724 réponses à ce sujet

[Itkovian]

DSerpa wrote...
Itkovian, full stop. Let's make something clear. Your opinion is not fact. You are not deductively reaching logical conclusions. You're not even inductively reaching logical conclusions. You are merely speculating, as are we all. Stop acting like your opinion is the only possible direction the franchise could go.

If you read my posts, you will see that I am not doing so. In the (rare) instance I mention something as fact, I find the evidence back up my conclusions (for example, the direction the franchise IS going - namely DA2 with a new protagonist).

You killed your Warden. We get it. Other people did not. Do not assume that the Ultimate Sacrifice is the most popular ending. There are three other potential endings. I don't know which is the most popular, but I wouldn't try to claim that the ending I chose is the ending that everyone chose.

Again, you are most definitely misinterpreting my posts. I never made any such claims, and in fact wrote the very same point you are trying to make in a previous post.

As for the rest, I addressed the whole idea of having a story written such that it could accomodate a different hero. It is undeniable, at least in my opinion, that a story that can be handled by a generic character must be so watered down as to no longer be part of the Waden's Journey. Awakenings showed this quite well.

Having a handful of decisions ported over to a new story, where any character could cope with them, hardly translates in a continuation of the Warden's narrative journey.

Mind you, as stated in earlier posts, I wouldn't really mind if we got
back to the Grey Warden, but they would have to do some severe mental
gymnastics to accomodate all their endings while preserving the Warden's
journey without excluding a major portion of the player base. Somehow ressurecting the Warden might work, though it would be a bit of a stretch.

But quite frankly, given the current direction of the franchise, it does seem unlikely. And while Morrigan's story is indeed a major loose end that needs to be tied up, I think the Warden's journey is complete enough already (Dark Ritual or not).

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Itkovian]

Huntress wrote...

Itkovian said:
"So while I concede that doing the Ultimate Sacrifice simply because it's what sounds most Grey Wardenish is rather short-sighted (though I dare say it is the most dramatically appropriate *grin*), to do so with the above in mind certainly is not, and is an undoubtedly heroic and selfless end for the Grey Warden.

I do not see any heroism on killing myself, There is always a way OUT of that, and killing my self for just  a maybe, my elf is female, she was the leader and she told Logain to go ahead, with the last blow. Do you see what I just did? My elf still alive and kicking, no dark pact, dead logain, alistar king, and she wanted to help the wardens.. ops? I believe my warden story should continue because my elf didn't do US.. fair?

Another great end is killing sweet alistar but I would never do that, nope, nope.

Well, for one thing I was responding to the US vs DR issue. Having someone else perform the Ultimate Sacrifice was not part of the equation.

That said, while you may not see any heroism in killing yourself, there is no heroism to find in letting someone else take the fall for you. You don't see a great many Victoria Crosses being handed out for that.

However, one note: how can you have Loghain sacrifice himself and still have Alistair as king? Mod?

Itkovian

[Huntress]

Itkovian wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Itkovian said:
"So while I concede that doing the Ultimate Sacrifice simply because it's what sounds most Grey Wardenish is rather short-sighted (though I dare say it is the most dramatically appropriate *grin*), to do so with the above in mind certainly is not, and is an undoubtedly heroic and selfless end for the Grey Warden.

I do not see any heroism on killing myself, There is always a way OUT of that, and killing my self for just  a maybe, my elf is female, she was the leader and she told Logain to go ahead, with the last blow. Do you see what I just did? My elf still alive and kicking, no dark pact, dead logain, alistar king, and she wanted to help the wardens.. ops? I believe my warden story should continue because my elf didn't do US.. fair?

Another great end is killing sweet alistar but I would never do that, nope, nope.

Well, for one thing I was responding to the US vs DR issue. Having someone else perform the Ultimate Sacrifice was not part of the equation.

That said, while you may not see any heroism in killing yourself, there is no heroism to find in letting someone else take the fall for you. You don't see a great many Victoria Crosses being handed out for that.

