221 réponses à ce sujet

[Gill Kaiser]

To me, the bottom line is that these previews are all from the console version, which has been confirmed by the devs as being more action-oriented than the PC version. Therefore, I won't be perturbed until I start hearing the same things about the PC version.

[slimgrin]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

To me, the bottom line is that these previews are all from the console version, which has been confirmed by the devs as being more action-oriented than the PC version. Therefore, I won't be perturbed until I start hearing the same things about the PC version.

Which we should hear about in 2-3 months from now. Thats fine, I suppose. I can make up my mind then.

But for now, it's safe to say console gamers will get their awesomeness.

Modifié par slimgrin, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[LTD]

Saibh wrote...

LTD wrote...

Archereon wrote...

TL;DR: Why the hell is Bioware content to have every single reviewer they allowed to demo the game call Dragon Age 2 a hack and slash, claim its been dumbed down for the greater good of casuals...

Maybe because there is a good possibility that's exactly what we will be having? Any and all info I've come across regarding  game mechanics screams simplification and downgrading the action of DA:O to a ballbark of  Devil May Cry clones.

Despite the actual review saying it still retains its tactical nuance? And despite us having seen the talent tree and Hawke's inventory?

30 seconds of gameplay that does not look terrible and I will sitch back to humble eager fanboi mode with joy:p

Are you seriously saying that any and all changes we have heard/seen regarding combat and it's overall feel does not scream " simplification" ?

[Archereon]

slimgrin wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

To me, the bottom line is that these previews are all from the console version, which has been confirmed by the devs as being more action-oriented than the PC version. Therefore, I won't be perturbed until I start hearing the same things about the PC version.

Which we should hear about in 2-3 months from now. Thats fine, I suppose. I can make up my mind then.

But for know, it's safe to say console gamers will get their awesomeness.

And they might just say: "PC gamers?  What are those, 10, 5, 2% of our userbase?  Screw ew', lets just toss the PC game over to some random side company in EA to port, depsite the fact that they'll do it so bad that the game will be unplayable.  We can't get in trouble since games in production are 'subject to change.'"

Now I can't imagine, by any stretch of the imagination that it could get that bad, but really, there's a good chance Bioware is exagerating the differnces between PC and console.

[Saibh]

LTD wrote...

30 seconds of gameplay that does not look terrible and I will sitch back to humble eager fanboi mode with joy:p

Are you seriously saying that any and all changes we have heard/seen regarding combat and it's overall feel does not scream " simplification" ?

Depends. Companion inventory, certainly--I'm not really sold on that.

Besides that...I haven't heard about simplifications. Tactics is still there. It's faster, though. More reactive.

I'd find it if I could, but there are leaked demo videos out there that show a player pausing and assessing the battlefield, laying out plans and directing companions. He does much better than the guy who kites and kills enemies and gets his whole party killed.

edit: And I mean major ones, not "the menu is cleaner now".

Modifié par Saibh, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Firky]

Archereon wrote...

Some of them even called it an outright Hack and Slash, and that's starting to worry me more and more as Bioware seemingly refuses to ask for corrections.

Are you suggesting they aren't "correcting" previewers as part of a marketing ploy to appeal to console gamers? Or that this suggests Bioware doesn't care about marketing its game? I'm guessing neither is the case.

Wouldn't you prefer previewers just gave their honest opinion on the demo? It'd be kinda strange if the preview had, like, a retraction saying. "At the request of Bioware, we would like to acknowedge that our initial impression as Hack and Slash was inaccurate. (etc etc explaining why it isn't)"

[Archereon]

Firky wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Some of them even called it an outright Hack and Slash, and that's starting to worry me more and more as Bioware seemingly refuses to ask for corrections.

Are you suggesting they aren't "correcting" previewers as part of a marketing ploy to appeal to console gamers? Or that this suggests Bioware doesn't care about marketing its game? I'm guessing neither is the case.

Wouldn't you prefer previewers just gave their honest opinion on the demo? It'd be kinda strange if the preview had, like, a retraction saying. "At the request of Bioware, we would like to acknowedge that our initial impression as Hack and Slash was inaccurate. (etc etc explaining why it isn't)"

I'd prefer for reviewers to retract an article that grossly misrepresented the game.

[slimgrin]

Archereon wrote...

And they might just say: "PC gamers?  What are those, 10, 5, 2% of our userbase?  Screw ew', lets just toss the PC game over to some random side company in EA to port, depsite the fact that they'll do it so bad that the game will be unplayable.  We can't get in trouble since games in production are 'subject to change.'"

Bioware hasn't done this yet. Actually, ME1's port to pc was very thorough and that was outsourced. But I have experienced enough half-assed ports from other publishers to be slightly on edge about this.

[Saibh]

Firky wrote...

Are you suggesting they aren't "correcting" previewers as part of a marketing ploy to appeal to console gamers? Or that this suggests Bioware doesn't care about marketing its game? I'm guessing neither is the case.

