221 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

MerinTB wrote...

Saibh wrote...
And, by the way, the devs have never misled us about it being an action RPG

I'm not mining for the various quotes, so my memory may be shoddy, but I distinictly remember seeing different devs post here the following:

- DA2 is NOT an action RPG
- what does action RPG even mean? the words are meaningless, calm down
- DA:O  WAS an action RPG, so of course DA2 is

It's been all over the board, their responses on the forums.

Different people have expressed what they thought was or was not an action RPG. But I do not remember anyone ever saying "DA2 is NOT an action RPG". You'd have to find that quote for me. I think David Gaider said he doesn't think of DA2 as a hack-and-slash. From the information I have, neither do I.

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Taritu wrote...
Y'know, DA:O outsold either ME game. Just sayin'. Maybe more "ME like" is a bad business decision?

Maybe they're not making the decision for business reasons, but creative ones!

...it'd be like a thousand EA haters cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

And maybe the next US Congress is actually looking to fix problems and not just increase their political power.

Speculation is fun and pointless.

[Herr Uhl]

Brockololly wrote...

My whole concern with the emphasis on the "amped up" combat is that I don't want to button mash at all. And yet we've yet to read any one preview that says how the tactical/pause and play side of things has been improved or expanded upon; just that the need to play tactically is marginalized by the faster action. Its like in ME2- sure you can pause and play, but given the speed of combat, its rendered somewhat pointless. 

It comes down to balance and encounter/level design- is the game designed to be played to emphasize mashing or does it ever require any tactics whic require pause and play?

They've all been playing on easy, which is supposedly made even easier than in Origins, due to a throng of complaints about easy being too hard. There has probably been no need or real chance to expand or try tactics due to the low difficulty, and that most have been playing it on console.

Has there been any previewer that has played past Lothering or the short Kirkwall bit?

[StingingVelvet]

While I trust Bioware it is very hard to get past the fact that every single preview everywhere treats DA2 like it's an action game now. Bioware is either misleading those preview writers or are misleading us on the forums, both information streams can't be correct.



I'm sure in the end it will end up being an action game with some minor tactical options you don't really need to use, similar to Mass Effect 2, and Bioware will insist this means it can be either kind of game, though it doesn't.

[Fortlowe]

StingingVelvet wrote...

While I trust Bioware it is very hard to get past the fact that every single preview everywhere treats DA2 like it's an action game now. Bioware is either misleading those preview writers or are misleading us on the forums, both information streams can't be correct.

I'm sure in the end it will end up being an action game with some minor tactical options you don't really need to use, similar to Mass Effect 2, and Bioware will insist this means it can be either kind of game, though it doesn't.

The combat is all the previewers are getting and only a very brief and shallow snippet of that, I'm sure. We all know that the majority of Dragon Age's charm is in the narrative. A ten minute preview isn't going to be near enough to judge anything but the vanilla combat experience.

[Apollo Starflare]

Are some folks giving previewers too much credit? Most of them probably know less about the game than we do, even after playing it. They get to play a small portion of it (mostly the Lothering section in fact) and perhaps get a chance to interview/chat to a Bioware employee who most likely will be tightlipped as they so often are. Just because they say that they didn't have to pause and play much in the demo they played doesn't mean the whole game is like that, I didn't have to pause and play Origins much early on - especially on lower difficulties.

There are some of us who played the demo and found we did still need to pause and play to get the most out of the game, surely our opinions should count too?

Brockololly wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...
It's nothing like Mass Effect. Even the companion costumes and voiced protagonist (the only similarities) work very differently in Dragon Age 2. So I don't think that'll realy factor in.

Sure its not a third person cover shooter set in space with aliens. But the point most previewers are getting at by consistently saying DA2 is getting the ME2 treatment is that its getting streamlined and adopting a very very similar presentation to ME. You can say the voiced PC is vastly different in DA2 to ME2, but the only difference I'm seeing is the emotion icon, which seems to me like a glorified paragon/renegade system, just giving you a sarcastic middle option. 

But thats just it, half the time I've seen people seriously suggesting DA2 will be like ME2 in some way - hence the much touted 'Dragon Effect' nickname. As for previewers comparing the two, as others have said that is only natural being that it is a Bioware game with some of the same features every Bioware game has, ME gets referred to in a lot of previews thesedas anyway.