However, one note: how can you have Loghain sacrifice himself and still have Alistair as king? Mod?

Itkovian

Mind you Logain was a gray warden I helped him be the hero, a hero that die in Ostagar* after leaving the KING to die!  are you trying to say he didn't deserve to be a hero? Then should have been Alistar, he was gray warden much longer than I.. still  do not see where my warden have to die. Like i said there is always a way out.

When you harden alistar he is king/marry anora..  he is not in your camp if logain is alive, the queen do the speech.
hint: play the game/ hahahaha

I do understand your point of doing US, your gray warden was tired/bored and had no hopes left, my gray warden however, do NOT believe in killing herself, she knows that there is always a solution and giving up is nOT one of them.

[Itkovian]

Well, in my playthrough Alistair becomes the king, and is basically a unifying figure for Ferelden. It would hardly be proper for him to sacrifice himself with Ferelden clearly needs him (keep in mind nobody knows about the need for an US until after the Landsmeet).

Now, if he had had no such responsibilities and asked to slay the Archdemon himself, I must admit to be unsure what my action would have been. "Race you for it", perhaps .

But it still goes back, I guess, to the entire "What do Grey Wardens do?" issue. It seems clear to me, at least within the context of what our Warden learns in DAO, that the Grey Wardens dedicate their lives to fighting the Darkspawn and ending the Blights. And there's no better way to accomplish that than slaying an Archdemon. In my opinion all Wardens true to their cause (and I certainly am not arguing that all Wardens are attached to their cause, considering how some of them are recruited) would volunteer for the task.

Yet, at the same time, there is clear wisdom in having the Warden closest to his Calling take the final blow, considering what the Calling entails. But at the same time, I am convinced that when a unit of Wardens confront an Archdemon and the eldest is struck down, his/her comrades would not hesitate to take the final blow themselves.

But, as I said, it was never an issue for me. Alistair was king, his ascension vital in uniting Ferelden, and so he is worth more living than I. The decision then was simple (and I explained why I rejected the Dark Ritual in an earlier post).

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Huntress]

I agree with you, thats why alistar is king in my game, I didnt want to kill him, I am not a B.. Logain however, need it clean up his mess, so he died like a hero. Good one huh?



My elf lost the love of her life, alistar.. true be told thats much harder to stand that killing him, he didnt see what I was trying to do.. just like you. there is only 1 problem and many solutions, happen in Real life, it happens in the game, I will never give up on life, and neither anything I make, create. Life is short my elf knows that,she'll fight for life until she dies.

[Eski.Moe]

Our Warden traveled to the far reaches of Thedas to fight the true Darkspawn. Hawke will go to join him after his journey has ended.

[Kroaks]

PureMethodActor wrote...

@Sable Rhapsody- I wasn't just referring to the Wardens of Weisshaupt. Indeed, my earlier description of the Grey Wardens as being like the Jedi Order is accurate. And before anyone says anything else, no, of course the Grey Wardens don't have extra powers after becoming Grey Wardens.

Again I'm referring to the role the Jedi serve in the galaxy. They travel all over, solving disputes, negotiations, and fighting when necessary. The Grey Wardens do much of this, too... all over Thedas (as least the nations which allow them in, that is).

Well; they do have the ability to sense Darkspawn and see the archdemon in their dreams and their is some level of stat bonus isn't there?  But no; definately nothing like the Jedi with their telekinesis; future seeing and whatnot.

One of the things mentioned is that the warden most likely has a short life but with the option of drinking the wyvern's blood, taking Avernus's concoction and having his research there even if you do kill him than aside from either having been violently killed in conflict or ending their lives themselves (getting poisoned etc...) shouldn't it be almost a given that your warden and now possibly every other warden's life span has been expanded by however long Avernus himself lived?

What was it 200-400 years he managed to get without going violently insane?

