238 réponses à ce sujet

[FedericoV]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'd call removing companion armor for a set single outfit pretty damn extreme, and rogues flipping all over the place like the game was devil may cry pretty extreme as well. Untill I see some PC footage that says other wise, thats my stance as the game has been painted to be like that in every preview and leaked video thus far.

I would not say so since: a) you can stil customize companions gear's with runes and upgrades and the flashy animations are still stat-based, have cooldowns and are not twitch based like JRPG's combo.

Mind, DA2 is clearly more oriented toward action. But imho, that was the goal of DA franchise since the beginning: to blend the tactical approach to combat of oldschool CRPGs with the action sub-genre. DA:O was not a pure tactical game, it has a lot of elements borrowed from the action and mmo genre allready.

I think that I am the only one to support that position in those forums (maybe, Semper agrees with me), but my position is that DA's franchise greatest weakness in term of gameplay desing is indeed trying to be too many things in one game.

Modifié par FedericoV, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Marionetten]

Debating if something is extreme or not is rather futile. What we all can agree on is the fact that Dragon Age II has taken another step away from the ideal established by Baldur's Gate. Is this a good thing? Personally, I really don't think so since this franchise was supposed to cater to the Baldur's Gate crowd over the Mass Effect crowd. No, you can't please everyone as a business. You can however serve different tastes with different products. In my eyes, this is where BioWare has failed as a business.

Modifié par Marionetten, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[FedericoV]

Marionetten wrote...

Debating if something is extreme or not is rather futile. What we all can agree on is the fact that Dragon Age II has taken another step away from the ideal established by Baldur's Gate. Is this a good thing? Personally, I really don't think so. Especially since this franchise was supposed to cater to that audience and not the Mass Effect crowd. No, you can't please everyone. You can however serve different tastes.

Is it bad in itself to take another step from BG II? I'm a person who considers BG II his best gaming experience but I must say that it's right to try other things. And DA:O was allready very different from BG2. The similarities were mostly superficial.

My opinion is that you can't have a real "spiritual successor" to BG II without D&D.

Modifié par FedericoV, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Fortlowe]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Sure but maybe next time they won't go the extreme route and both bases can have an experience they want. What would be so wrong with that? Just rolling over and accepting it isn't going to help that cause.

Extreme? Extreme would be something like no party based combat (I mean, henchmen instead of companions). No pause & play controll. No inventory. DA2 seems to be still in the middle of the road so to say. Yep, more actiony and so on, but still very similar to DA:O in the general approach.

I'd call removing companion armor for a set single outfit pretty damn extreme, and rogues flipping all over the place like the game was devil may cry pretty extreme as well. Untill I see some PC footage that says other wise, thats my stance as the game has been painted to be like that in every preview and leaked video thus far.

The rogues needed a style of combat to distinguish them from warriors. It should be as much of a difference between them as warriors and mages.

[Wulfram]

Fortlowe wrote...

The rogues needed a style of combat to distinguish them from warriors. It should be as much of a difference between them as warriors and mages.

Why?

And if the distinction had to be made, why did it have look so silly?

[FedericoV]

Wulfram wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

The rogues needed a style of combat to distinguish them from warriors. It should be as much of a difference between them as warriors and mages.

Why?

Because many rogues players lamented that they just feel like warriors in light armour.

And if the distinction had to be made, why did it have look so silly?

The animation are not silly. You can have that feeling if you spam them over and over again during the exagerated part of the demo, but it does not seems so in the normal part.

And having said that,I suppose that the animation looks very flashy because the distinction between Rogues and Warriors is mostly artificial in a game like DA:O or DA2 so you need to exagerate the stylish differences to reach some kind of uniqueness.

[MerinTB]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Aumata wrote...
Dragon age had a ton of quest? I will admit that it got overload when doing the deep roads, but after some point I kinda did it all in one go.

It wasn't one of my complaints, but apparently it came up enough in the focus groups or something.  In any case it doesn't bother me one way or another.

Those focus groups need to die in a  be fired then.

Fixed it so I could agree with you.

[Fortlowe]

Well, silly is a matter of perspective isn't it? I like the new evasive manuevers. I don't liken them to Devil May Cry (never played that game mind you, but I've seen enough of it to tell it isn't my cup of tea). I liken the rogue combat to be more like what the rogues abilities were advertised as in DA:O; highly dexterious. I don't see that as being any more (and quite possibly less) unbelievable as summoning a blizzard or wearing full plate armor 24/7.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Wulfram]

FedericoV wrote...

The animation are not silly. You can have that feeling if you spam them over and over again during the exagerated part of the demo, but it does not seems so in the normal part.

