221 réponses à ce sujet

[Archereon]

crimzontearz wrote...

uh......kenshin you do realize a LOT of people complained about the sluggishness of the original game right?

the fact you can attavk and dodge faster is merely a response to those complaints...how does it detract from the overall RPG experience?

It detracts from the tactical experience if you have to concentrate so much on pulling off attack and dodging combos (what with the new click/press to attack system, the combo system, and the active dodging).  And I still mantain that the differences between the PC and console are likely exagerated.  

[Saibh]

Archereon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

uh......kenshin you do realize a LOT of people complained about the sluggishness of the original game right?

the fact you can attavk and dodge faster is merely a response to those complaints...how does it detract from the overall RPG experience?

It detracts from the tactical experience if you have to concentrate so much on pulling off attack and dodging combos (what with the new click/press to attack system, the combo system, and the active dodging).  And I still mantain that the differences between the PC and console are likely exagerated.  

I don't recall anything about combos or active dodging? Where did you learn this?

[Saibh]

filaminstrel wrote...

They did mention if you tilt the control stick or something like that you can do a barrel roll maneuver.

Really? I never caught that.

Well, it's an improvement over getting knocked on your ass from all the way across the room from an ogre charge. I think it's especially going to be useful for rogues.

[Archereon]

Saibh wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

They did mention if you tilt the control stick or something like that you can do a barrel roll maneuver.

Really? I never caught that.

Well, it's an improvement over getting knocked on your ass from all the way across the room from an ogre charge. I think it's especially going to be useful for rogues.

The problem there is that it's going to force you to micromanage one character, and one character only, unlike in DA:O where you controlled the whole party...Which will now be useless, barring absurd health bonuses to NPCs, thanks to either

A. Godawful AI regarding the active dodges

or

B. No AI at all in active dodges

[crimzontearz]

Archereon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

uh......kenshin you do realize a LOT of people complained about the sluggishness of the original game right?

the fact you can attavk and dodge faster is merely a response to those complaints...how does it detract from the overall RPG experience?

It detracts from the tactical experience if you have to concentrate so much on pulling off attack and dodging combos (what with the new click/press to attack system, the combo system, and the active dodging).  And I still mantain that the differences between the PC and console are likely exagerated.  

so far we learned that only the rogue can active dodge, we DO NOT know if mages and warriors  can do it. Active dodge sounds quite pertinent with a rogue but I am digressing. Active dodging does not detract from the tactical experience  anymore than trying to position yourself for backstabs and flanking indeed it actually enhances its depth because if ONLY ony class or even only one character (assumiong only hawke can do it) can active dodge you might be able to use that class/character much more effectively as a distraction against a particularly  high bursting DPS enemy  while the others  mop up the others...just an example...

same for  other class specific abilities like the warrior bing able to hit multiple targets witha  2 handed weapon


those you call "combos" are simply a string of three attacks.....it's not like DA2 turned in DMC and there is a good chance they will be automatically perfmored if you set your preference to auto attack

[upsettingshorts]

I'm pretty sure that was in Jade Empire, was it not? The roll?

[MerinTB]

AlanC9 wrote...
So even if it is like Ninja Gaiden that's not a bad thing? OK. Didn't Mike Laidlaw say that he didn't think the distinction between action game and RPG was worth making? Something to that effect, anyway.

And he has no ulterior motive in saying that?

And because anyone (regardless of who they are) says there no distinction means that there must be none?

I remember in 1999-2000 all the Ralph Nader supporters who swore that there was no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties, that the names were meaningless and that they both did exactly the same thing.  Didn't make them right.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Mike Laidlaw if he thinks the distinction isn't worth making.

We need to communicate with each other.  To communicate we need to use words to describe what we want to get across.  To communicate well we have to agree that the words we use have meaning, and if there is confusion on what one person means when they say a word, the other person can ask for clarification - and then when the first person says "by this word I mean this description of said word" you should, at least when talking to that person, understand that they mean "that description" when they use "that word."

whether that description is what you thought they meant by that word
whether you care about what that word/description is talking about

If person A says "I don't want my Star Trek movies to be like Star Wars - ridiculous cartoony characters, laser swords, super-powers," and person B says "But Star Trek is sci-fi like Star Wars, they are the same thing... and besides, I like all outer-space sci-fi so if they become more alike I don't care"...
B doesn't get to tell A that, since B doesn't care about any such distinctions, talking about the distinctions is pointless.

It matters not to B, but it does to A.  Neither are "wrong" for their opinions - until B tells A to stop talking about it solely because B doesn't care.

Modifié par MerinTB, 13 novembre 2010 - 09:51 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Saibh wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

They did mention if you tilt the control stick or something like that you can do a barrel roll maneuver.

Really? I never caught that.

Well, it's an improvement over getting knocked on your ass from all the way across the room from an ogre charge. I think it's especially going to be useful for rogues.

Where did they mention this? There was no way of dodging like that in the demo I played, I got hit on my ass by the ogre a couple of times. They have made a point of saying on here there are no combo's/blocking moves precisely to maintain the original Dragon Age feel I'd thought.

In fact when I first read Filaminstrel's reply I half thought he was making a joking exaggeration (a barrel roll being something I associate more with flight sims and flight combat games. )

Edit: Huh, I guess I just missed it. The 'combo's are definitely just the combat animation chain though, there was no 'press A twice, do a triple circle on the control stick and press Y' anywhere to be seen, plus the auto attack on PC/radial menu kinda underlines that. Considering attacks can be dodged (in other words, they don't hit you even if you run away ala Origins) then it does make some sense to have the dodge in there as a means to further take advantage of this.

Modifié par Apollo Starflare, 13 novembre 2010 - 09:56 .

[crimzontearz]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Saibh wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

They did mention if you tilt the control stick or something like that you can do a barrel roll maneuver.

Really? I never caught that.

Well, it's an improvement over getting knocked on your ass from all the way across the room from an ogre charge. I think it's especially going to be useful for rogues.

Where did they mention this? There was no way of dodging like that in the demo I played, I got hit on my ass by the ogre a couple of times. They have made a point of saying on here there are no combo's/blocking moves precisely to maintain the original Dragon Age feel I'd thought.

In fact when I first read Filaminstrel's reply I half thought he was making a joking exaggeration (a barrel roll being something I associate more with flight sims and flight combat games. )

what class did you play? 

[upsettingshorts]

Well, the way "action RPG" is used on the forum - and in marketing - seems to be entirely about perception more than any objective deviation from a set of features. I think Mike Laidlaw might have use for my distinction: Action RPGs incorporate twitch mechanics, RPGs do not.

By that definition, Mass Effect 1-2 are action RPGs, and DA:O/2 are not. It might not make for sexy actiony marketing, but at least it draws the line somewhere.

If "action RPG" only refers to presentation than it loses any worth it had as a descriptive phrase and enters the realm of marketing jargon. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 novembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[Apollo Starflare]

@Crimzontearz: Warrior and rogue. But as I said above it's possible I somehow missed it, or maybe it wasn't incorporated into the old demo (they seemed to play the Kirkwall demo). It's funny because I was trying to use the backflip to dodge the Ogre at times, I remember thinking having something like a dodge would be handy for moments like that - especially playing the rogue.

[Brockololly]

filaminstrel wrote...

Saibh wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

They did mention if you tilt the control stick or something like that you can do a barrel roll maneuver.

Really? I never caught that.

Well, it's an improvement over getting knocked on your ass from all the way across the room from an ogre charge. I think it's especially going to be useful for rogues.

Yeah, I thought it'd be impossible to find but actually it's right here in this recent article:

*snip*

I'm not sure how that'll work on a keyboard/mouse setup. Q/E?

Yeah, bashing keys on the keyboard isn't exactly intuitive for the PC setup.  I just hope its not like Arkham Asylum on the PC where when a lunatic jumps on Batman you have to tap the space bar. Thats just annoying. 

[slimgrin]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, bashing keys on the keyboard isn't exactly intuitive for the PC setup.  I just hope its not like Arkham Asylum on the PC where when a lunatic jumps on Batman you have to tap the space bar. Thats just annoying. 

Took me a long time to get used to that. A controller is arguably better for twitch gaming imo.

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...
A controller is arguably better for twitch gaming imo.

/smacks slimgrin on the nose with a wrapped up newspaper

No!  Bad!   Well, at least for shooters anyway.  For everything else you're probably right - the main reason I even have a 360 is for sports games.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 novembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, the way "action RPG" is used on the forum - and in marketing - seems to be entirely about perception more than any objective deviation from a set of features. I think Mike Laidlaw might have use for my distinction: Action RPGs incorporate twitch mechanics, RPGs do not.

By that definition, Mass Effect 1-2 are action RPGs, and DA:O/2 are not. It might not make for sexy actiony marketing, but at least it draws the line somewhere.

If "action RPG" only refers to presentation than it loses any worth it had as a descriptive phrase and enters the realm of marketing jargon. 

You and I have been saying this over and over. I honestly don't think there is a more accurate definition of action rpg.

They have ignored us. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 13 novembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[crimzontearz]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

@Crimzontearz: Warrior and rogue. But as I said above it's possible I somehow missed it, or maybe it wasn't incorporated into the old demo (they seemed to play the Kirkwall demo). It's funny because I was trying to use the backflip to dodge the Ogre at times, I remember thinking having something like a dodge would be handy for moments like that - especially playing the rogue.

the only place where  dodging is mentioned is Rogue Previews

[AlanC9]

MerinTB wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So even if it is like Ninja Gaiden that's not a bad thing? OK. Didn't Mike Laidlaw say that he didn't think the distinction between action game and RPG was worth making? Something to that effect, anyway.

And he has no ulterior motive in saying that?

And because anyone (regardless of who they are) says there no distinction means that there must be none?

I remember in 1999-2000 all the Ralph Nader supporters who swore that there was no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties, that the names were meaningless and that they both did exactly the same thing.  Didn't make them right.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Mike Laidlaw if he thinks the distinction isn't worth making.

Well, you're free to disagree with Laidlaw, obviously.

But to borrow your analogy, Nader certainly believed in what he was saying, wrong or not. If Laidlaw didn't believe in what he was doing, why would he be doing it? If it's because his evil corporate overlords made him, then the evil corporate overlords should have, and would have, picked someone different for the job -- someone who actually believed in the goal. Unless they're stupid evil corporate overlords, which I guess is conceivable.

As for the rest of your post, Gaider's the only one of the Bio devs who hands around a thread long enough to bother learning what a particular poster means when he says something like "action RPG." Except for Mary Kirby, but she doesn't seem to be interested in this sort of topic.

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...
You and I have been saying this over and over.  I honestly don't think there is a more accurate definition of action rpg.

They have ignored us. 

Indeed.  I like the way I put the argument there, so I'll add it to my list of self-referential bookmarks and just paste that whenever it comes up.  I'm lazy in that way.

[Archereon]

AlanC9 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So even if it is like Ninja Gaiden that's not a bad thing? OK. Didn't Mike Laidlaw say that he didn't think the distinction between action game and RPG was worth making? Something to that effect, anyway.

And he has no ulterior motive in saying that?

And because anyone (regardless of who they are) says there no distinction means that there must be none?

I remember in 1999-2000 all the Ralph Nader supporters who swore that there was no difference between the Democratic and Republican parties, that the names were meaningless and that they both did exactly the same thing.  Didn't make them right.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Mike Laidlaw if he thinks the distinction isn't worth making.

Well, you're free to disagree with Laidlaw, obviously.

But to borrow your analogy, Nader certainly believed in what he was saying, wrong or not. If Laidlaw didn't believe in what he was doing, why would he be doing it? If it's because his evil corporate overlords made him, then the evil corporate overlords should have, and would have, picked someone different for the job -- someone who actually believed in the goal. Unless they're stupid evil corporate overlords, which I guess is conceivable.

As for the rest of your post, Gaider's the only one of the Bio devs who hands around a thread long enough to bother learning what a particular poster means when he says something like "action RPG." Except for Mary Kirby, but she doesn't seem to be interested in this sort of topic.

While I'm not going to start this argument, even if Laidlaw was wholley against all the changes he wouldn't speak of.  It's not worth loosing your job over a game.

[upsettingshorts]

AlanC9 wrote...
As for the rest of your post, Gaider's the only one of the Bio devs who hands around a thread long enough to bother learning what a particular poster means when he says something like "action RPG."

John Epler is probably lurking right now.

Archereon wrote...
While I'm not going to start this argument, even if Laidlaw was wholley against all the changes he wouldn't speak of.  It's not worth loosing your job over a game.

He's the lead designer.  I don't know Bioware's chain of command, but I'm pretty sure if it isn't his call, he has a great deal of say in whoever's call it is.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 novembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Archereon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
As for the rest of your post, Gaider's the only one of the Bio devs who hands around a thread long enough to bother learning what a particular poster means when he says something like "action RPG."

John Epler is probably lurking right now.

Archereon wrote...
While I'm not going to start this argument, even if Laidlaw was wholley against all the changes he wouldn't speak of.  It's not worth loosing your job over a game.

He's the lead designer.  I don't know Bioware's chain of command, but I'm pretty sure if it isn't his call, he has a great deal of say in whoever's call it is.

If an exec decides a change needs to happen, Laidlaw has to either comply with him or explain why its not feasible.  Ultimately the people REALLY in charge (board of directors and other execs) can meddle however much they want with the "lead designer's" vision.

[upsettingshorts]

Archereon wrote...
If an exec decides a change needs to happen, Laidlaw has to either comply with him or explain why its not feasible.  Ultimately the people REALLY in charge (board of directors and other execs) can meddle however much they want with the "lead designer's" vision.

I'm sure they could, the question of whether or not the business end dictates creative decisions on that level is not something I'm simply going to assume, though. 

[Saibh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Archereon wrote...
If an exec decides a change needs to happen, Laidlaw has to either comply with him or explain why its not feasible.  Ultimately the people REALLY in charge (board of directors and other execs) can meddle however much they want with the "lead designer's" vision.

I'm sure they could, the question of whether or not the business end dictates creative decisions on that level is not something I'm simply going to assume, though. 

Also, "the execs made me do it" always rings more like an excuse than a reason, to me. Last game did bad? Blame it on the (probably former) executives and clear the air! Like Obsidian. I'm getting sick of their "We didn't have enough time!" excuse.