As for whether or not the warden is specifically needed or if it would be a story any generic adventurer could fulfill; aside from your intial starting point/race/social status in the game and some characters therein once Duncan takes you to meet Cailan couldn't you say the same about most of DAO itself?

As for whether or not my personal warden's story continues hinges on two things:

1.)  Whether or not they feel like making further games that allow the continued expansion and exploration of the character

and

2.)  Exactly what going into the mirror with morrigan means until I know for sure what is on the other side; I can't say for sure whether or not his story continues.

[In Exile]

Avernus used bloodmagic. Unless you're a bloodmage, you're not getting the benefits of his skin treatment.

The real problem with the Dragon Age: The Warden 2 is that Bioware would have to invent a reason for you to care about the story in DA2 that might totally break your character. Awakening was already broken for me because none of my characters would become Warden Commanders, since their goal was 1) free themselves of the taint 2) free themselves from the taint and 3) free themselves from the taint, and 4) tell the Wardens to go screw themselves.

[Kroaks]

In Exile wrote...

Avernus used bloodmagic. Unless you're a bloodmage, you're not getting the benefits of his skin treatment.
The real problem with the Dragon Age: The Warden 2 is that Bioware would have to invent a reason for you to care about the story in DA2 that might totally break your character. Awakening was already broken for me because none of my characters would become Warden Commanders, since their goal was 1) free themselves of the taint 2) free themselves from the taint and 3) free themselves from the taint, and 4) tell the Wardens to go screw themselves.

But where did it imply that his magic was limited only to mages?

Yes it takes a blood mage to do the spell/whatever or at least it took a blood mage to learn how to do it but far as I know it wasn't implied that it could only be affective on Avernus and/or Bloodmages.

We just know he found out something that could be used to expand the warden's life spans and could use blood magic to do so.

Don't think a class limited was ever put on it or implied really.

Like how the blood mage from tevinter who did the slaves can amp you up with a permanent physical stat boost despite you not personally being a blood mage.

And Avernus's concotion can amp you up as well regardless of class doesn't it?

[Itkovian]

DSerpa wrote...

That is not fact. That is your opinion. A new protagonist in a new game does not mean that the rest of the franchise will be a collection of loosely related stories told through a different protagonist each game.

Well, it is more likely the story would focus more on this new protagonist. Beyond this, all the other narrative obstacles they face also speak of them steering clear of further Warden stories.

That said, I did concede it could happen, however unlikely. That was in a prior post

DSerpa wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

As for the rest, I addressed the whole idea of having a story written such that it could accomodate a different hero. It is undeniable, at least in my opinion, that a story that can be handled by a generic character must be so watered down as to no longer be part of the Waden's Journey. Awakenings showed this quite well.

It is indeed deniable that the story must be watered down. In the example I gave, we have three different protagonists with three different prologues and three different motives who go through roughly the same adventure and then potentially branch again into multiple endings. This framework does not necessarily require a homogenized story. Don't underestimate the writers.

As far as Awakening goes, I thought the story was fine. I would have liked a little filler between the third mission and the final battle, but other than that I have no complaints. It isn't fair for you to assume that a completely new game would have the same level of detail as a rushed expansion pack designed for the small group of DA owners who buy DLC.

We will have to disagree on that, and you misinterpret me concerning Awakenings. Awakenings was not a poorer story, IMO, I rather liked it. Nor was its length an issue. It was an expansion, so it was shorter. The point is that in order to fit in a new character, it did not feel like a continuing narrative of the Warden's Journey. Nor would your example.

And if we reach a point where we can have a whole story that is generic enough to take a non-warden character, then I hardly see the point to even bother with it. It just becomes a high level adventure that has little relation with DAO's Warden story arc (much like awakenings).

If the goal is to simply keep playing with the same character, then I yes that would work. But there is more to continuing a character's journey than throwing more adventures at him. If they want to continue the Warden's story in a meaningful way, they would have to resort to drastic measures in order to cater to all DAO players. But then this, also, has been addressed in previous posts.

