurate. And before anyone says anything else, no, of course the Grey Wardens don't have extra powers after becoming Grey Wardens.

Again I'm referring to the role the Jedi serve in the galaxy. They travel all over, solving disputes, negotiations, and fighting when necessary. The Grey Wardens do much of this, too... all over Thedas (as least the nations which allow them in, that is).

I'm not ruling this out, but you're basing this on what we've seen of the Wardens in two contexts--Weisshaupt, which we've only been told about by Duncan and codex, and Ferelden post-Blight, where the Wardens are regarded as heroes and saviors, and the darkspawn are still a BIG FREAKING DEAL.  Even in the epilogue of Origins, before the events of Awakening take place.

We have no idea what the Wardens' roles in the Free Marches, Nevarra, Antiva, Orlais, or anywhere else might be like.  The Grey Wardens have gotten in terrible trouble for being tied up in politics; Warden's Keep and their expulsion from Ferelden until Maric are excellent examples.  If the Warden-Commander handles Amaranthine poorly, the people aren't too thrilled with the Wardens in the epilogue.  I don't think the Wardens in DA:O are nearly as widely important as, say, the Jedi or the Spectres.  If they were, they wouldn't have declined nearly as far as they did during the centuries between the Fourth and Fifth Blights.

[Ziggeh]

BurtonSD wrote...
We shouldn't get screwed out of further development because people decided to kill theirs off.

Surely you understand that they aren't going to make games for a percentage of their audience? That in order to involve the Warden they need to use a device as they did in Awakenings that allows him to be replaced. At which point it really ceases to be any sort of development of the characters story, but becomes just some other things that happen. I'm not sure that's what people would want, or would be best.

[Huntress]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

BurtonSD wrote...
We shouldn't get screwed out of further development because people decided to kill theirs off.

Surely you understand that they aren't going to make games for a percentage of their audience? That in order to involve the Warden they need to use a device as they did in Awakenings that allows him to be replaced. At which point it really ceases to be any sort of development of the characters story, but becomes just some other things that happen. I'm not sure that's what people would want, or would be best.

I will not talk for what others want, just for what I want.

I want to know if there is more of the smart monsters..
The one in awakening didn't actually say it was just him.. he made others like( mother) so more should be out there, maybe this others didn't want to follow this creature or theMother,
the( father) did said he made few mistakes.. but how many? THAT'S unclear and thats why he died in my game.
What would be the future of Dwarves if this smart monsters start discovering way thru the Dwarves city? My warden is an elf, she doesn't  care much for dwarves BUT, the dwarves are the guardian's down there, alone and in the dark, if they fall we are all doomed. I just need to know!!

Modifié par Huntress, 17 novembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Ziggeh]

Huntress wrote...

I want to know if there is more of the smart monsters.. The one in awakening didn't actually say it was just him.. he made others like( mother) so more should be out there, maybe this others didn't want to follow this creature or theMother, the( father) did said he made few mistakes.. but how many? THAT'S unclear and thats why he died in my game.What would be the future of Dwarves if this smart monsters start discovering way thru the Dwarves city? My warden is an elf, she doesn't  care much for dwarves BUT, the dwarves are the guardian's down there, alone and in the dark, if they fall we are all doomed. I just need to know!!

Absolutely, there are a lot of loose ends, but none of them actually involve the warden, just the people around him. With the exception of stepping through the looking glass, but that's more to do with Morrigan.

Who or what Flemeth is and wants is a good example, and we already know she's part of the Hawke story.

I'll think we see many of them covered in time. Not all of them mind. I think loose ends is an important part of world building, gets the imagination flowing.

Personally I want to know whether the Black Citadel was ever really gold.

[Huntress]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Huntress wrote...

I want to know if there is more of the smart monsters.. The one in awakening didn't actually say it was just him.. he made others like( mother) so more should be out there, maybe this others didn't want to follow this creature or theMother, the( father) did said he made few mistakes.. but how many? THAT'S unclear and thats why he died in my game.What would be the future of Dwarves if this smart monsters start discovering way thru the Dwarves city? My warden is an elf, she doesn't  care much for dwarves BUT, the dwarves are the guardian's down there, alone and in the dark, if they fall we are all doomed. I just need to know!!