That might be the only difference immediately visable (and it is still a difference regardless, I never used the word 'vastly' although 'very' is perhaps too strong a word as well) but don't forget the changes behind the scenes too: The dialogue that changes tone depending on how frequently you choose a certain option for instance. Plus you just can't compare having a voiced protagonist to ME as if it's the only game to have ever done it. It seems easy to take that one similarity and make it mean that the whole of DA2 will be ME-like somehow.

So far I don't even see how DA2 is getting significantly streamlined? It has an inventory, attributes and talents screens, the latter of which is still full of different talents and trees... Whereas there are definitely streamlined elements of ME2, I can't think of any examples from DA2 that couldn't be argued as being solely a design choice.

[crimzontearz]

Or....just a thought....since the writers are given an early-in-the-story demo where they cannot see the crunched numbers that now happen under the hood and are limited to an early build they assume the combat has been streamlined much more than it actually is.....just saying

[Meltemph]

They won't be advertising to the people they know will end up buying the game anyway. They are obviously going to market to a different crowd. So most of the content they decide to show will be to attract the people who did not go after DAO, and all the "buzzwords" will be on point to go after newer customers.



As for it being more like the old school cRPGs... Gameplay wise, I really didn't feel to many similarities, so not sure why people feel it is as such. I mean, it was not even a full on point and click, really. I, 90% of the time, used WASD to move around.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

KhorinShizucor wrote...

Gah I wish I could remember which thread I read this but Mike Laidlaw or another dev did say you COULD play DAII like a hack and slash but up to a certain point. Eventually the battles will be harder and you'll have to start "thinking like a general", ie issuing orders to companions, surveying the battlefield, and acting accordingly. I'm aware that some players can just button mash (on PC or console) as someone has posted in this forum they did in DAO.

I don't think so. There is a clear difference between games like World of Warcraft and Ninja Gaiden. The only reason there is no real consensus on THIS FORUM is because harldy anyone has actually gotten to play the game.

[Meltemph]

Anyone who thinks this game will play anything like Ninja Gaiden... Must not have played Ninja Gaiden, cause I don't see any rational in that statement. I play those types of games, one of my favorite genre's and to me DA2 looks absolutely nothing like that and definitely does not look like it plays like that.

[Brockololly]

Meltemph wrote...
They won't be advertising to the people they know will end up buying the game anyway. They are obviously going to market to a different crowd. So most of the content they decide to show will be to attract the people who did not go after DAO, and all the "buzzwords" will be on point to go after newer customers.

Thats the thing though- I feel like most of the marketing thus far is skewed towards people that maybe didn't play Origins or didn't even finish Origins. Yet those people likely don't care about a Dragon Age sequel- the people that have been focusing on DA2 since July are likely those that already like Origins. So any talk of streamlining and making more accessable is sort of a "Who cares?" type scenario.  You're not attracting new customers to a game when its 3.5 months out from release with a tiny drip feed of information and you've got Christmas in between and a glut of games coming out early next year.

The marketing early on should be designed to excite the people actually paying attention, which are likely those that enjoyed Origins- instead the marketing seems to be doing a great job of being divisive and painting DA2 as something which I'm not sure I'd actually enjoy, which is staggering considering I loved Origins. They can talk about all this stuff all they want, but you've got to show the actual gameplay to back up your talk.

[Ziggeh]

Meltemph wrote...

Anyone who thinks this game will play anything like Ninja Gaiden... Must not have played Ninja Gaiden, cause I don't see any rational in that statement. I play those types of games, one of my favorite genre's and to me DA2 looks absolutely nothing like that and definitely does not look like it plays like that.

Heh, well, the thing is, I'm sure they don't mean it's much like Ninja Gaiden, just that it's an easy comparison to give in order to get the point across. Exactly the same kind of comparison they're taking as literal from the reviewers.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Meltemph wrote...

Anyone who thinks this game will play anything like Ninja Gaiden... Must not have played Ninja Gaiden, cause I don't see any rational in that statement. I play those types of games, one of my favorite genre's and to me DA2 looks absolutely nothing like that and definitely does not look like it plays like that.