Thank you.

Itkovian

Modifié par Itkovian, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Huntress]

As I saw it Arvenus solution works for any gray warden, and no, you cant get rid of the taint and live thats a draw back of been grey warden, but, maybe the solution allow you to live longer..

Not 200-400 years like the blood mage, but longer then 30 years thats for sure. I left Arvenus alive, why?

It seems grey warden of old used other views of what was right or wrong, even the mage said: charming to alsitar when complained about warden sumoning demons. I didn't see why he should die for something that wasn't a crime back then. what he did was long pass, he paid for it too been in that tower for so long.. I hope he find a cure for all grey wardens, gosh dieying at 40+ is so not right lol

[ace100000]

flemeth is not dead morrigan warns your warden about this and flemeth does not seem like a person who would forget that she received the beating of her lifetime by the warden second, in many cases wardens who took the dark ritual option are responsible for the birth of a god/demon child and third, hawke becomes "the champion" just a few years after the warden's greatest triumph ,beating the blight .these are some facts that we all, i think , can agree on . after all this " the warden "still does not show up to tie all these loose ends which are just as much related to him/her as any other character in the game than it would be one major disappointment .

[errant_knight]

Huntress wrote...

As I saw it Arvenus solution works for any gray warden, and no, you cant get rid of the taint and live thats a draw back of been grey warden, but, maybe the solution allow you to live longer..
Not 200-400 years like the blood mage, but longer then 30 years thats for sure. I left Arvenus alive, why?
It seems grey warden of old used other views of what was right or wrong, even the mage said: charming to alsitar when complained about warden sumoning demons. I didn't see why he should die for something that wasn't a crime back then. what he did was long pass, he paid for it too been in that tower for so long.. I hope he find a cure for all grey wardens, gosh dieying at 40+ is so not right lol

Summoning demons was a crime 200 years earlier, and longer. That's not a new thing. Chopping up other wardens to experiment on them...that's always been bad.

[gamedog2408]

as much as it saddens me there is no way are warden will return just think about what that would mean as far as workload.



1. there NOT going to go back to no V.O so that means they would have to create full main PC V.O for a male/female human, male/female dwarf, and a male/female ELF possible yes probable NO



2. they will have to figure out what to do with people whoes grey warden died which a talented clever bioware team can do but once again that is a lot of workload. The best thing I think they could do is what they did in awakeinig for people who didnt import there wardenwhich would mean creating an a back story and all the stuff are warden got in origins so possible yes probable NO



"ORIGINS" is definetly starting to make more since to me like our choices in the first game are kinda like the building blocks that the entire dragon age series will build upon, not necessarly the beggining of 1 heroes journey like at least I thought. Although it would of been nice to know from the beggining that DA would be more about the world kinda like assasins creed than any 1 hero before I got to attached to my warden



but with all that said I am still super excited about dragon age 2,3,4 and pretty much anything bioware does



twitter; gamedog2408 follow me

[wildannie]

Itkovian wrote...

As for the rest, I addressed the whole idea of having a story written such that it could accomodate a different hero. It is undeniable, at least in my opinion, that a story that can be handled by a generic character must be so watered down as to no longer be part of the Waden's Journey. Awakenings showed this quite well.

Playing ME2 without a ME1 save was a vastly inferior experience imo, however the story works fine without the references that made sense to a ME1 shep.  I expect that the import of an US ending playing a new character would be similar to this, the US is a choice and choices have consequenses.

itkovian wrote...
Having a handful of decisions ported over to a new story, where any character could cope with them, hardly translates in a continuation of the Warden's narrative journey.