Absolutely, there are a lot of loose ends, but none of them actually involve the warden, just the people around him. With the exception of stepping through the looking glass, but that's more to do with Morrigan.

Who or what Flemeth is and wants is a good example, and we already know she's part of the Hawke story.

I'll think we see many of them covered in time. Not all of them mind. I think loose ends is an important part of world building, gets the imagination flowing.

Personally I want to know whether the Black Citadel was ever really gold.

She was in the story of king Maric and Logain?* (*spelling) and yet ..

She saved the warden because of the babygod.
She needs hawk as a mailman.. flemeth is something thats true, what?
I do not have a clue, 90% of the players said: warden are made just for archdemons true enough, but now The wardens know of smart darkspawn, are they really gonna sit around knowing that this smarts creature need wardens blood to make more of them.. I think NOT.
Bioware can kill the warden any day that is true, is their game, but they cant dream about making millions of dollards when each chapter means, your chart ( any* and I mean any like hawk, warden a leroy) Have to die or the story stop because is boring.. People like to see the ends of things, is sick I know, but that come with been humans, we need to know everything and try to kill everything we think is evil, useless or for the heck of it.

[BurtonSD]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

BurtonSD wrote...
We shouldn't get screwed out of further development because people decided to kill theirs off.

Surely you understand that they aren't going to make games for a percentage of their audience? That in order to involve the Warden they need to use a device as they did in Awakenings that allows him to be replaced. At which point it really ceases to be any sort of development of the characters story, but becomes just some other things that happen. I'm not sure that's what people would want, or would be best.

Good point. 

Modifié par BurtonSD, 17 novembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Elite Midget]

Yup, no more Warden. Bioware has spoken and Hawke it now the current new toy.



In DA3 Hawke will no longer exist either, mark my words!

[Ziggeh]

Huntress wrote...
People like to see the ends of things

I thought we did. That was his/her story, they (grammatically incorrect pronoun! I'm totally learning here) were the Warden that ended the 5th Blight, and this has been and done.

Now admittedly I can see why it might seem otherwise, we're used to everything wrapping up neatly, but it's a big ficitonal world out there, and they have lots more stories to tell, those are valuable ends to keep loose.

[Huntress]

The only one who saw the end of the chapter was the US players..

[Itkovian]

Brockololly wrote...

And yet, in Awakening, you cannot import the world state of the US Wardens, so playing as an Orlesian doesn't guarantee your US Warden amounted to anything other than what a DeadShep amounts to in ME3.

Itkovian wrote...
There is no question whatsoever which of all the final options is the most heroic, especially considering the context, and that as a Grey Warden you are doomed to die of the taint anyway.

Heroic to you maybe, but a total waste for many others. Why go all martyr when surely your Warden could do more good alive than dead? Its not "no question" that the US is the more heroic choice in this- for all we know, the Warden going all kamikaze results in no Old God Baby, which maybe dooms the world when this "Change" comes along? We don't know yet.  But its impossible to say the US is the most heroic option when we don't know any of the consequences for the US or DR yet.

To brush off the Wardens as simply doomed to die anyway and thus they all might as well take the US is myopic- who knows what else might pop up down the road needing the Warden's attention? Big deal, everyone in the world of DA will die given enough time, why not make the most of that 30 years instead of piddling it away so you can be the big bad martyr, abandoning the rest of the world to clean up the mess just so your Warden can go out in a blaze of glory? My Wardens think the more heroic thing to do is take up the DR and be around to deal with those consequences- cause even if you go US, Morrigan and Flemeth are still around, and from my perspective, you're just passing the buck on to some other person by taking your one way ticket to the great beyond.

As a last note on this topic, I'd like to address the paragraphs above, as I do belive there are very good reasons for choosing the ultimate sacrifice, which I find more compelling than those for going ahead with the ritual.