I dunno about that. From what I've seen, there does seem to be some emphasis on combos in the actual fighting and when you push a button, something happens. I'm not saying it's exactly like Ninja Gaiden, but it certainly isn't a polar opposite based on what I'm seeing. I'm gonna have to play the game before I actually make a decision, but DA2 having become a hack and slash with RPG elements (like ME is a FPS with RPG elements) isn't too much of a stretch.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Nefario]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Anyone who thinks this game will play anything like Ninja Gaiden... Must not have played Ninja Gaiden, cause I don't see any rational in that statement. I play those types of games, one of my favorite genre's and to me DA2 looks absolutely nothing like that and definitely does not look like it plays like that.

I dunno about that. From what I've seen, there does seem to be some emphasis on combos in the actual fighting and when you push a button, something happens. I'm not saying it's exactly like Ninja Gaiden, but it certainly isn't a polar opposite based on what I'm seeing. I'm gonna have to play the game before I actually make a decision, but DA2 having become a hack and slash with RPG elements (like ME is a FPS with RPG elements) isn't too much of a stretch.

Emphasis on combos? What have you seen?
From what I've seen console gameplay looks to be nigh-identical, though they've added a move-to-point command. Which is actually adding tactical depth (to that version).

[Meltemph]

Thats the thing though- I feel like most of the marketing thus far is skewed towards people that maybe didn't play Origins or didn't even finish Origins. Yet those people likely don't care about a Dragon Age sequel-

Based on what? IF the game looks good to them and they state you do not have to play the 1st to get teh 2nd, They would be considered a pretty bad business if they did not try and expand their user base.

You're not attracting new customers to a game when its 3.5 months out from release with a tiny drip feed of information and you've got Christmas in between and a glut of games coming out early next year.

You are stereotyping everyone who either did not like DAO or were not interested. There are plenty of hardcore gamers that might be more willing to give DA2 a try/retry.

The marketing early on should be designed to excite the people actually paying attention, which are likely those that enjoyed Origins- instead the marketing seems to be doing a great job of being divisive and painting DA2 as something which I'm not sure I'd actually enjoy, which is staggering considering I loved Origins. They can talk about all this stuff all they want, but you've got to show the actual gameplay to back up your talk.

Why would they spend money on the people who will buy DA2 anyway, for that most part?

Modifié par Meltemph, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Meltemph]

I dunno about that. From what I've seen, there does seem to be some emphasis on combos in the actual fighting and when you push a button, something happens. I'm not saying it's exactly like Ninja Gaiden, but it certainly isn't a polar opposite based on what I'm seeing. I'm gonna have to play the game before I actually make a decision, but DA2 having become a hack and slash with RPG elements (like ME is a FPS with RPG elements) isn't too much of a stretch.

Have you played Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry and ect? No i disagree completely. This game looks nothing like those types of games and definitely does not look like those games gameplay wise, at all.

Modifié par Meltemph, 13 novembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Meltemph wrote...

I dunno about that. From what I've seen, there does seem to be some emphasis on combos in the actual fighting and when you push a button, something happens. I'm not saying it's exactly like Ninja Gaiden, but it certainly isn't a polar opposite based on what I'm seeing. I'm gonna have to play the game before I actually make a decision, but DA2 having become a hack and slash with RPG elements (like ME is a FPS with RPG elements) isn't too much of a stretch.

Have you played Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry and ect? No i disagree completely. This game looks nothing like those types of games and definitely does not look like those games, gameplay wise at all.

Yes. As a matter of fact, I've played so much Ninja Gaiden that I even managed to do a perfect playthrough where I never got hit even once on the highest difficulty. 

I'm referring to the basic elements of the game as well as other hack n' slashes. Your character can instantly attack and dodge from what we've seen. All we're missing is the jumping (which is automatic for some attacks) and platforming in terms of the basic elements. I'm not sure what else I can do to convey the idea I'm speaking of.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 13 novembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

Piecake wrote...


They obviously have their own time table about how they want to market the game.  Plus, it makes very little sense to target your marketing campaign at your hardcore fan base.  Your hardcore fan base, even if they dont like some of the stuff being shown, will continue to follow the game closely.  Meaning it really doesnt matter if they show the pc demo tommorrow or next week or next month, we will still be here.

...or they make DA2 the C&C4 of the RPGs. Aiming the game at casual players instead of core players truly worked h...oh.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[AlanC9]

StingingVelvet wrote...

