56 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Taifun]

moilami wrote...
If you think reversing something means something before that never happened, you fall to doublethink. If you think stone to flesh doesn't kill someone, then I don't even know what you think.

Smart. Don't even start a discussion. Simply block every argument by telling me how wrong I am. (Isn't that a logical fallacy?)

I don't know what imprisonment does.

It...
... imprisons you. Far below ground level in a tiny tiny cell (I've never understood whether you get a room of small propoportions or your proportions. The description is also unclear about the fact of how (if) it keeps you alive, all it says is that you are there to stay.

But what Time Stop does? Stops the time. Meaning you don't lose even a fraction of second of your life, and certainly you are not killed.

Life is a process. If your heart doesn't beat, and if your brain doesn't work, you're not living. The Time Stop casting mage could check these things on the surrounding people. Guess what he'd find out. And explain how this is different from the stopping of your personal time when you are subject to a Flesh-to-Stone spell.
Oh, and by the way, here is a link to a D&D wiki, that describes the petrified state as "unconscious" (which is significantly different from dead). I'm not saying that it must be right because they wrote it, but I hope you stop dismissing this so easily if I show you that it seems to be a rather popular opinion.
Oh, and here are some more links. Look for yourself it those don't suffice to make this point.

But I am uninterested to participate in doublethink "greater understanding" discussions.

I hope you will at least take enough time to actually find out that I may have a valid point...

[lroumen]

Actually, none of the game effects are described as kills but rather as unconsciousness, entrapment or immobilization, just to keep the player from questioning these kind of things. Only getting HPbelow0 by lethal damage (or by Levelbelow0, attributebelow0) is a kill and those can be undone by resurrection or raise dead spells.



But, the game can be fooled by casting imprisonment or flesh->stone to get around an actual game kill.



Definitions are in the eyes of the beholder. If you go by "non-beating heart" then even stun and web for instance kill you too. This discussion is way too complicated for just enjoying the game in a new fashion.

[moilami]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

moilami wrote...
If you think reversing something means something before that never happened, you fall to doublethink. If you think stone to flesh doesn't kill someone, then I don't even know what you think.

Smart. Don't even start a discussion. Simply block every argument by telling me how wrong I am. (Isn't that a logical fallacy?)

I don't know what imprisonment does.

It...
... imprisons you. Far below ground level in a tiny tiny cell (I've never understood whether you get a room of small propoportions or your proportions. The description is also unclear about the fact of how (if) it keeps you alive, all it says is that you are there to stay.

Ok. So, if it would happen anytime that the imprisoned person would die, then the pacifist conduct would certainly break. I am guessing he would be at least starved to death. GL in finishing the game before starving would happen

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

moilami wrote...

But what Time Stop does? Stops the time. Meaning you don't lose even a fraction of second of your life, and certainly you are not killed.

Life is a process. If your heart doesn't beat, and if your brain doesn't work, you're not living. The Time Stop casting mage could check these things on the surrounding people. Guess what he'd find out. And explain how this is different from the stopping of your personal time when you are subject to a Flesh-to-Stone spell.
Oh, and by the way, here is a link to a D&D wiki, that describes the petrified state as "unconscious" (which is significantly different from dead). I'm not saying that it must be right because they wrote it, but I hope you stop dismissing this so easily if I show you that it seems to be a rather popular opinion.
Oh, and here are some more links. Look for yourself it those don't suffice to make this point.

But I am uninterested to participate in doublethink "greater understanding" discussions.

I hope you will at least take enough time to actually find out that I may have a valid point...