Firstly, however, a note on the first paragraph: the fact that DA2 allows the import of the US ending does rather indicate that the US ending has more "validity" than Shepard's Death. As does the fact that ME is specifically billed as Commander Shepard's Story, whereas Dragon Age 2 clearly introduces a new protagonist (while still accounting for the US ending).

But moving on to the reasons for the Ultimate Sacrifice, the short version is that going ahead with the Dark Ritual involves a great many unknowns, as well as performing a rather dubious ritual involving a character whose motives are dubious at best. Conversely, however, the Ultimate Sacrifice offers a clear outcome that is proven to end the Blight, and is undeniably heroic.

But let me explain in further details, on a point by point basis:

- At the time the Ultimate Sacrifice is possible, no one knows about the coming change, so that hardly matters. In fact, at that point the one major threat to Thedas we are aware of are the Blights. Indeed, that is the entire point of DAO.

- We know that there are three Old Gods left, and that the Archdemon is one of those three (assuming we believe the whole Old Gods mythology, but the Dark Ritual operates with the same belief anyway so that hardly matters).

- Therefore, eliminating the Archdemon offers clear progress towards ending all Blights. After this Archdemon is defeated, only 2 Blights will remain.

- If the Dark Ritual is performed, we still remain with 3 Old Gods. There is no evidence that the Old God contained in Morrigan's baby could not be corrupted as well, which means perform the Dark Ritual may only postpone the Blight. Given that both still require slaying the Archdemon, making sure the Old God is destroyed is not unwise.

- The Dark Ritual is being offered by Morrigan, a character of rather dubious moral values (as evinced by the fact that most good/generous/noble acts seem to displease her), who refuses to explain anything about this ritual, aside from the vague assurance that the taint would not be transferred to the child.

- Morrigan has obviously been deceiving the Warden and this ritual has been the reason for her accompanying him/her all along, and despite her newfound opposition to Flemeth it is reasonable to assume that this is also something Flemeth wanted. And, as above, she refuses to say what she wants to do with the Old God child.

- Finally, all sources available to us in DAO seem to indicate that the Old Gods were not at all good before they even became tainted as Archdemons. This is even more true if the Warden is a follower of the Chantry (not that this makes him/her right, of course). From all accounts, they were bad things and the empire that once worshipped them was certainly a tyrannical and oppressive regime that embraced Blood Magic (and if the various quests of DAO show anything, it's that Blood Magic is Bad ).

Therefore, faced with vague assurances from a dubious source that the Dark Ritual will not have any negative repercussions - as opposed to clear and definite victory and progress against the singlemost important threat to Thedas - I find it very wise to reject the Dark Ritual and seek a measure of finality against the Blight.

Mind you, I concede that it could be the Old God Child might be useful against the Change, but the fact is we don't know this exist. We know Blights are the greatest threat, and we know that destroying the Archdemon works, and that there will be only 2 Blights left after this. That clear progress against the greatest danger to all of humanity is achieved by doing the Ultimate Sacrifice (or having Alistair do it).

So while I concede that doing the Ultimate Sacrifice simply because it's what sounds most Grey Wardenish is rather short-sighted (though I dare say it is the most dramatically appropriate *grin*), to do so with the above in mind certainly is not, and is an undoubtedly heroic and selfless end for the Grey Warden.

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Huntress]

Itkovian said:
"So while I concede that doing the Ultimate Sacrifice simply because it's what sounds most Grey Wardenish is rather short-sighted (though I dare say it is the most dramatically appropriate *grin*), to do so with the above in mind certainly is not, and is an undoubtedly heroic and selfless end for the Grey Warden.

I do not see any heroism on killing myself, There is always a way OUT of that, and killing my self for just  a maybe, my elf is female, she was the leader and she told Logain to go ahead, with the last blow. Do you see what I just did? My elf still alive and kicking, no dark pact, dead logain, alistar king, and she wanted to help the wardens.. ops? I believe my warden story should continue because my elf didn't do US.. fair?

Another great end is killing sweet alistar but I would never do that, nope, nope.

Modifié par Huntress, 17 novembre 2010 - 01:47 .