The awakening slides all have the warden ending up either outside Ferelden, or disappearing (out of Ferelden one presumes).  If there are to be any future adventures with the Warden I expect they will take place far away from Ferelden.  This would lessen the need for too many references to individual decisions taken that had consequences in Ferelden but meant little in Thedas as a whole.

itkovian wrote...
Mind you, as stated in earlier posts, I wouldn't really mind if we got
back to the Grey Warden, but they would have to do some severe mental
gymnastics to accomodate all their endings while preserving the Warden's
journey without excluding a major portion of the player base. Somehow ressurecting the Warden might work, though it would be a bit of a stretch.

I Agree with  DSerpa regarding an origins like beginning (I may have already mentioned this earlier in the thread). 
DA2 could provide some breathing space to allow for the introduction of a voiced warden without ruffling as many feathers, as it seems unlikely that they would go back to the unvoiced character.
Another thing, the awakenings slides cancel out the variety of endings from Origins somewhat, the variety really just boils down to who the Warden is with.

[b09boy]

To prevent some huge quote spam I'll try to be basic in all this.

On the subject of the Warden in future titles: it has been hinted at that his/her story is not over.  Most endings involving the Warden have their adventures continuing in some fashion into the unknown.  This is furthered by the big cliffhanger which is basically every ending of Witch Hunt.  Whether we will play the Warden again or not is a different question (I believe we will have the opportunity to) but is their story over?  Pfft.  No way.

On the subject of the purpose of Grey Wardens: the Wardens have a sole purpose inprotecting the world from the darkspawn.  They are not do-gooders who go out adventuring for the good of all.  They are darkspawn killers and how they go about killing darkspawn differs from Warden to Warden.  Weissupt is an exception to this - one which is explicitly mentioned by Riordan.  Alistair and the Warden are also exceptions - desperate Grey Wardens with little knowledge of their order but what they must do and even then they are limited as they don't fully realize their importance in a blight and cannot find other Wardens even if they wanted abandon Ferelden to reinforcements as the only known location of another army of Wardens is thousands of miles away.  It has been mentioned before that if Duncan had stuck around he would have done things very differently and scoffed at the idea of gaining political power.

Also on the quote from Wynne about serving the people.  Do not take this so literally.  She means this in terms of sacrificing family ties, political connections and even your own life to protect them from a horrific threat.  Wardens serve the people in that they keep them alive from the big bad monsters.

[Maria Caliban]

Eski.Moe wrote...

Our Warden traveled to the far reaches of Thedas to fight the true Darkspawn. Hawke will go to join him after his journey has ended.

DA 3 will be a MMO set a thousand years after DA 2 where you can either play one of the many types of Darkspawn or one of the many types of Free Fereldens.

Yes, you can play a Warden. No, we're not worried that this makes them 'less special' or that people will only want to play Wardens or Ogres.

[XX55XX]

I imagine that we will never see our Warden ever again. I am certain that his/her actions will be alluded to by characters in DA2. However, we might get a small cameo appearance in the form of Hawke seeing the Warden in a distance, but hey, who knows?

I am not bothered. Our Warden's story is over, and Hawke's story begins.

[Aigyl]

Wall of Text incoming!


From my eyes, this is the main gist of the Pro-Warden Returns folks:

-The DR* Wardens played a significant role at the start of the DR story, and therefore should continue to be a part of the plot. It gives the player an emotional connection to Morrigan. If the player is Hawke or some other hero then the emotional connection is lost/diminished. My 'canon' Warden did the Morrigan romance and walked into the Eluvian with her so I definitely see the appeal of this.


Something I don't get with this though:

-Unless Bioware returns to silent protagonist, the odds are you will not be playing your Warden. So even if the Warden returns, you're not getting the emotional connection with Morrigan which is one of the key arguments to bring him/her back.

Assuming Bioware continues with the voiced protagonist, your Warden will be voiced if you control him/her again. The only way around this is if Bioware goes back to silent protagonist, and also lets you play the Warden again.

