221 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...
Because they haven't had time to experience the full game. Laidlaw has stated repeatedly that the complexity and depth unfolds gradually, which I think is a great approach, as long as that really happens. In ME2 I kept waiting for it to happen...and waiting...and waiting. And then the game was over. I still loved it, but complex and deep it was not.

I didn't follow ME2 too closely prerelease, but I don't recall them talking about complexity and depth much as goals.

[Leonia]

Just to add to what Flaminstrel just said (very nice post, btw), the terms "Hack and Slash", "Streamlining", "Hardcore RPG", "Dragon Effect" or anything similar are all subjective. You will never get a consensus on this forum or others as to the absolutely correct definitions for those terms. That's why I cringe eve time I see them, there's no way one can argue effectively with such biased terminology (which it always ends up being because posters will use those terms in the way only they see fit and expect everyone else to understand the terms the same way they do).

Modifié par leonia42, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[KhorinShizucor]

Gah I wish I could remember which thread I read this but Mike Laidlaw or another dev did say you COULD play DAII like a hack and slash but up to a certain point. Eventually the battles will be harder and you'll have to start "thinking like a general", ie issuing orders to companions, surveying the battlefield, and acting accordingly. I'm aware that some players can just button mash (on PC or console) as someone has posted in this forum they did in DAO.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, filaminstrel nailed it, and I didn't.



It's not like there's any dispute over the changes that are being made. Anyone who's been following this knows what's being done, at least for the elements that Bioware has talked about so far. But the meaning of those changes is not something that Laidlaw can tell us, or G4, or anyone else. We have to decide that for ourselves.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Saibh wrote...

I don't think I've felt lied to about DA2.

I don't see how we possibly could without having seen the game.

Unless the devs directly contradict themselves, of course.  Then they'd obviously have to be lying about something.

[Althraniir]

As many have said, only the console version has been previewed at this point. Myself being one who only had the console version (because I don't have money for a desktop that would run the games pretty enough for my tastes), I was playing through the whole game thinking, "Wow, this combat would be alot easier to execute if i was using a keyboard and mouse."



Going on my player experience with the first game, it makes a good deal of sense to make the gameplay less traditional and more action-y for the console version whilst retaining the feel of the first game for those of you blessed by the gaming gods with the snazzy super-PC's.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Archereon wrote...


TL;DR: Why the hell is Bioware content to have every single reviewer they allowed to demo the game call Dragon Age 2 a hack and slash, claim its been dumbed down for the greater good of casuals (no offense to casual gamers, its just the way certain reviewers talk...), or even go so far as to say that Bioware is finally moving away from the dreaded RPG genre (yes, one person actually said that.)?

So, you basically want every previewer to be dishonest...now that would be awesome, right? Bioware needs to calm RPG players because right now, every piece of info leaked is a clear proof for all the critics to be right when it comes to a more hack n slash game and the single excuse for not showing us any of the "still tactical battles on PC" is..."they are too big to carry around". 

Think about this: what would happen if we actually saw footage from a PC where we see tactical combat? Yes, everyone would be satisfied. Why wouldn't Bioware do this? Either because they want to...create some suspense or because the critics are right and combat IS hack n slay orientated.

[Maconbar]

Archereon wrote...

abat223 wrote...

You've been posting negative stuff for a while now.. based on 10 minutes of a demo that was released months ago.. why don't you go outside, or just wait for reviews?

Insomnia sucks man...And so does waiting...Besides, there are a LOT of reviews out there already, and they're all saying the same discouraging things.

Actually what you have been reading are Previews based on the console. You could be right but you are more likely to be right if you wait for a Review of the PC version.

[Apollo Starflare]

I do think there has been a surprisingly large degree of miscommunication between previewers and Bioware for DA2 so far, no doubt brought about in part by the fact they are changing things up a bit for the game and journo's are sort of taking that idea and running with it when they write their articles. That said the standard of journalism in the games industry hardly seems that high sometimes. I'm comfortable enough after reading the dev responses on the forums, although I don't think it would hurt for Bioware to release some stuff that is aimed more at hardcore RPG fans at some point.