The video I've seen of the non-exaggerated part still looks silly.  Even the way Hawke holds his weapons when he's not doing anything is utterly ridiculous

And having said that,I suppose that the animation looks very flashy because the distinction between Rogues and Warriors is mostly artificial in a game like DA:O or DA2 so you need to exagerate the stylish differences to reach some kind of uniqueness.

The better solution if no sensible distinction could be made would
have been to simply merge the two classes, and let the player mix
underhand tactics and stealth with more straightforward tactics as they
wished

Or just leave them similar.  I don't see why it's a bad thing for the difference to be fairly minor

[Marionetten]

FedericoV wrote...

Is it bad in itself to take another step from BG II? I'm a person who considers BG II his best gaming experience but I must say that it's right to try other things. And DA:O was allready very different from BG2. The similarities were mostly superficial.

Oh, I fully agree with you about Dragon Age: Origins. That in itself was a HUGE step away from Baldur's Gate so I'm not surprised to see Dragon Age II taking the franchise even further away. That said, I didn't like the changes BioWare made with Dragon Age: Origins. I didn't like the regenerating health or the simplified inventory. It stands to reason that I won't like the emphasis on instant gratification combined with an even further simplified inventory.

And this is why BioWare has failed me. Instead of going for two different experiences ( Baldur's Gate versus Mass Effect ) they've opted to mix them. The lines are being blurred one after the other and I can't say I like that as I'm not a fan of the Mass Effect ideal.

FedericoV wrote...

My opinion is that you can't have a real "spiritual successor" to BG II without D&D.

D&D made the job easier for BioWare. No doubt about that. There's a big difference between adopting a system and creating a system. While I certainly believe it's possible to create a system equal to D&D it would take a lot of work. Perhaps too much.

Modifié par Marionetten, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[MerinTB]

Marionetten wrote...
 No, you can't please everyone as a business. You can however serve different tastes with different products. In my eyes, this is where BioWare has failed as a business.

Something the movie industry hasn't learned yet at all...

but he music industry, thanks to the internet and digital downloads, has started to.

Catering certain games to certain niches isn't a bad business decision.  It's the counter-programming that you do kinda see at the box office (big budget action flick slated, other action flicks move their release dates BUT indie films and romances sidle in to catch the audience that is not being served that weekend by the exploison-fest film.)

Prior to Mass Effect (and ignoring Jade Empire for a moment) you could say that BioWare was feeding one sorta-niche.  Now with Mass Effect on one side, Dragon Age: Origins on another, and TOR on a third... they WERE seemingly attempting to feed three niches - action rpg fans with the ME series (with style over substance, story over customization), old-school cRPG fans with DA:O (as mediocre a result as it was, it was an attempt I believe and successful enough for me), and MMORPG fans (though all the advertising and marketing really seems like they are trying to alienate MMO fans (I'm not an MMO fan, just to be clear) with the focus on story and VO - not big things for the MMORPG crowd.

In reality it seems like instead of broadening their brand by having different game IPs that are appealing to some very different audiences that they are trying to merge audiences by throwing some elements of different game genres into a blender, hitting puree, and delivering the largely unsatisfying mush that Hollywood blockbusters are.  "Meh" movies meant to draw in the largest crowds possible regardless of the crowd's overall enthusiasm on leaving.  It's a short term winner, usually, but a long term recipe for failure historically (IMO.)

The game industry can't get much bigger with their games, though they keep going that way, and like Hollywood will have to realize at some point that just because you through more money, bigger talent, and flashier effect into a game that you cannot increase the saturation point - only so many people are going to buy your game no matter HOW GOOD it turns out to be, and outliers like Avatar (for movies) and WoW (for video games) are not goals to target realistically.

Some day, hopefully soon, both industries will wisen up and realize that having several smaller very satisfied audiences instead of one large barely sated audience will give them better PR, at least the same profits if not better, and happier employees (creators like to be creative, and more audiencs allows for different kinds of creativity.)

[YuniSticksitDeep]

Dragon Age 2 Preview
http://g4tv.com/game...-Age-2-Preview/
http://files.g4tv.co...ragon-Age-2.jpg
Article_72782








QUOTE"

Dragon Age 2 Preview

By

Christopher Monfette

- Posted Nov 12, 2010












It’s hard to imagine that Dragon Age II
is releasing only a few short months from now. In fact, it feels like
we just finished our quest for the Grey Wardens only a few short months
ago, but at EA’s recent press event, we had the chance to go hands-on
with a very brief section of the game.



Our immediate impressions from the scant ten minutes we were able to play is that the same streamlining that occurred between Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 is occurring here between Dragon Age
and its upcoming sequel. We noticed immediately that the menu screens
and HUD had been both simplified and minimized, much easier to process
at a glance and less of a presence on the screen itself.