Time stop is alteration of environment so to say. It doesn't do anything directly or undirectly to the affected persons. You can't measure will one's heart be beating if the time used to do it is zero or approaches zero. The mage casting the time stop though could try to measure does the heart beat, and might get a result of no perceivable heart beatings happening. However that is unclear because can't those being affected by time stop be able to observe what is happening? At least the screen does not go black, but it can be game mechanics issue. In theory affected persons should not be able to observe what is happening because their brains would not have required time to process the information. But when the "clock" would begin to "tick" again, they could continue life as usual. Nothing ever changed in their bodies, and they did not miss a single heart beat, so to say

Flesh to Stone doesn't change the environment. It just makes you dead as stone, even though descriptions on those links hilariously stated one would be unconscious. However I think that is state for game mechanics. E.G. you can't use raise dead scroll to reverse Flesh to Stone.

* * *

I think I was wrong when I said Nethack's Pacifist conduct would not break if Flesh to Stone scroll was used. I made some research and it appears that using Flesh to Stone in Nethack definetly breaks the conduct. However using Genocide in Nethack does not break the conduct (WTF? O_O). Then again, praying and "Causing a monster that has engulfed you to be killed by your god's bolt of lightning or disintegration beam" breaks the conduct as does reflecting Medusa's gaze, which effectively stones the Medusa. See? Even defensive indirect stoning breaks the conduct in Nethack. You just use a mirror to reflect the petrifying gaze, petrify the medusa in the process, and lose the pacifist conduct.

nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Pacifist

My highest apologies for creators of Nethack for spreading misinformation!

Modifié par moilami, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:29 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

lroumen wrote...
Actually, none of the game effects are described as kills but rather as unconsciousness, entrapment or immobilization, just to keep the player from questioning these kind of things.

As opposed to killing spells, which have the very clear effect of death. I don't think anyone ever confused Finger of Death for just another disabling spell.

If you go by "non-beating heart" then even stun and web for instance kill you too. This discussion is way too complicated for just enjoying the game in a new fashion.

I know that your animation freezes ingame, but I don't really think that means Web and Stun actually stop your heart. But even if they do, it doesn't really oppose my line of arguing of
"if A (something questionable) = true then A' (something rather ridiculous) = true; therefore A = not true"

[Humanoid_Taifun]

moilami wrote...
Ok. So, if it would happen anytime that the
imprisoned person would die, then the pacifist conduct would certainly
break. I am guessing he would be at least starved to death. GL in
finishing the game before starving would happen

Unless, as was proposed, you free the victim in time...

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Time
stop is alteration of environment so to say. It doesn't do anything
directly or undirectly to the affected persons. You can't measure will
one's heart be beating if the time used to do it is zero or approaches
zero.

Time and space are not equal for all of us, and yet we
measure them. What is important in these cases is that you are able to
stick to your personal time experiences, because clearly time passes for
you, otherwise you wouldn't be able to move.
Reminds me of how you measure velocity when approaching light speed (in theory).

However that is unclear because can't those being affected by
time stop be able to observe what is happening? At least the screen
does not go black, but it can be game mechanics issue.

That's what I assume it is.
Plus a little service because a) it would suck having to watch a black
screen for several seconds and the player wants to know what happened
(and "You're DEAD! HAH!" is not really satisfactory)

Nothing ever changed in their bodies, and they did not miss a single heart beat, so to say

Which is different from Petrification how?

Flesh
to Stone doesn't change the environment. It just makes you dead as
stone, even though descriptions on those links hilariously stated one
would be unconscious.

It makes you stone, sure. But in this world stone isn't dead - it's simply stone - and on Toril, it isn't necessarily dead either.

I think
I was wrong when I said Nethack's Pacifist conduct would not break if
Flesh to Stone scroll was used.

I took a look at your link and I don't think it was named appropiately. The conduct clearly made no issue of wantom mass destruction, so long as it couldn't directly be linked to you ("Genocide is allowed"). That's not very pacifictic, unless the generals that ordered Hiroshima and Nagasaki leveled were pacifists in these actions as well.
May I rename it "Not-dirtying-my-own-hands approach"?
And as long as no actual arguments are delivered (as to the why petrification is murder), I will not blindly accept their desicions as the right ones, in any case.