So basically, the emotional connection argument doesn't work in my eyes because if you're not playing the Warden then there's no connection with Morrigan anyway, and bringing the fellow
back has major complications already (voice-acting issue, head morph issue, and some Wardens  suffering from a state of being a corpse), so why spend limited resources bringing the Warden back when there's little pay-off?

-If the emotional connection argument is down, then what reason is there to bring back the Warden back at all except for fanservice? The Warden will already not be able to play an important part in the future plot by way of some Wardens being dead, so beyond a cameo (which still has the voice-acting and head morph problems, since they can't be transferred into DA2 apparently) I'm not really seeing how the Warden would enrich Morrigan's story in any major way if the emotional connection is gone.

*You don't actually need to do the DR to be tied into Morrigan's story: my Warden turned down the Ritual and then walked into the Eluvian to meet his normal kid.

Modifié par Aigyl, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Blastback]

Bioware has indicated numerous times that Dragon Age is the story of Thedas, rather than any one charater. Which is a cool artistic direction to go in. I don't begrudge them that desicion. But at the same time, the world is not what drew me in. It wasn't the events of the game, the Origins, any of that. It was the characters. Same with the Mass Effect games. The biggest reason that I came back for ME2 was to see Shepard, Tali, Garrus, Anderson and company again. I wanted to see them develop, their relationships evolve. And I am sad that I won't have that chance with Dragon Age.

[galian77]

Blastback wrote...

Bioware has indicated numerous times that Dragon Age is the story of Thedas, rather than any one charater. Which is a cool artistic direction to go in. I don't begrudge them that desicion. But at the same time, the world is not what drew me in. It wasn't the events of the game, the Origins, any of that. It was the characters. Same with the Mass Effect games. The biggest reason that I came back for ME2 was to see Shepard, Tali, Garrus, Anderson and company again. I wanted to see them develop, their relationships evolve. And I am sad that I won't have that chance with Dragon Age.

Ahh, same, I grew so attached to both my Grey Wardens when I played them and would have loved to see old companions again and watch their friendships/relationships continue. I remember Baldur's Gate did something similar. Some of your companions in BG1 were your companions again in BG2, and romances continued on into Throne of Bhaal. One of the many reasons I enjoyed Baldur's Gate so much.

But Origins did wrap up their stories pretty nicely, though, for the most part. For now I'm just content with the thought that my human noble is happily ruling Ferelden with her love, Alistair as his queen, and my elf mage is traveling and adventuring with Zevran. In both instances Morrigan is off in Mirror world with her old god baby, but such is the price you pay for a happy ending in this game, right? I'm happy enough to leave my Wardens' stories as it is for now, and look forward to moving on.

[Thalorin1919]

Yes, the wardens story is over.



Let me repeat.



The Wardens story is over. Wardens story is over. Story is over. Is over. Over.



DA2 takes place over a decade, and from what Bioware is throwing at us, it's really going to change Thedas a whole lot. Now I will agree with most that Morrigan and the God Child will be in DA3 - if there is one. As the devs have stated her story is not close to being over.



You guys need to realize the Warden is done, despite their greatness. Why? This is a few reasons.



1.) The Warden is still a silent character. How would they continue their story? I highly doubt Bioware is going to bring the Warden back as the MC for another DA game and go back to using silent text over a voice acted main character. If they were to give the Warden a voice, they would need different ones for the combos of the races and sexes, which is highly unlikely, and many people would probably complain abuot the voices anyways.



2.) The Grey Wardens live for what, 30 years at the most? DA3 could take place 20 years after the events of DA2, therefore probably eliminating the factor of the Warden out of the story - because they are dead. I see this as the most likely route. The most logical route too, as anything Morrigan is cooking up could take a long time, and a God Child is probably going to be mentored by her for a good while too before it comes out to fight the world or whatever.



But hey, I may be wrong, and call me out if I am wrong in the future. But let's just be realistic here people. We will probably ever play as the Warden again, nevertheless even see the Warden.

[Thalorin1919]

Double post.

Modifié par Thalorin1919, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:07 .