Wouldn't you prefer previewers just gave their honest opinion on the demo? It'd be kinda strange if the preview had, like, a retraction saying. "At the request of Bioware, we would like to acknowedge that our initial impression as Hack and Slash was inaccurate. (etc etc explaining why it isn't)"

"Instead, it plays as a Real-Time Strategy game with Life Simulation (thus explaining how it is possible to romance a village) elements added in. We at G4 would like to sincerely apologize to the folks at BioWare and the fans for this most egregious error."

Modifié par Saibh, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Leonia]

I think the reviewers are just lazy.

[Firky]

Archereon wrote...
I'd prefer for reviewers to retract an article that grossly misrepresented the game.

Fair enough. But, they played the demo and they have an opinion. It's not like they pretended to play it.

[Archereon]

Firky wrote...

Archereon wrote...
I'd prefer for reviewers to retract an article that grossly misrepresented the game.

Fair enough. But, they played the demo and they have an opinion. It's not like they pretended to play it.

Then the question naturally shifts to "Why are they all getting the opinion that: Dragon Age 2 has been streamlined in a manner similar to mass effect; the combat is a hack and slash; its less of an RPG, more of an action game; ect?"

[Leonia]

Archereon wrote...

Firky wrote...

Archereon wrote...
I'd prefer for reviewers to retract an article that grossly misrepresented the game.

Fair enough. But, they played the demo and they have an opinion. It's not like they pretended to play it.

Then the question naturally shifts to "Why are they all getting the opinion that: Dragon Age 2 has been streamlined in a manner similar to mass effect; the combat is a hack and slash; its less of an RPG, more of an action game; ect?"

Because they've only played about 10 minutes of an unfinished product and it's easy to just throw around words like "hack and slash" than it is to go into further detail? It's easy for journalists to compare one thing to something they are already familiar with. 

Take a huge pinch of salt with each review you read, especially those put out before the game has released.

[Archereon]

leonia42 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Firky wrote...

Archereon wrote...
I'd prefer for reviewers to retract an article that grossly misrepresented the game.

Fair enough. But, they played the demo and they have an opinion. It's not like they pretended to play it.

Then the question naturally shifts to "Why are they all getting the opinion that: Dragon Age 2 has been streamlined in a manner similar to mass effect; the combat is a hack and slash; its less of an RPG, more of an action game; ect?"

Because they've only played about 10 minutes of an unfinished product and it's easy to just throw around words like "hack and slash" than it is to go into further detail? It's easy for journalists to compare one thing to something they are already familiar with. 

Take a huge pinch of salt with each review you read, especially those put out before the game has released.

If the early gameplay plays like a hack and slash, why isn't Bioware, you know, telling the reviewers that the final gamplay will be, you know, more tactical?

[slimgrin]

Archereon wrote...

Then the question naturally shifts to "Why are they all getting the opinion that: Dragon Age 2 has been streamlined in a manner similar to mass effect; the combat is a hack and slash; its less of an RPG, more of an action game; ect?"

Because they haven't had time to experience the full game. Laidlaw has stated repeatedly that the complexity and depth unfolds gradually, which I think is a great approach, as long as that really happens. In ME2 I kept waiting for it to happen...and waiting...and waiting. And then the game was over. I still loved it, but complex and deep it was not.

If they remedy this in DA2 I'll be thrilled, awarding a +1000 to Bioware. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[Leonia]

Archereon wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Firky wrote...

Archereon wrote...
I'd prefer for reviewers to retract an article that grossly misrepresented the game.

Fair enough. But, they played the demo and they have an opinion. It's not like they pretended to play it.

Then the question naturally shifts to "Why are they all getting the opinion that: Dragon Age 2 has been streamlined in a manner similar to mass effect; the combat is a hack and slash; its less of an RPG, more of an action game; ect?"

Because they've only played about 10 minutes of an unfinished product and it's easy to just throw around words like "hack and slash" than it is to go into further detail? It's easy for journalists to compare one thing to something they are already familiar with. 

Take a huge pinch of salt with each review you read, especially those put out before the game has released.

If the early gameplay plays like a hack and slash, why isn't Bioware, you know, telling the reviewers that the final gamplay will be, you know, more tactical?

Have you been on these forums long? They have been doing that, consistently. Do a search for some of Laidlaw's post. Reviewers are constantly jumping to conclusions but the devs have always told us straight up what is going on. If you're relying on reviewers for accurate information, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

[Firky]

@Arch Well, I'm not following it super closely but my impression has been that previews have been quite varied.



I wouldn't say that "all" people who preview or play the demo got a hack and slash impression. (I didn't.)

[addiction21]

leonia42 wrote...

Have you been on these forums long? They have been doing that, consistently. Do a search for some of Laidlaw's post. Reviewers are constantly jumping to conclusions but the devs have always told us straight up what is going on. If you're relying on reviewers for accurate information, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

That right there.