[Urdjur]

But even if they do, it doesn't really oppose my line of arguing of
"if A (something questionable) = true then A' (something rather ridiculous) = true; therefore A = not true"

My hero! Upholding the tenets of rational argumentation on Internet forums may be an exercise in futility, but I'm glad someone has the stamina for it. Personally, once I saw where this thread was headed, I decided to relegate my troll hunting to the inifinity engine and left. But FWIW:
http://en.wikipedia..../Slippery_slope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

/A true Scotsman

[moilami]

[quote]
Time and space are not equal for all of us, and yet we
measure them. What is important in these cases is that you are able to
stick to your personal time experiences, because clearly time passes for
you, otherwise you wouldn't be able to move.
Reminds me of how you measure velocity when approaching light speed (in theory).[quote][/quote]

Ah, so you claim that if the target can't get a clue he is/was dead, then he can't be considered as such?

[quote]However that is unclear because can't those being affected by
time stop be able to observe what is happening? At least the screen
does not go black, but it can be game mechanics issue.[/quote]
That's what I assume it is.
Plus a little service because a) it would suck having to watch a black
screen for several seconds and the player wants to know what happened
(and "You're DEAD! HAH!" is not really satisfactory)
[quote]Nothing ever changed in their bodies, and they did not miss a single heart beat, so to say [/quote]
Which is different from Petrification how?[/quote][/quote]

Obviously the fact that time stopped persons are not made of stone as petrified persons are. If you say time stop breaks pacifist conduct then hold person should break also.

[quote]Flesh
to Stone doesn't change the environment. It just makes you dead as
stone, even though descriptions on those links hilariously stated one
would be unconscious.
It makes you stone, sure. But in this world stone isn't dead - it's simply stone - and on Toril, it isn't necessarily dead either. [/quote][/quote]

[/quote]Those elementals are very different than petrified human. Plain rock in D&D is dead and lifeless, as is petrified person.[/quote]


[quote]I think
I was wrong when I said Nethack's Pacifist conduct would not break if
Flesh to Stone scroll was used.
I took a look at your link and I don't think it was named appropiately. The conduct clearly made no issue of wantom mass destruction, so long as it couldn't directly be linked to you ("Genocide is allowed"). That's not very pacifictic, unless the generals that ordered Hiroshima and Nagasaki leveled were pacifists in these actions as well.
May I rename it "Not-dirtying-my-own-hands approach"?
And as long as no actual arguments are delivered (as to the why petrification is murder), I will not blindly accept their desicions as the right ones, in any case.
[/quote]

You took a look? You obviously know nothing of Nethack. The link told exactly what it should about hard coded Pacifist challenge in Nethack, a game long lived before none knew nothing of Bioware. How this relates to pacifist challenge? Both games use same basic rules based on D&D, and in Nethack using a mirror to reflect Medusa's gaze breaks the pacifist challenge. You can of course make your parallel universes where war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strenght, and STONE IS LIFE. This is why I did not want to discuss and become enlightened of doublethink "greater understanding".

But now you begin to say that no actual arguments are delivered as why petrification is murder and you wont "accept" it as such. So effectively you say everything I have said has been just rubbish I can happily let you live with that opinion and petrify hell out of everything in you "pacifist" runs

Modifié par moilami, 14 janvier 2011 - 04:49 .

[moilami]

Doublepost.

Modifié par moilami, 14 janvier 2011 - 04:24 .

[moilami]

Wtf another double when trying to fix broken quaotations.

Modifié par moilami, 14 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[moilami]

A new reply just to make clear who wrote this:

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

It makes you stone, sure. But in this world stone isn't dead - it's simply stone - and on Toril, it isn't necessarily dead either.

That is your stance. You can keep it no problems Petrify as much as you want in your "pacifist" runs. I care more of random fly at times coming into my house

Modifié par moilami, 14 janvier 2011 - 04:29 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

moilami wrote...
Obviously the fact that time stopped persons
are not made of stone as petrified persons are. If you say time stop
breaks pacifist conduct then hold person should break also.

