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Concerns and things you don't like in DA2


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#76
Beaner28

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My biggest qualm so far is the fact that the length of time to play from beginning to end is going to be much shorter than Origins. Shorter length means the game has less content. Less content is what happens when you shorten dev time to rush something out. Development time counts people.

As for the over the top animations I don't really have an opinion. We haven't really seen any extended gameplay footage to know for sure, even though we're only four months away from release which pretty much tells you this thing is being half assed and rushed out.

Edit: I mean five months before DA:O's release at E3 in June of 09 we saw the entire Flemeth fight and got a fully playable demo of it. Here's what was being shown at E3:



We saw how it was going to play and we knew so much more about was was in it. We're only four months away and all we've seen is a two minute cinematic and another minute and a half gameplay trailer which showed next to nothing plus a few locations and concept art posted on the website.

The fact we know next to nothing about this game so close to release tells you all you need to know. The more I think about it, DA 2 is going to be a disaster. I will say I told you so.

Modifié par Beaner28, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:04 .


#77
SirOccam

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Aermas wrote...

We are limited by more than race, we are limited by our origin. In Origins I could be a human noble or a human mage. An elven Dalish, an elven Commoner or an Elven Mage. That's three origin stories for one race

Race, class, and origin are really three sides of the same freakish, three-sided coin, though. It's not as though origin is another choice in and of itself that we are being denied. You only had a choice of 2 origins at most after you chose your race and class, only 1 if you chose Mage as your class, regardless of race.

I'll concede the point though, as you do have a point. Still, I would categorize that in the same way that I do the restriction on race. I think trading a little bit of freedom for the chance for giving the writers the ability to write a more personal, affecting storyline might very well be worth it in this case. Of course that depends on whether they take advantage of that control.

#78
upsettingshorts

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Rawgrim wrote...

Also. Maybe since Hawke (maybe) ends up as the ruler of the Free Marches, they couldn`t use another race than a human. Given the racism in the lands and whatsnot. Given how the elves are treated, I doubt humans would like to be ruled by an elf (humans seems to be the biggest race in Thedas after all). Just thought I`d add to Upsettingshorts list there.


That'd fall under #2, story first, features second.  #1 is features first, story second.  Either way, the protagonist is human, and DA:2's story will inevitably be judged at least partially on how critical his race is to his participation in the plot.

If an elf or dwarf would have made as much or almost as much sense... it'll be a missed opportunity I think.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 novembre 2010 - 12:55 .


#79
SirOccam

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Beaner28 wrote...

My biggest qualm so far is the fact that the length of time to play from beginning to end is going to be much shorter than Origins. Shorter length means the game has less content. Less content is what happens when you shorten dev time to rush something out. Development time counts people.

Okay, but length and quality are not always directly proportional. Any given three-hour movie is not necessarily better than any given two-hour movie, nor are massive, 2000-page tomes guaranteed to be better than a novella of a couple hundred pages.

#80
KJandrew

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I find it rather amusing that quite a few people who complain about it becoming like ME2 also want the warden back, but as far as i'm aware very few RPG's other than ME2 have you play as the same character from the first.

As RPG's are supposed to be about starting weak and becoming the strongest. so it's kind of odd to start the second one as the strongest being in the world. Unless they do a really annoying thing were they take away your powers

#81
Mecha Tengu

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worried inventory will be gone



worried too much action oriented



worried too much DLC will milk me



(see I kept it TLDR)

#82
SirOccam

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Rawgrim wrote...

2 more voice actors for the fully voiced Hawke. 2 more for Bethany, 2 more for Carver. Since these are main characters, i do belive they would be pretty "top of the line" actors as well. That would cost abit extra.

With all due respect to Nicholas Boulton, I wouldn't call him a "top of the line" actor. He's great, sure, but it's not like he's a Hollywood celebrity.

#83
Nefario

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KJandrew wrote...

I find it rather amusing that quite a few people who complain about it becoming like ME2 also want the warden back, but as far as i'm aware very few RPG's other than ME2 have you play as the same character from the first.
As RPG's are supposed to be about starting weak and becoming the strongest. so it's kind of odd to start the second one as the strongest being in the world. Unless they do a really annoying thing were they take away your powers


Well, you could play the same character in the two Baldur's Gate games, and with Dragon Age being the "spiritual successor" I can see where that complaint comes from. Don't really care, myself, though.
I'd challenge your second point though. I'm not really of the opinion that RPGs are "supposed" to be anything.

#84
KJandrew

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Nefario wrote...

I'd challenge your second point though. I'm not really of the opinion that RPGs are "supposed" to be anything.

RPG's are supposed to give you choice, something i'll think you'll find was missing in GOA and still makes me angry at spending cash on

#85
Monica83

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I don't want dragon age like mass effect i also dont want have the warden back i just want create a complete new character and roleplay it in all aspects... The problem is dragon age 2 is much more limited maybe not by phisical creation of character but with static classes and with the dialog wheel ala mass effect this because you have general lines of what your character is going to say.. This mean you don't have the pshicological control of your character because you are forced to play a partial premaded one with his personality and pshycologi.. The old dialogue system is better because allow you to select what your character is going to say and not a general line... This system in a game where is supposed are you to create your hero is a deep finger in the eye.. because the character is not total yours...



This alone make me disappoint of DA2 and if you add all cutted down features...

Trashy anim

Static classes

Short lenght than origins



Its really hard for me to try a reason to call this game a dragon age game and not a mass effect medieval version game...



The problem is bioware accepted to follow the fashionist way of mass effect to encrease console audience.. And what is born like an old school rpg its slapped away... *sighs*

#86
b09boy

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Let's see if I can remember all my concerns and disappointments.

-Paraphrased wheel.  It's pretty inevitable with this system that at some point you're going to pick one answer and say another.  It's an issue of extremes.  You mean to say a simple negative response and instead start screaming a character out or vice versa.

-Voiced character.  Unless things have changed radically, not only is this a likely cause for the shortening of the game, it will also allow less conversation choices and give a voice to a character which would otherwise be mine.  Adding a voice is the difference between being Bioware's character and my own because, even though your responses are set and NPC responses are set, tone of voice can create an enormous difference in forming your own personality.  A voiced character will allow for a more cinematic experience, this is true.  But a non-voiced character allows for a more personal experience as you are not playing a character so much as you ARE the character.

-Style.  Don't like it.  I've never liked over-the-top.  Should DA be strictly real?  No.  But I was under the impression Bioware wanted to go for a dark and gritty look to the series.  While they might not have quite reached that with Origins, I like that style and would have liked to have seen it developed further.  Instead this looks like something out of a comic book.  A sometimes very campy comic book.  Oh goody it's unique.  Reminds me of people who go out and get Japanese tattoos they can't even read just to dodge conformity.  I think a couple dev quotes sum the styles of the two games up well.  For Origins I remember someone saying something along the lines of, "Alright, you managed to survive this battle.  Now 400,000 more to go."  It envoked a brutal desperation which it was obvious they were trying to impart onto the series.  In DA2, "Think like a general, fight like a spartan."  It screams over-the-top and trying to get people's attention which I think is exactly what I think they're trying to impart in this game.  And just like the quote, I think they're trying too hard.

-Gameplay pace.  Combat could have definitely been improved upon by allowing characters to set up moves easier.  However, this new pace is as over-the-top as the style.  Attack speed is breakneck and some of the abilities (such as the rogue's teleport or the fact that you can manually avoid attacks judging by a recent video where a kiting character ran away to successfully dodge an ogre charge, boulder and swipe) point to the game having something of a breakneck pace which I don't think will mix well with strategic combat.

-class differentiation.  First off I always imagined classes should be differentiated by three very basic ideals to which everything branches out.  Mages use magic.  They are the only class able to do so and thus provide vital support in many unique ways.  Warriors fight.  They can take more hits and do more weapon damage than anything else.  If another class gets unto a simple weapon battle with a warrior they will lose, 'nuff said.  Rogues have utility.  They bring tricks and tools to the table others simply cannot, from the ability to scout, lockpick, backstab or avoid direct battle to more diverse skills such as setting decoys or better poisons, bombs, traps and the like.  So with that said it looks like I'm only getting part of what I want since gameplay seems so very focused on combat.  Warriors will basically be tanks and multi enemy fighters, Rogues will be quick and single enemy fighters.  There is definite differentiation, but not nearly in the way I'd prefer.  More, class differentiation is partially based on weapon style.  This does not work with three classes.  It restricts any sort of combination of style and destroys many beloved builds.  Severe disappointment here.

-Length.  "About as long as ME2" isn't all that long.  Especially for a game spanning 10 years.  I'm not saying story should be added simply for the sake of length, but I somehow doubt the story will have all the nuances everyone would like.  How much, I wonder, was left on the cutting block to bring the game within the VA budget?

-Companion armor.  I always liked the idea of companions having personalized armor.  Giving them a unique look is always a fun touch.  I liked Morrigan having her personal moge robes and I liked mods which gave Leliana and Sten their own personalized armor.  But having the same look from beginning to end of an epic which includes something of a rags to riches storyline and spans 10 years?  I liked Morrigan, Leliana and Sten having their own personal armor, but I also liked them having other options.  I liked upgrading to or from that armor to get better and have it come with a positive visual change.  This new system is as boring as it is ridiculous.

Modifié par b09boy, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:29 .


#87
Remmirath

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Art Style: I'm not a fan of jagged or minimalistic art styles, so I'm not terribly fond of it. I liked the art style better in Origins, although it did have its issues as well (huge hands, proportions being off in others ways). I was worried about it being too cartoony for me to deal with to begin with, but more recent screenshots have shown that to not be the case.
I'm not fond of the new UI design either, but that's the dislike of minimalistic things again. Overall, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, it's just not my favourite kind of art style. I don't think it'll bother me while I play the game.

Dialogue System
: I hate the Dialogue Wheel. It's very annoying to pick one option and have the character say something different. It makes it hard to roleplay the character, since you can't actually choose what they're going to say. Maybe some people can predict it based on the snippets, but I've had an awful track record of that with Mass Effect. 
I don't care that it's a wheel. I don't care what way the lines are arranged. I just would vastly prefer the options to be what the character will actually say. I prefer the selecting topics method of games like Morrowind to the Dialogue Wheel, and that's saying a lot for me, because I'm not fond of that (it doesn't feel like actually interacting with the NPC to me). I'd rather have to completely imagine what my character is saying than get something completely un-predicted.

I also really dislike the voiced PC. When there's as much choice in that as there is in appearance, then great - even being able to choose from a few different voice options would be okay, I guess, although I'd still rather have no voice than that. It restricts playability for me to basically twice, and it's a matter of luck whether or not the voice happens to fit the character.

Animations: I don't really care much about animations, honestly. They seem okay, although the level of blood on killing seems kind of absurd. I mean, I like blood flying around, and I like the blood spatter, but it's almost like they were just sacks of pressurized blood. And that's weird.

Gameplay: I reserve judgement on this until I actually play it. Games never look as fun to play as they are. I don't like the can't-equip-armour-on-the-NPCs thing, but I can get past it. I'll miss being able to have an elven character (or dwarven, though not as much), but assuming there is a solid reason for it I don't mind so much on that.

classes
: If rogues really can only use daggers or bows, that will annoy me. I wish they could still wear heavy armour, but I can understand why that decision was made. I'm going to miss real backstabbing, though.
The other classes seem fine, especially the mage, although I think warriors should be able to use bows.

Length:
I don't know how long it is yet. I like shorter games and longer games. That's not a problem for me, so long as the story doesn't end up feeling rushed or over-drawn out. I replay long games less frequently, but (as noted above somewhere) the voiced PC almost certainly means I won't be playing it more than twice anyhow, so that's not a concern for this.

Conclusion: I can't tell if I will like the game until I actually play the game, but unless the Dialogue Wheel has changed radically (and more than just the intent icons) since Mass Effect, I can tell that it will seriously impact my enjoyment of the game. I don't know how much the PC being voiced will annoy me, because it will depend somewhat on the voice actor - if it happens to fit for the character I make it won't grate on me as often as it will if it doesn't. (It will still grate, because I'm sure there will be some times when the acting goes against what the character would do.) 

In short: I think it'll probably be a fun game that I'll enjoy playing through once (assuming I don't get too frustrated by the wheel), but not the kind of game that I replay at least once a year.

#88
Monica83

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b09boy wrote...

Let's see if I can remember all my concerns and disappointments.

-Paraphrased wheel.  It's pretty inevitable with this system that at some point you're going to pick one answer and say another.  It's an issue of extremes.  You mean to say a simple negative response and instead start screaming a character out or vice versa.

-Voiced character.  Unless things have changed radically, not only is this a likely cause for the shortening of the game, it will also allow less conversation choices and give a voice to a character which would otherwise be mine.  Adding a voice is the difference between being Bioware's character and my own because, even though your responses are set and NPC responses are set, tone of voice can create an enormous difference in forming your own personality.  A voiced character will allow for a more cinematic experience, this is true.  But a non-voiced character allows for a more personal experience as you are not playing a character so much as you ARE the character.

-Style.  Don't like it.  I've never liked over-the-top.  Should DA be strictly real?  No.  But I was under the impression Bioware wanted to go for a dark and gritty look to the series.  While they might not have quite reached that with Origins, I like that style and would have liked to have seen it developed further.  Instead this looks like something out of a comic book.  A sometimes very campy comic book.  Oh goody it's unique.  Reminds me of people who go out and get Japanese tattoos they can't even read just to dodge conformity.  I think a couple dev quotes sum the styles of the two games up well.  For Origins I remember someone saying something along the lines of, "Alright, you managed to survive this battle.  Now 400,000 more to go."  It envoked a brutal desperation which it was obvious they were trying to impart onto the series.  In DA2, "Think like a general, fight like a spartan."  It screams over-the-top and trying to get people's attention which I think is exactly what I think they're trying to impart in this game.  And just like the quote, I think they're trying too hard.

-Gameplay pace.  Combat could have definitely been improved upon by allowing characters to set up moves easier.  However, this new pace is as over-the-top as the style.  Attack speed is breakneck and some of the abilities (such as the rogue's teleport or the fact that you can manually avoid attacks judging by a recent video where a kiting character ran away to successfully dodge an ogre charge, boulder and swipe) point to the game having something of a breakneck pace which I don't think will mix well with strategic combat.

-class differentiation.  First off I always imagined classes should be differentiated by three very basic ideal to which everything branches out.  Mages use magic.  They are the only class able to do so and thus provide vital support in many unique way.  Warriors fight.  They can take more hits and do more weapon damage than anything else.  If another class gets unto a simple weapon battle with a warrior they will lose, 'nuff said.  Rogues have utility.  They bring tricks and tools to the table others simply cannot, from the ability to scout, lockpick, backstab or avoid direct battle to more diverse skills such as setting decoys or better poisons, bombs, traps and the like.  So with that said it looks like I'm only getting part of what I want since gameplay seems so very focused on combat.  Warriors will basically be tanks and multi enemy fighters, Rogues will be quick and single enemy fighters.  There is definite differentiation, but not nearly in the way I'd prefer.  More, class differentiation is partially based on weapon style.  This does not work with three classes.  It restricts any sort of combination of style and destroys many beloved builds.  Severe disappointment here.

-Length.  "About as long as ME2" isn't all that long.  Especially for a game spanning 10 years.  I'm not saying story should be added simply for the sake of length, but I somehow doubt the story will have all the nuances everyone would like.  How much, I wonder, was left on the cutting block to bring the game within the VA budget?

-Companion armor.  I always liked the idea of companions having personalized armor.  Giving them a unique look is always a fun.  I liked Morrigan having her personal moge robes and I liked mods which gave Leliana and Sten their own personalized armor.  But having the same look from beginning to end of an epic which includes something of a rags to riches storyline and spans 10 years?  I liked Morrigan, Leliana and Sten having their own personal armor, but I also liked them having other options.  I liked upgrading to or from that armor to get better and have it come with a positive visual change.  This new system is as boring as it is ridiculous.


I quote this

#89
Apollo Starflare

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I still want those specs all the fine folks who call the game 'dragon effect' or similar are wearing. Faster animations and a dialogue wheel does not make a game a third person sci fi shooter. This just in: Voiced protagonists have actually existed before the Mass Effect franchise! Plus the DA team have even upgraded the system so that the dialogue molds itself to the players choices, that seems a helluva lot like you deciding your characters psychology or whatnot if you ask me.

At least just as much as being able to see the line of dialogue you are about to say anyway. Let's get this straight, you don't write the dialogue in the silent 'Origins' format, it's still pre-written by someone else just like the dialogue in DA2. You will still be able to see the gist of what you are saying in DA2, and they have made a point of saying that paraphrases will more accurately portray what you are going to say this time around. Sure voiced dialogue isn't for everyone, but some people seem to think it's changing more than it is.

What don't I like? I don't like you're disingenuous insinuations.

More seriously I won't be a fan of them removing swords/axes and such from rogues should that be the case. Honestly can't think of anything else that seriously bothers me at this point.

Mecha Tengu wrote...

worried inventory will be gone


Just to clear this up for you: The inventory is there, identical to Origins. There is screenshot evidence, see the Bioware blog!

Modifié par Apollo Starflare, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:26 .


#90
Monica83

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Yes apollo but with the old one dialogues style you "Select" what your character is going to say...

Seems nothing but even if the response are prewrited they are more accurate than the general line of a schematic pharaphrase system.. This mean you have the control of what your character is going to say.. And this means all in a game where are you to create your hero... Allows a nice psichology customization of the character even if limited.. The dialogues ala mass effect no.. How many times with this system you feel yourself out of character and you feel yourself only a spectator?.... Be a spectator its not roleplay...

#91
Beaner28

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Apollo Starflare wrote...

I still want those specs all the fine folks who call the game 'dragon effect' or similar are wearing. Faster animations and a dialogue wheel does not make a game a third person sci fi shooter. This just in: Voiced protagonists have actually existed before the Mass Effect franchise! Plus the DA team have even upgraded the system so that the dialogue molds itself to the players choices, that seems a helluva lot like you deciding your characters psychology or whatnot if you ask me.

At least just as much as being able to see the line of dialogue you are about to say anyway. Let's get this straight, you don't write the dialogue in the silent 'Origins' format, it's still pre-written by someone else just like the dialogue in DA2. You will still be able to see the gist of what you are saying in DA2, and they have made a point of saying that paraphrases will more accurately portray what you are going to say this time around. Sure voiced dialogue isn't for everyone, but some people seem to think it's changing more than it is.

What don't I like? I don't like you're disingenuous insinuations.

More seriously I won't be a fan of them removing swords/axes and such from rogues should that be the case. Honestly can't think of anything else that seriously bothers me at this point.

Mecha Tengu wrote...

worried inventory will be gone


Just to clear this up for you: The inventory is there, identical to Origins. There is screenshot evidence, see the Bioware blog!


I like that we're getting a voiced protagonist. ME style dialogue wheel? Not so much.

The difference between DA and ME is that with DA you felt like you were your character. In ME I felt like I was an observer tagging along to witness the adventures of Shepard. That's a fundamental flaw in an RPG if you ask me. Though I would throw in the caveat that I didn't like ME as much as DA:O. Opinions vary.

Modifié par Beaner28, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:38 .


#92
Beaner28

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Apollo Starflare wrote...

Just to clear this up for you: The inventory is there, identical to Origins. There is screenshot evidence, see the Bioware blog!


Yes, but the fact itemization is being taken away is such a huge blow in my opinion. The depth and strategy that went into deciding what rings, armor, weapons and runes to distribute out to your companions and changing them as the situation entailed is part of what made DA a masterpiece. The fact this is all being thrown out to dumb down the game and make it more action oriented is a terrible decision.

Why does BioWare insist on fixing what wasn't broken? In most cases it seems, they changed some game features and made em worse.

Modifié par Beaner28, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:40 .


#93
Nefario

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Beaner28 wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Just to clear this up for you: The inventory is there, identical to Origins. There is screenshot evidence, see the Bioware blog!


Yes, but the fact itemization is being taken away is such a huge blow in my opinion. The depth and strategy that went into deciding what rings, armor, weapons and runes to distribute out to your companions and changing them as the situation entailed is part of what made DA a masterpiece. The fact this is all being thrown out to dumb down the game and make it more action oriented is a terrible decision.

Why does BioWare insist on fixing what wasn't broken? In most cases it seems, they changed some game features for the worst.


The things you've listed, excepting armor, are exactly the things that haven't been taken out of Dragon Age 2... ?

blog.bioware.com/2010/11/05/dragon-age-2-podcast-episode-5-ethan-levy-and-mike-laidlaw/

Modifié par Nefario, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:42 .


#94
Monica83

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You have a good point ******.... i never noticed they removed itemization... Another dissapointment.... mmmmmmh... more i read more i disappointed... at that point im wondering if this is the bioware i know...

#95
Beaner28

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Nefario wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Just to clear this up for you: The inventory is there, identical to Origins. There is screenshot evidence, see the Bioware blog!


Yes, but the fact itemization is being taken away is such a huge blow in my opinion. The depth and strategy that went into deciding what rings, armor, weapons and runes to distribute out to your companions and changing them as the situation entailed is part of what made DA a masterpiece. The fact this is all being thrown out to dumb down the game and make it more action oriented is a terrible decision.

Why does BioWare insist on fixing what wasn't broken? In most cases it seems, they changed some game features for the worst.


The things you've listed, excepting armor, are exactly the things that haven't been taken out of Dragon Age 2... ?


When I said itemization was being thrown out I was referring to the armor. I just brought up rings, weapons and runes to make a point about DA:O.

Modifié par Beaner28, 14 novembre 2010 - 01:43 .


#96
Monica83

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I don't know why bioware changed a winning formula like origins... We have toons of next gen rpg's why don't continute to make an old style rpg?... More sells?... Following a fashion? this is a nice question..

#97
KLUME777

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I am concerned with:



--Voiced PC.

--Companion Clothes Locked.

--Paraphrase Dialogue Wheel.





Those are the things i really care about, i don't mind being set as human, but I'm not happy about those changes above, because its just looking like ME2, and i didn't enjoy that game nearly as much as DAO.



P.S. Mass Effect's speech moments were cheesy and cringe worthy, at least for FemShep (haven't seen MaleShep), so if DA2's are the same then Voice PC is totally not worth it!

#98
KLUME777

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Monica83 wrote...

I don't know why bioware changed a winning formula like origins... We have toons of next gen rpg's why don't continute to make an old style rpg?... More sells?... Following a fashion? this is a nice question..


To me, it seems that only Obsidion are staying loyal to the fans and staying "Hardcore" or more old-style, with Fallout New Vegas (Great game, playing it right now, dont let glitches turn you off). It also has a lot of nods to Fallout 1 and 2.

If DA2 is not good, or is like ME2 (im not saying it is), then ive lost it with Bioware. I will be dissapointed. Im hoping for the best with DA2.

#99
Monica83

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One moment.... Companion Clothes Locked?.... What's this... so we are now forced to see companion wearing the same stuff on the entire game?...Another point whit my disappointness list....



Da2 will be the most static game ever that seems

#100
blothulfur

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Not being able to change our physical dimensions, got to be the same as every other human in Thedas. Thought a single origin and improved graphics would mean a little customization of my avatar but no it just looks a bit prettier, yeah well that has always been what i've bought bioware games for uber graphics.