276 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile wrote...

Bioware tends to be very good at keeping the party line, so to speak.

They're part of a publicly traded company.  I imagine they're contractually obligated to do so. 

[Enshaid]

In Exile wrote...

b09boy wrote..

Except for the fact that the writers have been very excited about the feature and can't seem to comprehend why a non-voiced protagonist was actually beloved.

Bioware tends to be very good at keeping the party line, so to speak. You will find them speaking about any feature as the feature they wanted to develop, the appropriate feature for the game, and leave it open that they may change things for the future.

Their answer to including VO for DA:O when I was being very pushy for was essentially wha the response is here for silent VO: the appropriate tone for the game is silent/non-silent VO, it fits with the vision of what Bioware wants to do, everyone is excited to work on the project, etc. etc.

If you've actually seen them disparage a silent PC, I'll be more than happy to grant your point, but I'm going to have to ask for a quote.

*sighs*  Predictable.

No, you don't have to take a stab in the dark.  Just because it's not written in big bold letters across your computer screen doesn't mean they can't read reviews, gauge numerous forum reactions, question game testers, give out a survey, or hell just play the game for themselves.  It is not difficult to come up with the postives and negatives of something, even subjective as they might be.

So I assume that you've read the reviews, gauged tens of thousands of independent forum reactions, questioned game testers and given out surveys?

I'm not saying it's impossible in principle to do this. I'm saying you, the poster I am speaking to right now, most certainly hasn't done any of this, so whatever claim you're making about DA's audience and DA2's future prospects, well, that isn't justified at all.

Ok, I'm not sure you actually comprehend what I wrote.  First, I didn't say cut here and add there.  I said cut, period.

I'm talking about redesign, and cutting a 65 hour game to a 55 hour game. That's cut. How do you think the creative process works? Bioware comes up with this awesome game they want to make, then they cut 44% of it becuase they decided to add VO and sell it to you?

That's absurd. The full game is designed with the sort of resources available. Whether or not VO means they could add more content to DA2, making it an issue of content you're losing out on is just silly.

There wouldn't be a cut storyline and lengthened endgame.  If anything, EVERYTHING would be shortened. 

Have you ever had to work on a project before? If resources are limited, you don't choose to make everything 10% less good. You just cut out one major feature that is time intensive.

Second, it wouldn't really be the filler cut out - chanters board quests or long dungeon crawls.  It would be the story-heavy dialogue portions - anything which brings the VA over budget.  As in there is no longer a problem in Redcliffe, just with Eamon or there is no longer political intrigue in Orzammar, just the trip into the deep roads or there is no longer the darkspawn feint to Redcliffe at the end, there's just the Landsmeet (with most steps leading up to it gone) and then darkspawn are on the doorstep.

Ah, I see. You've worked to design a similar game like DA2. It's good that you're speaking from experience.

The budget for VO is not what will cut content. It's the budget for the cinematics. Look at the Witcher - PC VO, and yet they had a 60 hour game. Why? Because they didn't have to worry about resource intensive, highly scripted cinematics.

What will make DA2 shorter than DA:O is the intense investment in scripting for each particular cutscene Bioware wants to make. For every Ostagar, you could have 5 Redcliffe Castle quests.

The cost isn't VO per se - they could make the PC silent, if they keep the same sort of cinematic scripting, the cost and game is still just as short.

Origins is simple, yes.  And this simplicity is fully fleshed out.

No, it isn't . It's redundant and largely useless.

TL;DR

[krasnoarmeets]

How about a positive aspect thread? This continual whining starts to grate after a while...

[Schuback]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

How about a positive aspect thread? This continual whining starts to grate after a while...

Why you..

[AlanC9]

Freek on a Leesh wrote...

(snip)

TL;DR

So you quote the whole exchange to tell us that it's too long for you to read?

[b09boy]

In Exile wrote...

Bioware tends to be very good at keeping the party line, so to speak. You will find them speaking about any feature as the feature they wanted to develop, the appropriate feature for the game, and leave it open that they may change things for the future.