Dragon Age 2 Preview
http://g4tv.com/game...-Age-2-Preview/
http://files.g4tv.co...ragon-Age-2.jpg
Article_72782
QUOTE"

Welcome PC users. to the Future/Present  world of  Console Ports....(I weep for us all)

Yuni<3

[FedericoV]

Wulfram wrote...

The video I've seen of the non-exaggerated part still looks silly

Well, you should admit that it depends on the ability of the player too. You know, the kiting bethany viedo was ridiculous because the player does not know what to do with an Xbox controller. 

The better solution if no sensible distinction could be made would
have been to simply merge the two classes, and let the player mix
underhand tactics and stealth with more straightforward tactics as they
wished

Dear Lord... thanks! Finally someone who agrees with me on that one! I agree, the better solution would be to blend warriors and rogues in a single "fighter" class with lot of customization options.

Or just leave them similar.  I don't see why it's a bad thing for the difference to be fairly minor

Ask it to rogues players. There was a series of thread dedicated to each class on the DA:O's board and the uniqueness thing was one of the major remark about how rogues played out.

[Tsuga C]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Sure but maybe next time they won't go the extreme route and both bases can have an experience they want. What would be so wrong with that? Just rolling over and accepting it isn't going to help that cause.

Truth be told, I'm hardcore Old School and it's imposible to find a medium that'll please me (us, Sarah?) and the ME2 crowd.  In terms of what I want in a solid cRPG, BioWare hit its high-water mark with the Hordes of the Underdark expansion pack and the score or so of updates that went with the NWN1 series all the way up through 1.69.  DA:O was a welcome throwback that captured most but not all of what I wanted, but it lacked the user-friendly toolset that I routinely used to create customized gear and such for modules from the Vault.  It also failed to really live up the the Low Magic aspect of the setting that was spoken about in the early stages of its development.

The marketing of DA2 is proving to be as atrocious as was the later marketing of DA:O.  What I want is X for Generation Xers, not Y for the Gen Ys.  As was noted earlier in this thread, EAWare shows us something that's clearly Y and then trots out a developer to assure us Old Schoolers that what we read/saw is really X with a light gloss of Y to satisfy the action-gamer, console-type segment of the market whom their new masters at EA prize so highly.  Color me dissatisfied, EAWare.   You've stretched my credulity too far by half and I'm not alone in this assessment.

Let the ME series be what it is for the action/console segment of the market with a secondary port to PC and keep the DA series a traditional, hardcore cRPG for PCs with a secondary port to console.  Do not dilute the nature of the DA series to chase the shibboleth of the universally satisfying game.  Such a thing does not exist, nor can it.

Modifié par Tsuga C, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Fortlowe]

I never played Baldur's Gate or D&D. I am passionate about DA though. It is a brilliant piece of work in and of itself and I think if one were to look at it without burdening the experience with a notion of it being a spiritual successor to anything else, as I have, then all of the changes that have been made for DA2, will be decidedly more favorable.



I realize that the likely response to that position will be that it is because I never played those games, I lack the perspective I need to understand the gravity of these changes, and that because I only play videogames on a console, I am in no position to judge due to my proclivety for responsive and visualy fulfilling gameplay. I submit, that simply put, DA:O is not those games. It's not Final Fantasy (another franchise I've never played) or Golden Axe, either. It's a far deeper and more engrossing experiance. I feel that Dragon Age is it's own game and isn't subject to any other, and DA2 will only broaden that distinction. So, instead of dwelling on what it isn't or won't be, try to veiw it for what it was and can be. It might be a lot better than you give it credit.

[FedericoV]

Marionetten wrote...
Oh, I fully agree with you about Dragon Age: Origins. That in itself was a HUGE step away from Baldur's Gate so I'm not surprised to see Dragon Age II taking the franchise even further away. That said, I didn't like the changes BioWare made with Dragon Age: Origins. I didn't like the regenerating health or the simplified inventory. It stands to reason that I won't like the emphasis on instant gratification combined with an even further simplified inventory.

I would have liked more a BG II clone with updated graphics too (something like what Blizzard has done with SC2). But I can enjoy different kind of games especially from Bioware since I do not play their games only for their gameplay.

And this is why BioWare has failed me. Instead of going for two different experiences ( Baldur's Gate versus Mass Effect ) they've opted to mix them. The lines are being blurred one after the other and I can't say I like that as I'm not a fan of the Mass Effect ideal.

I respect that kind of criticism if it's "against" the whole franchise and not DA2 only. Let's say that DA:O in my eyes suffered from somekind of uncertainty in terms of design, while trying to blend two completely different kind of gameplay styles. So I can understand why they have make such decision for DA2, especially because the consolle version of the game suffered too much because of that uncertainty. Maybe, some person like you would like the game less and I respect that, but imho the game will be better overall, becuase at least they are trying to move the franchise toward a direction.

FedericoV wrote...