While I trust Bioware it is very hard to get past the fact that every single preview everywhere treats DA2 like it's an action game now. Bioware is either misleading those preview writers or are misleading us on the forums, both information streams can't be correct.

I'm sure in the end it will end up being an action game with some minor tactical options you don't really need to use, similar to Mass Effect 2, and Bioware will insist this means it can be either kind of game, though it doesn't.

But what is Bio saying on these forums that's incompatible with DA2 being an "action game," whatever the hell that's supposed to mean?

[AlanC9]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
I'm referring to the basic elements of the game as well as other hack n' slashes. Your character can instantly attack and dodge from what we've seen. All we're missing is the jumping (which is automatic for some attacks) and platforming in terms of the basic elements. I'm not sure what else I can do to convey the idea I'm speaking of.

Maybe it's just a bad idea?

I'm not quite clear what's wrong with instantly attacking, or dodging.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
I'm referring to the basic elements of the game as well as other hack n' slashes. Your character can instantly attack and dodge from what we've seen. All we're missing is the jumping (which is automatic for some attacks) and platforming in terms of the basic elements. I'm not sure what else I can do to convey the idea I'm speaking of.

Maybe it's just a bad idea?

I'm not quite clear what's wrong with instantly attacking, or dodging.

Neither am I. There's nothing wrong with instantly attacking or dodging as far as I can tell.

[Archereon]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Anyone who thinks this game will play anything like Ninja Gaiden... Must not have played Ninja Gaiden, cause I don't see any rational in that statement. I play those types of games, one of my favorite genre's and to me DA2 looks absolutely nothing like that and definitely does not look like it plays like that.

I dunno about that. From what I've seen, there does seem to be some emphasis on combos in the actual fighting and when you push a button, something happens. I'm not saying it's exactly like Ninja Gaiden, but it certainly isn't a polar opposite based on what I'm seeing. I'm gonna have to play the game before I actually make a decision, but DA2 having become a hack and slash with RPG elements (like ME is a FPS with RPG elements) isn't too much of a stretch.

I'm going to have to note here that Hack and Slash and RPG aren't mutually exclusive.  See diablo for example...There's a lot of loot and statistics to be had and, on harder difficulties, basic number crunching (or going online to look for builds) and a lack of mindless button mashing.  (with the exception of the DRINK POTION macro)

[AlanC9]

So even if it is like Ninja Gaiden that's not a bad thing? OK. Didn't Mike Laidlaw say that he didn't think the distinction between action game and RPG was worth making? Something to that effect, anyway.

[crimzontearz]

uh......kenshin you do realize a LOT of people complained about the sluggishness of the original game right?



the fact you can attavk and dodge faster is merely a response to those complaints...how does it detract from the overall RPG experience?

[Luigitornado]

Brockololly wrote...

Meltemph wrote...
They won't be advertising to the people they know will end up buying the game anyway. They are obviously going to market to a different crowd. So most of the content they decide to show will be to attract the people who did not go after DAO, and all the "buzzwords" will be on point to go after newer customers.

Thats the thing though- I feel like most of the marketing thus far is skewed towards people that maybe didn't play Origins or didn't even finish Origins. Yet those people likely don't care about a Dragon Age sequel- the people that have been focusing on DA2 since July are likely those that already like Origins. So any talk of streamlining and making more accessable is sort of a "Who cares?" type scenario.  You're not attracting new customers to a game when its 3.5 months out from release with a tiny drip feed of information and you've got Christmas in between and a glut of games coming out early next year.

The marketing early on should be designed to excite the people actually paying attention, which are likely those that enjoyed Origins- instead the marketing seems to be doing a great job of being divisive and painting DA2 as something which I'm not sure I'd actually enjoy, which is staggering considering I loved Origins. They can talk about all this stuff all they want, but you've got to show the actual gameplay to back up your talk.

You would be surprised how many people play sequels without finishing or playing the original game. I don't think that too many people will care about the changes if they were a fan of the first, they will only care if the game is broken, and I doubt Bioware would release a game that is unplayable.

Any complaints against DA:2 being out of touch with what the first established seems nothing more than the hardcore fans (which are few for any game, when considering the market's potential) being too nit-picky.

You want DA:O, then go play it. If you don't want to play DA:2 then don't buy it...but I hardly doubt anyone who considers themselves a fan (and posts on these boards regularly) will skip out on buying the game because they have some quips about how the game is turning out.