Their answer to including VO for DA:O when I was being very pushy for was essentially wha the response is here for silent VO: the appropriate tone for the game is silent/non-silent VO, it fits with the vision of what Bioware wants to do, everyone is excited to work on the project, etc. etc.

If you've actually seen them disparage a silent PC, I'll be more than happy to grant your point, but I'm going to have to ask for a quote.

I've seen Gaider and the like talk about how they prefer the voiced method and talk about how non-voiced does not matter as all responses are still written in stone.  If you want proof create a topic asking as much.  I'm not manually digging through months of quotes to find the ones I'm speaking of.

In Exile wrote...

So I assume that you've read the reviews, gauged tens of thousands of independent forum reactions, questioned game testers and given out surveys?

I'm not saying it's impossible in principle to do this. I'm saying you, the poster I am speaking to right now, most certainly hasn't done any of this, so whatever claim you're making about DA's audience and DA2's future prospects, well, that isn't justified at all.

It's not difficult to gauge what a community likes and dislikes about a product and why.  Thatyou think otherwise is kinda laughable.

In Exile wrote...

I'm talking about redesign, and cutting a 65 hour game to a 55 hour game. That's cut. How do you think the creative process works? Bioware comes up with this awesome game they want to make, then they cut 44% of it becuase they decided to add VO and sell it to you?

*blinks*  So I'm talking about how VA would strip large amounts of content and your response is to randomly go off on a tangent about how the story SHOULD have been told by hourly length.  Ok then.

In Exile wrote...

That's absurd. The full game is designed with the sort of resources available. Whether or not VO means they could add more content to DA2, making it an issue of content you're losing out on is just silly.

If you don't think there are enormous amounts of features devs wish they could have included left on the  table then you are fooling yourself in any big way.

In Exile wrote...

Have you ever had to work on a project before? If resources are limited, you don't choose to make everything 10% less good. You just cut out one major feature that is time intensive.

You still do not comprehend what I'm talking about.  It is very specific: dialogue.  You have to make cuts to it somewhere.

In Exile wrote...

Ah, I see. You've worked to design a similar game like DA2. It's good that you're speaking from experience.

The budget for VO is not what will cut content. It's the budget for the cinematics. Look at the Witcher - PC VO, and yet they had a 60 hour game. Why? Because they didn't have to worry about resource intensive, highly scripted cinematics.

You should learn what you're talking about before you speak

VA is a huge limiter.  Not only does audio take up a ton of space (to which a singular VA for a protagonist immediately doubles) there is a dollar amount per every word which needs to be translated and, especially, spoken.  Go over the preset limit of words by even a few hundred and suddenly it costs the company tens of thousands of dollars and precious disk space.

The Witcher, just FYI, wasn't translated to as many countries and, despite game length, does not contain the amount of dialogue as Origins.  Also, I don't know how you're getting a 60 hour game out of that.  I should also note that there is a reason there has yet to be a released game with a voiced protagonist which has even half the total content of Origins.

In Exile wrote...

What will make DA2 shorter than DA:O is the intense investment in scripting for each particular cutscene Bioware wants to make. For every Ostagar, you could have 5 Redcliffe Castle quests.

The cost isn't VO per se - they could make the PC silent, if they keep
the same sort of cinematic scripting, the cost and game is still just as
short.

  Not at all.  Wow.

In Exile wrote...

No, it isn't . It's redundant and largely useless.

Whatever you say, guy.

[AlanC9]

Isn't the VO space issue a red herring? Either you don't overflow the the first DVD, or you do. If you do you need a second disc, but discs are cheap. If you don't there's no issue at all.

[Bryy_Miller]

Saibh wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

At this point, I'd be suprised if BW didn't put 'Hot Rod Samurai' armor in the game as an easter egg.

I would love that.

I think it'd be fantastic. A cute reference that doesn't feel condescending or petty.

I would so scour the ends of the Earth for that. My playthrough would not be about beating the game, it would be about finding the fabled armor of the Gods.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 15 novembre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Meltemph]

It's not difficult to gauge what a community likes and dislikes about a product and why. Thatyou think otherwise is kinda laughable.

There are people in a lot of industries who get payed 6 digit figures to do the sort of thing you are talking about, that is "so easy"... Maybe you should go into market forecasting, sounds like you would be a savant.

[b09boy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Isn't the VO space issue a red herring? Either you don't overflow the the first DVD, or you do. If you do you need a second disc, but discs are cheap. If you don't there's no issue at all.

For space, it's not an especially large issue until you really start going overboard.  And yeah, disks are cheap, but they still add up and doubling up on anything when it's being produced in the millions isn't going to be the most popular decision to throw at your publisher.  Note also the amount of content present in ME2 compared to DAO.  ME2 covered two disks yet had MAYBE half the content.  And that was just with the two VAs for protagonists.  It wouldn't go over especially well with fans, publishers or the people designating what goes on what disk if you're just throwing space to the wind and going nuts.

Reality is, though, you'll more than likely run into budget issues before space issues. ME2 was a rather peculiar exception to this.

[Meltemph]

Note also the amount of content present in ME2 compared to DAO.

That has a hell of a lot more to do with the nature of the different products, then VO.

And yeah, disks are cheap, but they still add up and doubling up on anything when it's being produced in the millions isn't going to be the most popular decision to throw at your publisher.

Speaking for a company, based on nothing but your own perceptions, is never a good idea.  Rarely are the operations in a company as transparent as they seem.

ME2 covered two disks yet had MAYBE half the content. And that was just with the two VAs for protagonists.

Audio is pretty easy to zip into very small pieces until you actually install the game, you are overstating the difficulty, why, I don't know. It would make more sense that that graphics/cinematic's/AI/Animations are the main reason for the CD's.

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[In Exile]

b09boy wrote...
I've seen Gaider and the like talk about how they prefer the voiced method and talk about how non-voiced does not matter as all responses are still written in stone.  If you want proof create a topic asking as much.  I'm not manually digging through months of quotes to find the ones I'm speaking of.

Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. You made a strong claim: that the writers prefer VO to non-VO, and this is a significant influence in the design change for DA2. That may well be justified, but you have to back up you claim. It's not my job to see if you're telling the truth or not.

It's not difficult to gauge what a community likes and dislikes about a product and why.  Thatyou think otherwise is kinda laughable.

When did I say it was difficult? Once again, I said you didn't do any market research, so you can't make any claims about the preferences of the DA:O fanbase. Capiche?

*blinks*  So I'm talking about how VA would strip large amounts of content and your response is to randomly go off on a tangent about how the story SHOULD have been told by hourly length.  Ok then.

No, I made the claim that length is not some kind of objective good. I made the claim that Dragon Age would have been a better game if features had been explicitly cut, in a massive way. I then clarified my claim by saying I thought the game should have had a different form, to justify why I think a 45 hour game is superior to a 65.

Your claim was that VO is a negative, because it means less content. My claim was that less content would make a game better, i.e. a direct counter to your point. Keep pace.

If you don't think there are enormous amounts of features devs wish they could have included left on the  table then you are fooling yourself in any big way.

What are you even talking about? You said VA means features are cut. I countered by saying that's obfuscation - if I buy your argument that VO is more costly and so resources are reduced overall, that doesn't mean features are cut. That's just misleading, because the game would always be designed to b appropriate to the available resources.

Of course, you could counter with less content = bad, but then we're right back to debating your specious claim that a longer game is better.

You still do not comprehend what I'm talking about.  It is very specific: dialogue.  You have to make cuts to it somewhere.

No, you don't comprehend the point. If you're making the game from scratch, you're not cutting anything. You just build a game appropriate to your available resources, i.e. you build an entire self-contained story within the resource requirement.

Mass Effect had 4 story worlds. Maybe without VO it could have had 6. But that doesn't mean 2 planets were cut; it means they were never thought up in the first place, because of resource limitations.

You should learn what you're talking about before you speak

VA is a huge limiter.  Not only does audio take up a ton of space (to which a singular VA for a protagonist immediately doubles) there is a dollar amount per every word which needs to be translated and, especially, spoken.  Go over the preset limit of words by even a few hundred and suddenly it costs the company tens of thousands of dollars and precious disk space.

This is an entirely different argument. Now you're talking about the cost of localization. Which, of course, is perfectly irrelevant.