My opinion is that you can't have a real "spiritual successor" to BG II without D&D.

D&D made the job easier for BioWare. No doubt about that. There's a big difference between adopting a system and creating a system. While I certainly believe it's possible to create a system equal to D&D it would take a lot of work. Perhaps too much.

D&D has 30 years of history and playtesting. Hard to replicate (and maybe even pointless). But you cannot do another BG without that kind of rule system imho.

Modifié par FedericoV, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[LexXxich]

This review seems to be almost deliberately pushing all the red buttons. And Bioware taking it's time to reveal how DA2 plays on PC doesn't look reassuring either.

[Martanek]

Marionetten wrote...

Debating if something is extreme or not is rather futile. What we all can agree on is the fact that Dragon Age II has taken another step away from the ideal established by Baldur's Gate. Is this a good thing? Personally, I really don't think so since this franchise was supposed to cater to the Baldur's Gate crowd over the Mass Effect crowd. No, you can't please everyone as a business. You can however serve different tastes with different products. In my eyes, this is where BioWare has failed as a business.

Completely agreed here.. Bioware's efforts to shift DA2 more towards ME2's simplified RPG experience is pretty obvious. With DA2, Bioware seems to have been ignoring old-school BG fans like me and many others who have been with Bioware since their pioneer beginnings.
Unfortunately, ME2 and now DA2 points to a clear trend in Bioware's business strategy. Still, Bioware should note that not everyone wants DA2 to become a hack 'n' slash game with RPG elements. Hopefully, we see a PC gameplay footage soon to be able to pass final judgements on an actual nature of DA2.

[Lyssistr]

YuniSticksitDeep wrote...


Welcome PC users. to the Future/Present  world of  Console Ports....(I weep for us all)

 Hey, we still have Blizz 

[Tsuga C]

Fortlowe wrote...

...I lack the perspective I need to understand the gravity of these changes...

This is an important admission and is key to understanding why the Old Schoolers are highly P.O.'d over what we've read, seen, and directly experienced from the material released post-DA:O, DA2 previews included.

[Fortlowe]

Tsuga C wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

...I lack the perspective I need to understand the gravity of these changes...

This is an important admission and is key to understanding why the Old Schoolers are highly P.O.'d over what we've read, seen, and directly experienced from the material released post-DA:O, DA2 previews included.

I also said that I appreciated DA:O in and of itself, and that it is that perspective that many of you 'old schoolers' are likely missing. Your judgment is clouded by a different game entirely. So much so that you're judging DA2 by a standard that doesn't even exist. Quoting me out of context is a symptom of that tainted view.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[Martanek]

FedericoV wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I'd call removing companion armor for a set single outfit pretty damn extreme, and rogues flipping all over the place like the game was devil may cry pretty extreme as well. Untill I see some PC footage that says other wise, thats my stance as the game has been painted to be like that in every preview and leaked video thus far.

I would not say so since: a) you can stil customize companions gear's with runes and upgrades and the flashy animations are still stat-based, have cooldowns and are not twitch based like JRPG's combo.

Mind, DA2 is clearly more oriented toward action. But imho, that was the goal of DA franchise since the beginning: to blend the tactical approach to combat of oldschool CRPGs with the action sub-genre. DA:O was not a pure tactical game, it has a lot of elements borrowed from the action and mmo genre allready.

I think that I am the only one to support that position in those forums (maybe, Semper agrees with me), but my position is that DA's franchise greatest weakness in term of gameplay desing is indeed trying to be too many things in one game.

In other words, you basically claim that turning away from DA:O's RPG roots toward ME2's simplified RPG experience is a good thing?
Secondly, I totally disagree with a second sentence of yours in the second paragraph. DA:O was supposed and  advertised to be a spiritual successor to the BG series. Considering DA:O a blend of sorts described above is purely your interpretation. I am firmly convinced that nobody at Bioware ever thought of DA:O being "a blend" or being an action game "plus something" in the first place. Again, this is a wishful thinking of some people on these forums.
Finally, I do not think we need to see another mainstream-oriented, dumbed-down, ME2-based gameplay. Truly, it was enough once. It would be very unhealthy to serve such an insipid and lame RPG meal a second time.

[upsettingshorts]

Sometimes it feels like posting on these forums is like a message board port of Whack-A-Mole. I don't wanna play anymore.

[Derengard]

Hopefully there'll be a demo at some point, which should be more feasible if the "streamlining" extends to the technical architecture. Since with The Witcher 2 coming, I won't need to buy the only decent fantasy game blindly, and I'm more a fan of The Witcher's look already.

[addiction21]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sometimes it feels like posting on these forums is like a message board port of Whack-A-Mole. I don't wanna play anymore.

And it is a poorly ported streamlined version of Whack-A-Mole.