I said nothing of the sort. And how is Hold Person like Time Stop?
The held person is (per description) aware and breathing (meaning: alive).

Those
elementals are very different than petrified human. Plain rock in
D&D is dead and lifeless, as is petrified person.

"Dead" and "lifeless" are two different things.

You took a look? You
obviously know nothing of Nethack. The link told exactly what it should
about hard coded Pacifist challenge in Nethack,

Oh. Does that mean it has nothing to do with Baldur's Gate?
Because I think it does.

How this relates to pacifist challenge?
Both games use same basic rules based on D&D,

Oh, that explains everything.
If the pacifist challenge is part of the actual DnD rules, then you would have a point (so long as somebody was trying a Pacifist Challenge as opposed to a minimal killings challenge, where murder (indirect or direct) was to be avoided).
The creators seem to have defined murder everything where you get the XP for the creature. By that same logic, in BG2 it's not murder to Int-drain your enemies to death - even though they clearly die, and you are clearly the culprit.
(if I misunderstood, please feel free to correct me)

But
now you begin to say that no actual arguments are delivered as why
petrification is murder and you wont "accept" it as such. So effectively
you say everything I have said has been just rubbish I can happily
let you live with that opinion and petrify hell out of everything in you
"pacifist" runs

Thanks for the clarification. I think I will now tell myself DNFTT 100 times under my breath and ignore this "discussion" henceforth.
If you suddenly feel up to actually discussing it though, feel free to open a new thread or sending me a PM.

P.S. It's kind of unfair, isn't it? Actually responding to somebody, but declaring them trolls at the same time and making it known that you will not acknowledge any more arguments brought forth?
Good thing I wasn't the first one to do it.

[moilami]

Huh, I said very early on I have no interest to discuss doublethink logic. This includes to say petfrification is not killing, smashing someone's head is not killing, and Finger of Death is not killing. Those are just ways to "disable" a person. You can also keep pulling elementals out of other planets and state "these live, so stone lives, thus petrified person never got killed". I really don't care what you say when you say killing is not killing, and naturally I am much less interested to discuss with you about it



You can also call me troll when I disagree with your opinions and dare to do it in public forum! I don't care.



But for curiosity's sake, what happens to the Bhaalspawn if he gets petrified? Does the game end? If the game does end, then even the game mechanics would consider petrification as dead for now xDDDDD



U lose. Keep calling me "troll" for it is you who does not have arguments to say how petrified person is not killed.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

moilami wrote...
Huh, I said very early on I have no interest to discuss doublethink logic. This includes to say petfrification is not killing, smashing someone's head is not killing, and Finger of Death is not killing.

(I'm going to refrain from giving a few examples where smashing somebody's head is indeed not killing, because it would be stupid)

You can also keep pulling elementals out of other planets and state "these live, so stone lives, thus petrified person never got killed".

Never did say that. My argument was that they are merely stopped and can be restarted at any time by use of the Stone-to-Flesh spell, sort of like a video-tape, or a person under the effect of Time Stop.

You can also call me troll when I disagree with your opinions and dare to do it in public forum! I don't care.

But it made you deliver an actual argument for the first time. So it seems to have been effective. Maybe I should do it more often?

But for curiosity's sake, what happens to the Bhaalspawn if he gets petrified? Does the game end? If the game does end, then even the game mechanics would consider petrification as dead for now xDDDDD

This argument here, to be precise.
Engine Limitation. Imprisonment and Petrification both end the game when they hit you. Maze does as well, when you are solo.
I do agree though that while D&D in general says petrified characters are not dead, this can be interpreted to mean that Baldur's Gate says they are. ("interpreted" being the word here. doublethink still doesn't take place)

U lose. Keep calling me "troll" for it is you who does not have arguments to say how petrified person is not killed.

Please read above. And you are a troll for never actually adressing my arguments (or even noticing them, going by what you're saying here).

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

moilami wrote...
Obviously the fact that time stopped persons
are not made of stone as petrified persons are. If you say time stop
breaks pacifist conduct then hold person should break also.

I said nothing of the sort. And how is Hold Person like Time Stop?
The held person is (per description) aware and breathing (meaning: alive).

It appears I overread a sentence of yours.
"Obviously the fact that time stopped persons are not made of stone as petrified persons are."
So it's not that they are not moving, it's simply that they are of a different elemental composition.
Is a druid transforming into an earth elemental commiting suicide?
Or is it the combination of both (not moving and being made of stone)?
Is a druid in earth elemental shape considered dead when a mage casts Time Stop?

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 14 janvier 2011 - 07:57 .

[Moganza]

Surely stopping time would simply force the person to remain at a constant state because time is not progressing and thus if he is alive before time is stopped then he is alive for the duration of the spell. I also believe that stun spells also force the person to simply not change state and thus is alive for the duration of the spell. If you consider a person to be dead when stunned how would you explain being able to kill him/her after being stunned isn't that double death.



I personally believe that a person's hitpoints should determine whether someone is alive or not. Flesh to stone technically doesn't kill someone because that person although in a different state still has hitpoints. I believe its the same thing with imprisonment as well because although that person has vanished his hitpoints are unchanged. Once again the same thing applies to Maze.



As for the debate of double think I don't understand how it can work in practical terms.

[moilami]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

moilami wrote...

You can also keep pulling elementals out of other planets and state "these live, so stone lives, thus petrified person never got killed".

Never did say that. My argument was that they are merely stopped and can be restarted at any time by use of the Stone-to-Flesh spell, sort of like a video-tape, or a person under the effect of Time Stop.

And I said long time ago combust is fine with the exactly same logic. You just get scarred, something of you turns to ashes, but after raise dead you are fine. Logically then killing someone by sword is fine too because you can just use raise dead and everything is fine. But for some reason killing with a sword counts as killing, as does count killing with Combust or killing with Flesh to Stone. What might be that reason? Can you tell?

A human killed with a sword or killed by Combust is as much "stopped" as human killed by Flesh to Stone. Why two of those count as killing but this third Flesh to Stone does not? Explain. And don't bring earth elementals to say apples are oranges.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

But it made you deliver an actual argument for the first time. So it seems to have been effective. Maybe I should do it more often?

No. All you have done is excellent examples of doublethink, or apples and oranges arguments. Or pulling whatever grapes out of your hat.

[moilami]

Moganza wrote...

Surely stopping time would simply force the person to remain at a constant state because time is not progressing and thus if he is alive before time is stopped then he is alive for the duration of the spell. I also believe that stun spells also force the person to simply not change state and thus is alive for the duration of the spell. If you consider a person to be dead when stunned how would you explain being able to kill him/her after being stunned isn't that double death.

I certainly don't believe Hold Person kills.

Moganza wrote...

I personally believe that a person's hitpoints should determine whether someone is alive or not. Flesh to stone technically doesn't kill someone because that person although in a different state still has hitpoints. I believe its the same thing with imprisonment as well because although that person has vanished his hitpoints are unchanged. Once again the same thing applies to Maze.

So, if necromancer kills you and then animates you back as a corpsie (zombie), you have hitpoints, you live, and you never got killed?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

moilami wrote...
And I said long time ago combust is fine with
the exactly same logic. You just get scarred, something of you turns to
ashes, but after raise dead you are fine. Logically then killing
someone by sword is fine too because you can just use raise dead and
everything is fine. But for some reason killing with a sword counts as
killing, as does count killing with Combust or killing with Flesh to
Stone. What might be that reason? Can you tell?

At this point I guess I guess I actually have to start calling out some of the logical fallacies you employ.
This one is the many questions fallacy.
Please don't try to make me explain why A is not B under the assumption that A is B.

A
human killed with a sword or killed by Combust is as much "stopped" as
human killed by Flesh to Stone. Why two of those count as killing but
this third Flesh to Stone does not? Explain. And don't bring earth
elementals to say apples are oranges.

You could "stop" a car by having it park in front of a red light, or by having a tank shoot at it. In either case it does not continue to move forward, but only in one does it remain intact. Can you guess in which?

[moilami]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Is a druid transforming into an earth elemental commiting suicide?

I don't know about Druid stuff but it appers Druid is taking some kind of planar form and keeps living as well as being able to interract with things. Are you saying Druid taking elemental form is nothing different to using Flesh to Scroll on someone? If not, then your question is not related to the situation we are discussing. Remember we are discussing does Flesh to Stone count as killing.

[moilami]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

moilami wrote...
And I said long time ago combust is fine with
the exactly same logic. You just get scarred, something of you turns to
ashes, but after raise dead you are fine. Logically then killing
someone by sword is fine too because you can just use raise dead and
everything is fine. But for some reason killing with a sword counts as
killing, as does count killing with Combust or killing with Flesh to
Stone. What might be that reason? Can you tell?

At this point I guess I guess I actually have to start calling out some of the logical fallacies you employ.
This one is the many questions fallacy.
Please don't try to make me explain why A is not B under the assumption that A is B.

Hahahaha, I do want you explain that to me. I very much do want you do that. Because then I will see how much you really understand instead of just imagining to understand logic.

So, I stand by those many questions and you explain why they are wrong questions.

Modifié par moilami, 14 janvier 2011 - 10:29 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

moilami wrote...

Moganza wrote...
Flesh to stone technically doesn't kill someone because that person although in a different state still has hitpoints. I believe its the same thing with imprisonment as well because although that person has vanished his hitpoints are unchanged. Once again the same thing applies to Maze.

So, if necromancer kills you and then animates you back as a corpsie (zombie), you have hitpoints, you live, and you never got killed?

What does one have to do with the other? "still has his hitpoints" (meaning: you never lost them) = died (and lost all HP) and was reanimated as an undead?
Is this the infamous doublethink you warned us about?

moilami wrote...
I don't
know about Druid stuff but it appers Druid is taking some kind of
planar form and keeps living as well as being able to interract with
things. Are you saying Druid taking elemental form is nothing different
to using Flesh to Scroll on someone?

Good thing you quote so selective. I asked what it is exactly that makes Petrification a killing spell in your opinion.
The composition is a) as alien to the original as the composition of a petrified person, and the two states (earth elemental and petrified person) are also rather similar. So you choose. Is it the same? If no, then explain why. (and if the answer is "because a petrified person can't move", please take a look at the question directly underneath of what you quoted)
Edit: From now on, all my responses will be personal messages to not further put the thread off-topic.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 14 janvier 2011 - 10:33 .

[Urdjur]

"When you knock down a troll, use fire or acid on it to kill it."

[Moganza]

Moganza wrote...
Flesh to stone technically doesn't kill someone because that person although in a different state still has hitpoints. I believe its the same thing with imprisonment as well because although that person has vanished his hitpoints are unchanged. Once again the same thing applies to Maze.

Moilami wrote...
So, if necromancer kills you and then animates you back as a corpsie (zombie), you have hitpoints, you live, and you never got killed?

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
What does one have to do with the other? "still has his hitpoints" (meaning: you never lost them) = died (and lost all HP) and was reanimated as an undead?
Is this the infamous doublethink you warned us about?

I don't know if you agreed with i'm about to say Taifun but let me just explain myself. If a necromancer kills you then you effectively have 0 hitpoints (at this point your are DEAD) if he chooses to reanimate or you are ressurected your hitpoints are restored and thus you are once again alive. I don't know if you just failed to grasp this simple point, you lived you died and came back to life. It seems like you are being deliberately stupid in order to further your argument.

Modifié par Moganza, 15 janvier 2011 - 12:02 .

[moilami]

Moganza wrote...

Moganza wrote...
Flesh to stone technically doesn't kill someone because that person although in a different state still has hitpoints. I believe its the same thing with imprisonment as well because although that person has vanished his hitpoints are unchanged. Once again the same thing applies to Maze.

Moilami wrote...
So, if necromancer kills you and then animates you back as a corpsie (zombie), you have hitpoints, you live, and you never got killed?

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
What does one have to do with the other? "still has his hitpoints" (meaning: you never lost them) = died (and lost all HP) and was reanimated as an undead?
Is this the infamous doublethink you warned us about?

I don't know if you agreed with i'm about to say Taifun but let me just explain myself. If a necromancer kills you then you effectively have 0 hitpoints (at this point your are DEAD) if he chooses to reanimate or you are ressurected your hitpoints are restored and thus you are once again alive. I don't know if you just failed to grasp this simple point, you lived you died and came back to life. It seems like you are being deliberately stupid in order to further your argument.

Don't jump too eagerly into conclusions you wish to make in order to escape reality. Or can you claim you are alive as mindless zombie even if you would have all HP in the world? Or would your body just exist in the world like whatever renaimated corpse? Or like whatever statue in case Flesh to Stone was used on you? Hmm? How it is? Who can't grasp what now?

Are you really saying you would be alive with all the HP you had if you were a reanimated zombie or a statue made of stone? Do you deny in case of zombie there would be only your corpse, and in the case of statue there would be only a statue made of stone, which by all means does not live xDDDD

GL living as a statue after Flesh to Stone preservation treatment. GL living as a reanimated Zombie too. I guess I can't anymore kill undeads in RPGs because I would kill real human beings instead of abused corpses.

[moilami]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

moilami wrote...

Moganza wrote...
Flesh to stone technically doesn't kill someone because that person although in a different state still has hitpoints. I believe its the same thing with imprisonment as well because although that person has vanished his hitpoints are unchanged. Once again the same thing applies to Maze.

So, if necromancer kills you and then animates you back as a corpsie (zombie), you have hitpoints, you live, and you never got killed?

What does one have to do with the other? "still has his hitpoints" (meaning: you never lost them) = died (and lost all HP) and was reanimated as an undead?
Is this the infamous doublethink you warned us about?

I answered to that in another post. TL;DR: Your imaginary game mechanics HP have nothing to do when judging has victim of flesh to stone spell been killed or not.


Edit: Wait... now I got this new logic. A mage uses Flesh to Stone spell on a human. The human does not get killed but just preserved in lively stone form. The mage walks away happily thinking he helped now an unknown person in free time travel. A Vandal comes and sees the statue. The vandal crushes statue to dust. Who killed what? Mage killed nothing. Only a moron does not understand that Flesh to Stone kills nothing. Stone is not dead! The vandal was the killer! The mage just preserved life xDDDD  Proof: The victim have exactly the same HP as it had before Flesh to Stone!

But then, if another mage uses combust on a test subject, effectively killing him, then the person is killed even though he could be raised back to life. U know, EVERYONE KNOWS LOL that his HP went to zero, and that never happened to person made to be a stone statue. Stone Statue have FULL HP! Don't you get it. And if u disagree u r just trolling. U can do pacifist by just stoning people and then using Stone to Flesh on them. It is very different to killing by sword or combust and then raising bc stone lives. Stone bez FULL HP, u must understand or u r troll.

Wonderful new logic! I just can't agree with it, and I can say it pisses a lot a few people here 

(Please mister answer to my "many questions fallacy" and explain how they were bad. You can't just pull links out of your hat and say "now you did this and that" without explaining. I am very curious to see more of this wonderful new logic!)

Modifié par moilami, 15 janvier 2011 - 01:09 .