Modifié par Apollo Starflare, 13 novembre 2010 - 12:18 .

[Piecake]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Archereon wrote...


TL;DR: Why the hell is Bioware content to have every single reviewer they allowed to demo the game call Dragon Age 2 a hack and slash, claim its been dumbed down for the greater good of casuals (no offense to casual gamers, its just the way certain reviewers talk...), or even go so far as to say that Bioware is finally moving away from the dreaded RPG genre (yes, one person actually said that.)?

So, you basically want every previewer to be dishonest...now that would be awesome, right? Bioware needs to calm RPG players because right now, every piece of info leaked is a clear proof for all the critics to be right when it comes to a more hack n slash game and the single excuse for not showing us any of the "still tactical battles on PC" is..."they are too big to carry around". 

Think about this: what would happen if we actually saw footage from a PC where we see tactical combat? Yes, everyone would be satisfied. Why wouldn't Bioware do this? Either because they want to...create some suspense or because the critics are right and combat IS hack n slay orientated.

They obviously have their own time table about how they want to market the game.  Plus, it makes very little sense to target your marketing campaign at your hardcore fan base.  Your hardcore fan base, even if they dont like some of the stuff being shown, will continue to follow the game closely.  Meaning it really doesnt matter if they show the pc demo tommorrow or next week or next month, we will still be here.

[-Semper-]

Saibh wrote...

In any case, different reviewers have different opinions. G4 literally said nothing I did not know. They just had a different take on it. Honestly, you're the one being misleading--the article itself says it's more action-y, but the strategic and tactical nature is still in place.

there is no way you have room to implement two completely different fighting systems in one game! one will always lacking depth. it's the same effort like trying to attrack the real time and turn based audience the same time within one game - that never works.

[upsettingshorts]

-Semper- wrote...
 it's the same effort like trying to attrack the real time and turn based audience the same time within one game - that never works.

You're right, that would be totally unheard of!

...oh.

As far as DA:2 goes, it's not.  The presentation is more actiony but the gameplay is the same.  Seems like they could accomplish both to me.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Pronto One]

As long as DA doens't go to level of hack and slash as some of the 'other' console available RPGs, i will be happy. But, i guess you oculd say that DA has been 'dumbed down' since they have go rid of the ability to play other races except the human. I seriously doubt they will downgrade the immersion capabilities of DA2 just to suit casuals. It was DA:O's experience that made it so popular and they would be kicking themselves if they turned their backs on all the fans.



Only time will tell....



-Pronto

[nightcobra]

Pronto One wrote...

As long as DA doens't go to level of hack and slash as some of the 'other' console available RPGs, i will be happy. But, i guess you oculd say that DA has been 'dumbed down' since they have go rid of the ability to play other races except the human. I seriously doubt they will downgrade the immersion capabilities of DA2 just to suit casuals. It was DA:O's experience that made it so popular and they would be kicking themselves if they turned their backs on all the fans.

Only time will tell....

-Pronto

you could also say that having multiple origins dumbed down the main story for it to make sense for every origin. it's all about resource management.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:15 .

[upsettingshorts]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

you could also say that having multiple origins dumbed down the main story for it to make sense for every origin. it's all about resource management.

Considering Bioware has said that the story of DA:2 wouldn't make sense for an elf or dwarf protagonist, I'd say that's precisely the case.

[FedericoV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

-Semper- wrote...
 it's the same effort like trying to attrack the real time and turn based audience the same time within one game - that never works.

You're right, that would be totally unheard of!

...oh.

As far as DA:2 goes, it's not.  The presentation is more actiony but the gameplay is the same.  Seems like they could accomplish both to me.

I love TW games too but I do not think that they are a good example since they are not CRPG in the first place and the battles are all in real time (correct me if I'm wrong). If we should take an example of a CRPG where RT action and TB tactical mode coexist in the combat phase, the only game that comes to mind is Arcanuum. Wich was a fantastic game for many things but not because of its combat (especially the RT one).