Its no difference then the one recent review stating how Kirkwall was empty and sterile even tho he was told in ADVANCE that it was not complete, the "flavor" NPCs not placed, and that populating these areas are one of the last things to be done.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Perhaps this is the REAL reason Bioware keepts taking down gameplay vids and is trying to censor as much as possible. Are bait and switch tactics the future of EA games? Sure seems that way.

[Ziggeh]

Archereon wrote...

If the early gameplay plays like a hack and slash, why isn't Bioware, you know, telling the reviewers that the final gamplay will be, you know, more tactical?

Because they want to sell to people to whom "hack'n'slash" isn't a synonym for "awful", but something they might actively seek. Sure they want to sell it to people who are interested in a more tactical approach too, but they know they (we) are more likely to buy it regardless of what we see or hear in the next few months, and while you risk isolating some of these people, well, firstly, the other demographic is bigger, but they're also more likely to seek information out, rather than have it cross their path as part of a campaign.

It's just efficient marketing to talk buttons of awesomeness in public and post tactical on the forums.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:03 .

[Brockololly]

slimgrin wrote...
Laidlaw has stated repeatedly that the complexity and depth unfolds gradually, which I think is a great approach, as long as that really happens. In ME2 I kept waiting for it to happen...and waiting...and waiting. And then the game was over. I still loved it, but complex and deep it was not.

Amen to that.

Its fine if they smooth out the progression curve and ease players into the game, but too often in games, all the focus seems to be centered easing new players in and making everything "accessable" such that any later level depth or complexity is either missing or shallow. And from all of the previews I've read thus far, its all about simplifying Origins and making it more hack and slash . If thats the impression that a previewer is walking away with after seeing just 10 minutes of DA2 that has me wondering about the rest of the game.

I've yet to read any preview of the PC version at all post Gamescom, and no preview that expounds on how the game will actually build on the depth present in Origins, just how DA2 is essentially ripping up the foundation and making it all simpler and streamlined like ME2. The much better BioWare sequel they should be taking cues from would be BG2., not ME2.

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 novembre 2010 - 04:51 .

[Archereon]

Have you been on these forums long? They have been doing that, consistently. Do a search for some of Laidlaw's post. Reviewers are constantly jumping to conclusions but the devs have always told us straight up what is going on. If you're relying on reviewers for accurate information, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

Correction: Laidlaw constantly bounces around the issue, explaining what's actually happening vaguely enough for multiple interpretations, and avoids simply stating "no this is not happening."

Plus there's still the fact that high profile reviewers keep calling DA2 a hack and slash.  While you might want to misrepresent your game as something far better than it is, I don't see why you'd want it misrepresented as something extremely controversial (A hack and slash or hardcore RPG).

[Firky]

Archereon wrote...

Correction: Laidlaw constantly bounces around the issue, explaining what's actually happening vaguely enough for multiple interpretations, and avoids simply stating "no this is not happening."

Not that I'm trying to be argumentative, because marketing and press and such are always an interesting discussion IMO, but I don't really get this impression either. The "official" posts I've seen seem informative to me, in general. (But I haven't seen every single one, obviously.) Maybe its a matter for interpretation. (Which is why we need free press, which goes back again in a circle.)

One way or another, the dev imput here is really good. Have you seen the 2K forums? Many fans of the Civ series were disappointed with Civ V but you rarely see anyone official poke their head out there. *shrugs* I'm a big fan of the Civ series (thank goodness Civ IV wasn't on Steam because I do not want to know how many hours I sunk into that one) and I thought Civ V was great, anyway. It depends a lot on individual preferences too, perhaps; there is no one right way to enjoy games. 

[Rattleface]

It's just marketing. They did the same thing with DA:O near the end.

So nothing to worry about folks, all part of the show.

[AlanC9]

It's a cute thread, but the basic premise is silly:

Archereon wrote...

...and a shift away from more hardcore RPG nature of its predecessor...

Here's another statement, this time from the G4 Dragon Age Preview.  Its in gross conflict with the statements devs give on the fourms regarding the gameplay changes between Dragon Age 1 and Dragon Age 2, just like practically other source besides Bioware itself...

"Hardcore RPG" has no accepted definition. Even if "hardcore RPG" did have an accepted definition, Bioware has never said that DA2 was going to be a "hardcore RPG". And even if Bioware had said that DA2 was going to be a hardcore RPG, G4 saying that it isn't one is meaningless without evidence to back it up. What counts is what's actually in the game, and there's nothing in the G4 preview or any other that contradicts what Bioware has said about the game except in cases where the reviewer has been, simply, wrong.

If you want to make a case that Bioware has made generalizations about DA2 that are not borne out by the known specifics, go ahead. But G4's opinion is neither here nor there.

Edit: of course, you're talking about the "feel" of the game, so specifics won't help much. "Hack and Slash" is a pretty vacuous concept too. But let's say that DA2 does feel like a hack and slash game, whatever that means. Laidlaw's already on record as saying that he does not see the distinction between action game and RPG as being worth preserving. So even if DA2 feels like a "hack and slash" game, so what?

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .