56 réponses à ce sujet

[oyzar]

I am not going to install tactics or scs but I was wondering if there were some other things you could do with your party / character to make the game more fun? Not minmaxing the stats (just modify the starting roll to whatever you minimum need), and not picking the most powerful group might help quite a bit? Not doing twisted rune/kangaxx(though the regeneration of the ring is really nice, but you can proxy that with rings of regeneration) etc... 

[Carinna]

Define "fun." You sound as if you tried to choose the most "powerful" party possible and made your charname's stats all 18 previously; however the first thing you said was you "weren't going to install" a game-difficulty enhancing mod. In my mind, these two things are polar opposites. Is that what you mean by "fun" - something completely opposite what you did before? And if you normally like being all-powerful, wouldn't it feel more like a chore than fun to play a game made deliberately difficult?



If you just want variety, there are many ways you can play; all you have to do is read through the board for suggestions - yes, a lot of people here like the difficulty-enhancements, but there is other stuff, too, like the no-reload challenge (called iron man in other places than this), where when the main character dies, the game is over, just like real life. Or you could try a solo game. Or just create a really oddball character and then roleplay him and stick to the roleplay (meaning do not go off on something he wouldn't do just because you, the player, insist on perfection). I've even played a game where I wasn't allowed to kill anything unless it was required to advance in the main line quest (and none of the party was allowed to kill anything, either).

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I'm currently actually thinking of starting a No-Screen challenge that I bragged about so long ago that I could do it.

Other ideas are the Random Challenge (meaning you roll dice to determine your race, class, proficiencies and even NPCs, so you may end up with a fighter specializing in 2 handed swords but unable to wield those because of low strength and no thief in your party), the themed party (all druids, or all mages for example though one of them is certainly more powerful than the other), the minimal killing challenge (it's possible to play through BG1 without killing anybody, but in BG2 you will be forced to dirty your hands at a few points), minimal XP challenge, the Bhaalspawn challenge (another invention of mine, it takes some work but the idea is that everybody else starts at a higher level and gains new levels at a much slower rate than your PC, of course this only makes sense with a full party)...

[Matuse]

No-Screen challenge? What, you don't turn on your monitor?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Nah, I'd just use the Ctrl 2 cheat.

Edit: Scratch that. The Ctrl 2 cheat doesn't work for more than a few seconds. There'd be no challenge in that. If somebody's able to type up some sort of mod for me that makes the effects permanent I'll do the challenge, as I think that without the little mouse symbols (attack, open etc)  that I would lose if I simply glued some paper over the monitor, my patience would run out before I'd reach the nymphs.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 15 novembre 2010 - 01:20 .

[Fruktig]

Carinna wrote...
 I've even played a game where I wasn't allowed to kill anything unless it was required to advance in the main line quest (and none of the party was allowed to kill anything, either).

I've always been interested in those playing pacifist in BG1.  From what I understand, punching someone unconscious counted as death to advance the plot, even against Sarevok.  How often could you skirt killing in the BG2?

Modifié par Fruktig, 15 novembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[Morbidest]

Unless you are playing Evil and want your party reputation to be very low - or are sloppy about flinging fireballs around in urban battles and kill civilians - the issue doesn't really come up in BG2 except for Noober in Trademeet; you don't have the equivalent of the Flaming Fist to deal with. Even if you taunt the cowled wizards by deliberately not getting a magic license and spell cast anyway, bumping off their enforcers doesn't make anyone else mad at you. Athkatla is more openly corrupt than Baldur's Gate, and people are better at ignoring a little bloodshed - also your enemies are tougher - it's hard to just knockout a vampire or cowled wizard before they cream you. A pacifist in BG2 spends more time running than slugging.

[Cowboy_christo]

play 6 wild mage and never use the wild magic protection spell.



Now have fun lol



Just a single wild mage adds so much lulz to the game.

[Czacki]

I like cowboy_christo's suggestion Also you can spice it a bit. Play an evil wildmage group that kills most of the things on sight (after buying necessary gear and completing quests, if you wish). No reloads after a screwed up roll

[Son of Imoen]

I like the all-random suggestion Humanoid Taifun. But how does it work in practice? I could imagine I use the dice from my PnP days (d4 up to d20) for each choice on the character creation screen (and sticking with the very first roll of the dice for attributes), but how do you go about randomizing the party setup? By what method do you let the dice decide which NPC's to pick?

Also: is it possible to roll a character without giving it a portrait, instead start looking for a portrait and adding it via customization, after the character creation is finished? (I still want to use my own imagination in picking a portrait from all that can be found for a fighter with 6 CON and 6 STR, or a priest with 7 WIS ).

Modifié par Son of Imoen, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[Son of Imoen]

Also too: has anyone put a post or walkthrough on internet with a how-to-be-a-pacifist? Seems fun to try, playing BG as if it's real life and not wanting to kill, but I haven't got a clue on how to do it? How do you deal with hostile monsters and enemies, if you're not allowed to kill? Are you allowed to use charm, domination etc. to set them up against each other? *off-BG2-forum* How do you avoid getting killed if you're not allowed to fight your through in the mines for example and how do you advance the plot if you're not allowed to kill Mulahey and Davaeron for instance?

[Carinna]

Son of Imoen wrote...

I like the all-random suggestion Humanoid Taifun. But how does it work in practice? I could imagine I use the dice from my PnP days (d4 up to d20) for each choice on the character creation screen (and sticking with the very first roll of the dice for attributes), but how do you go about randomizing the party setup? By what method do you let the dice decide which NPC's to pick?

I believe you assign each NPC a number and the roll the dice appropriately for the total number of NPCs.  If you roll a number that's already been chosen, you just roll again.

Also: is it possible to roll a character without giving it a portrait, instead start looking for a portrait and adding it via customization, after the character creation is finished? (I still want to use my own imagination in picking a portrait from all that can be found for a fighter with 6 CON and 6 STR, or a priest with 7 WIS ).

I wouldn't see why not. 

[Carinna]

Son of Imoen wrote...

Also too: has anyone put a post or walkthrough on internet with a how-to-be-a-pacifist? Seems fun to try, playing BG as if it's real life and not wanting to kill, but I haven't got a clue on how to do it? How do you deal with hostile monsters and enemies, if you're not allowed to kill? Are you allowed to use charm, domination etc. to set them up against each other? *off-BG2-forum* How do you avoid getting killed if you're not allowed to fight your through in the mines for example and how do you advance the plot if you're not allowed to kill Mulahey and Davaeron for instance?

I actually did it (just through BG2 SOA), though I've never posted a walk-thru.  Maybe I will do it again.  However, it's not possible to complete the game as it is without doing some killing as you will get hung up prior to Chapter 3 and never progress (you have to kill the defectors if siding with the thieves, and of course if you side with Bodhi, you must commit a murder).  I kicked around the idea of a mod that would allow the main-line quests to advance without needing to kill anything, but it died due to lack of interest.  I still have a lot of the dialogue for it written, but I'm not a coder, and no coders were sufficiently interested to volunteer.

The way I played, if you were a true pacifist you should not even try to use charm or domination to set up others to kill, although you could use those spells to get past a creature that was blocking your way.  To me, using the spells like that was like paying someone to kill someone for you - it doesn't make you innocent of the crime.  That said, if you use charm and then they start attacking others on their own (without your direction), then you have no control over it.  You do almost need to play a mage-type (invisibility) or a thief-type (hide in shadows).

Modifié par Carinna, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Son of Imoen wrote...
I like the all-random suggestion Humanoid Taifun. But how does it work in practice? I could imagine I use the dice from my PnP days (d4 up to d20) for each choice on the character creation screen (and sticking with the very first roll of the dice for attributes), but how do you go about randomizing the party setup? By what method do you let the dice decide which NPC's to pick?

When that challence had it's live thread, everybody made up a method for themselves. I personally rolled up the character by hand before entering it into the Character Generation screen, so I already knew my class and race when choosing my portrait. (of course, you could also go into personalization after the game's already started)

Son of Imoen wrote...
Also too: has anyone put a post or walkthrough on internet with a how-to-be-a-pacifist?

Somewhere on the old boards, yes. frabjous was the one doing it for BG2, don't remember the guy who played through BG1 that way (though frabjous may have done that too).

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:56 .

[Carinna]

Fruktig wrote...

Carinna wrote...
 I've even played a game where I wasn't allowed to kill anything unless it was required to advance in the main line quest (and none of the party was allowed to kill anything, either).

I've always been interested in those playing pacifist in BG1.  From what I understand, punching someone unconscious counted as death to advance the plot, even against Sarevok.  How often could you skirt killing in the BG2?

I played through the whole thing and only killed the two defectors, some kobolds, mushrooms and trolls beneath spellhold, the demon in the underdark, and irenicus (maybe something else, but I think that was it).  If a sideline quest required killing, I either didn't do it at all, or only did it up to the point where I was required to kill something (I conveniently didn't count undead like Bodhi or her vampires as "killed" since I figured they were already dead).   As someone else said, it requires a lot of running and either being invisible or hiding in shadows.  And you have to accept that there will be some less than desirable outcomes - you cannot save Rylock, for instance, and you are limited in your NPCs because some will get mad and leave if you don't go do their killing required quest.  You can't have Edwin, either, because you can't kill the cowled wizard for him.

This all applies to SoA only.  For ToB you are virtually railroaded into "Kill the boss.  Take treasure.  Repeat."  Not sure how viable a pacifist game would work there.

Modifié par Carinna, 30 novembre 2010 - 12:34 .

[lroumen]

What about using Flesh-to-Stone to 'kill'? Does that count and allow you to progress?

[Son of Imoen]

I rolled up 6 characters randomly, but not 1 of them appealed enough to me to start an adventure with. I expected some weird results, but mostly I got mundane characters with average stats (the fault might be the minimum stats cheat from BG2Tweaks is used in all of my installs), Most funny results: a halfling barbarian with a carrying capacity of 50 (so she'll end up getting immobilized by metal armour very quickly), and a halfling duelist wielding a halberd (Sword and Fist kit). But I ended up just continuing with one of the normal ongoing campaigns I have. I have 10 separate campaigns going on, all of them 'normal campaigns'. I'll stick to that for a while, I think. Still doesn't bore me. Still gotta find out who 'Bodhi', 'the defectors' and what 'the Underdark' is. I've spent years playing BG1, and just started exploring BG2 (though I did already find out what pleasant scenery the Umar Hills give ). 

[Carinna]

lroumen wrote...

What about using Flesh-to-Stone to 'kill'? Does that count and allow you to progress?

What I posted were the rules I made up for myself for a minimal kill game (and my reasons for using them), not a set of engraved in stone must never be changed rules.  Generally speaking, for any challenge game, so long as you state your own rules at the beginning of the challenge, you are free to interpret the challenge yourself.  In otherwords, if you think that using flesh-to-stone to get by something is acceptable as not killing, then use it.  But don't expect everyone else playing the challenge to stick to whatever you yourself have chosen.

Of course, you do have to stay within the spirit of the challenge.  You can't state up front "entering the minimal kill challenge with the personal rule that I will kill everything I see." 

[lroumen]

Well, that is understandable.

However, my indication was it would perhaps be possible to do a no-kill game by using Flesh-To-Stone (or Imprisonment now I think of it) in cases where a simple knock-out wouldn't do. Since they can be turned back to Flesh (or freed), it's in reality not really a kill. As such, you might finish the game without technically killing anyone. Certainly it makes no sense to kill everything with flesh-to-stone

[moilami]

lroumen wrote...

Well, that is understandable.
However, my indication was it would perhaps be possible to do a no-kill game by using Flesh-To-Stone (or Imprisonment now I think of it) in cases where a simple knock-out wouldn't do. Since they can be turned back to Flesh (or freed), it's in reality not really a kill. As such, you might finish the game without technically killing anyone. Certainly it makes no sense to kill everything with flesh-to-stone

Turning to stone someone does not count as killing? xD Fantastical new logic! Burning someone doesn't count as killing either! Fireballs and combust are okay. Similarly you can kill with swords and raise afterwards. Killing doesn't count as killing! Awesome.. Even G. Orwel would be speechless!

[Urdjur]

moilami wrote...
Turning to stone someone does not count as killing? xD Fantastical new logic! Burning someone doesn't count as killing either! Fireballs and combust are okay. Similarly you can kill with swords and raise afterwards. Killing doesn't count as killing! Awesome.. Even G. Orwel would be speechless!

Ah, but you can't raise NPCs not in your party, so Flesh-to-Stone vs. Stone-to-Flesh and Imprisonment vs. Freedom are the only vanilla means to complete "required killing quests" while still being able to restore the target to life. I actually think it's quite elegant.

Also, a wizard employing such means could still use various other effects like Otiluke's Resilient Sphere and Web to have a way to handle battles without using Invisibility (which won't always work so well since some monsters see invisible as an innate ability).

***THRONE OF BHAAL MINOR SPOILER ALERT***

Hmm... *ponders* I wonder how it would work in ToB. I know some bosses there are immune to Imprisonment, but what about Flesh-to-Stone? I think it sounds like a fun challenge if it's possible to complete the game with it.

[Moganza]

I also like the random-stat challenge taifun suggested. I think it would be even more fun in a multiplayer group where you might end up with 5 useless players and 1 they all depends on lol

[moilami]

Urdjur wrote...

moilami wrote...
Turning to stone someone does not count as killing? xD Fantastical new logic! Burning someone doesn't count as killing either! Fireballs and combust are okay. Similarly you can kill with swords and raise afterwards. Killing doesn't count as killing! Awesome.. Even G. Orwel would be speechless!

Ah, but you can't raise NPCs not in your party, so Flesh-to-Stone vs. Stone-to-Flesh and Imprisonment vs. Freedom are the only vanilla means to complete "required killing quests" while still being able to restore the target to life. I actually think it's quite elegant.

Hey, you know that is an perfect example of Doublethink xD

The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak
words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an
opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is
white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member,
it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party
discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that
black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget
that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous
alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which
really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.
Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs
in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
– Part II, Chapter IX — The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism

Have to login on some NWN server and kill a few players. After that I raise them and say I never killed you. Or, hmm, maybe I wont do it  xD

If you need to kill people in BG2 then you can't win pacifist challenge. You can only use Doublethink to believe something else.

Modifié par moilami, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:40 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

moilami I'm not sure I'd agree with this. While I don't share the opinion that Flesh-to-Stone (and the reversal thereof) is a completely legitimate manner of performing a no-killings challenge in BG, it's certainly up to discussion, especially so since neither Petrification nor Imprisonment actually kill the enemy (meaning a ressurection is not necessary).

For the Black=White comparison to work, you'd have to declare everything murder that stops life - which includes the spell Time Stop (among other stuff).

[moilami]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

moilami I'm not sure I'd agree with this. While I don't share the opinion that Flesh-to-Stone (and the reversal thereof) is a completely legitimate manner of performing a no-killings challenge in BG, it's certainly up to discussion, especially so since neither Petrification nor Imprisonment actually kill the enemy (meaning a ressurection is not necessary).
For the Black=White comparison to work, you'd have to declare everything murder that stops life - which includes the spell Time Stop (among other stuff).

If you think reversing something means something before that never happened, you fall to doublethink. If you think stone to flesh doesn't kill someone, then I don't even know what you think.

I don't know what imprisonment does.

But what Time Stop does? Stops the time. Meaning you don't lose even a fraction of second of your life, and certainly you are not killed.

I believe this no reload pacifist challenge is a descendant of Nethack's pacifist challenge. In Nethack the conduct does not break if you use Flesh to Stone scrolls. So I know there is a strong siding on "lol flesh to stone does not kill u". It doesn't however mean it would be true. And certainly everything is discussable. But I am uninterested to participate in doublethink "greater understanding" discussions. No puns intended in any sentence I wrote.