So, I agree with Semper on that one: it's very hard to develop a system that it's as good and focused on both tactical and action gameplay. One of the two mode has to suffer or you finish with a system that is mediocre at doing both things. I would be surprised if DA2 manage to reach that goal. But even DA:O has the same problem so I don't understand all the complaints.

[upsettingshorts]

Semper didn't say turned based and real time RPG, he just listed the features. In TW the campaign is turned based and the battles are real time with pause. As far as CRPGs go Fallout 1-2 were real time during travel and turn based (with action points) during combat.

But DA:2 isn't even doing what he suggests. All they've done is add a push to attack on consoles and change the animation style. The substance of the system remains.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:24 .

[-Semper-]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You're right, that would be totally unheard of!

...oh.

always you are coming up with examples totally disconnected to the statement you are trying to shoot.
in total war there are NO fighting systems rival each other! the game series consists of two separated parts: the tactical (driven by a real time combat system) and the strategically part (driven by the turn based system)... so where is your point?! in da2 bioware tries to please two audiences THE SAME TIME, which won't work. there is no paused gameplay needed, although you could pause the game.

as an example you could bring up fallout tactics... and the real time combat system sucked ass

[upsettingshorts]

-Semper- wrote...

always you are coming up with examples totally disconnected to the statement you are trying to shoot.

Then try to state your case more clearly, eh?  My point was that yours was utter nonsense.

-Semper- wrote...
 in da2 bioware tries to please two audiences THE SAME TIME, which won't work. there is no paused gameplay needed, although you could pause the game.

No they aren't.  Paused gameplay is just as needed as in DA:O, in that I didn't need to pause in that either at non-Nightmare difficulty levels.  DA:2's demos certainly aren't being shown on Nightmare.

All they added was a single push to do a basic attack button for consoles and changed the animations, everything else is the same.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[FedericoV]

-Semper- wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You're right, that would be totally unheard of!

...oh.

always you are coming up with examples totally disconnected to the statement you are trying to shoot.
in total war there are NO fighting systems rival each other! the game series consists of two separated parts: the tactical (driven by a real time combat system) and the strategically part (driven by the turn based system)... so where is your point?! in da2 bioware tries to please two audiences THE SAME TIME, which won't work. there is no paused gameplay needed, although you could pause the game.

Semper as I've said before I do agree with you, but that's the same thing they have tried to achieve with DA:O (and the marketing was mostly the same if I remember correctly).

Personally, I think that they should choose one direction and design the game accordingly to that choice.

[-Semper-]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

No they aren't.  Paused gameplay is just as needed as in DA:O, in that I didn't need to pause in that either at non-Nightmare difficulty levels.  DA:2's demos certainly aren't being shown on Nightmare.

All they added was a single push to do a basic attack button for consoles and changed the animations, everything else is the same.

they altered more than just the controls and the animations. instant spells, seamless fighting and walking and other stuff for sure.

[upsettingshorts]

-Semper- wrote...
they altered more than just the controls and the animations. instant spells, seamless fighting and walking and other stuff for sure.

Almost all the spells in DA:O were instant, stuff like Firestorm being the exception.  Seamless fighting is so much better than shuffling-past-the-target-they-were-supposed-to-engage crap that was in DA:O. 

"Other stuff for sure" - how compelling.  No other change I've heard about - that I can recall - has any effect whatsoever on the mechanics of gameplay.  Things like teleporting and charging are simply new abilities, not a wholesale redesign as you claim the collection of changes represent.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[-Semper-]

FedericoV wrote...

Personally, I think that they should choose one direction and design the game accordingly to that choice.

that's all i want to say: indifferent how often bioware states that da2 will have the same gameplay as in da:o, it simply won't be... or at least my assumption tells me so. time will tell

[Ziggeh]

-Semper- wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Personally, I think that they should choose one direction and design the game accordingly to that choice.

that's all i want to say: indifferent how often bioware states that da2 will have the same gameplay as in da:o, it simply won't be... or at least my assumption tells me so. time will tell

Well I suppose you would be in a position to know, where as they are in the dark and working on guess work alone.