DA:O was, you might shockingly recal, localized in several foreign languages. Let's suppose DA2 has the same amount of VO (with more geared toward the player and less toward the NPCs). You know what that boils down to, re: the final cost of translation? Absolutely nothing, because the amount to be translated didn't change.

Unless you're going to argue that DA2, with PC VO, will have more spoken dialogue than DA? But that would mean you're arguing it has more content, and surely that isn't the case.

The Witcher, just FYI, wasn't translated to as many countries and, despite game length, does not contain the amount of dialogue as Origins.  Also, I don't know how you're getting a 60 hour game out of that.  I should also note that there is a reason there has yet to be a released game with a voiced protagonist which has even half the total content of Origins.

You know what game had the content of DA:O and was released to many foreign countries? DA:O. So long as the overall VO work isn't greater in DA2 versus DA:O, the cost of localization is identical.

Now, you might well make the argument that VO in DA2 will reduce the content of the game from a design standpoint, but this specious translation argument has no bearing.

  Not at all.  Wow.

Ah, so we're playing ''giving up for lack of a better answer''. Fun.

Whatever you say, guy.

White flag it is, I suppose.

[b09boy]

Meltemph wrote...

There are people in a lot of industries who get payed 6 digit figures to do the sort of thing you are talking about, that is "so easy"... Maybe you should go into market forecasting, sounds like you would be a savant.

People like that go far beyond the bare bone basics I'm talking about.  They can determine the age, gender, income level, employment and populations on top of 'this is good, this is bad'.  But you can very easily read through the list of proffessional reviews on gamerankings and user reviews on gamefaqs, browse a couple forums here and there, browse through some of the polls posted about the game and dtermine what people like and why.  Nothing will be universal and you have to have enough sense to differentiate between a person interested in some level in the genre and a person who simply fell for a marketing tool and are in over their head, but you can get a pretty good idea of what works.

[Meltemph]

But you can very easily read through the list of proffessional reviews on gamerankings and user reviews on gamefaqs, browse a couple forums here and there, browse through some of the polls posted about the game and dtermine what people like and why.

No it is not that simple to be able to dictate, even to a limited degree, what people desire , from a certain group are. You sound more like you are trying to speak for everyone, based on your preconceptions, either that or you are trying to feign an air of expertise on the matter.

Nothing will be universal and you have to have enough sense to differentiate between a person interested in some level in the genre and a person who simply fell for a marketing tool and are in over their head, but you can get a pretty good idea of what works.

Where did you get the idea... wait, I'm sorry, where did you "learn", what you just said is correct?

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[b09boy]

Right. Whatever you say, guys. I don't really feel like spending hours on an endless argument just because you don't feel like connecting dots which might disrupt your view of a company. Want to play ignorant, go for it. Pretend I actually don't have any clue what I'm talking about while ignoring your obvious lack of any and all knowledge of a development process or marketing. Hey, maybe you're right and I don't have any experience in the subject. We all know you don't though.

[Meltemph]

Right. Whatever you say, guys. I don't really feel like spending hours on an endless argument just because you don't feel like connecting dots which might disrupt your view of a company.

Your "dot collecting/connecting" is something closer to gossip.

Pretend I actually don't have any clue what I'm talking about while ignoring your obvious lack of any and all knowledge of a development process or marketing. Hey, maybe you're right and I don't have any experience in the subject. We all know you don't though.

So you were trying to feign expertise on the matter, great. You presume you have more qualifications on a subject, because you deem yourself to have it, while at the same time, showing your bias toward certain products and the specifics of them.

VO could very well shorten the game, but to what extent and to what actually gets cut is nothing but guessing. Trying to argue a degrade in quality because of a feature you don't think is as important, as a fact, is just silly.

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[Ichogo]

My basic concern is that they are taking the customization out of it.

It's almost like they are making a Mass effect fantasy style.

I remember when you could choose what race you are in Origins, and defend their rights.And then, in ME, your forced to protect the humans.

This probably is gonna happen in DA2 too. Now, I am leaning to the belief that they are making more of a Action game than an RPG

[2papercuts]

Ichogo wrote...
It's almost like they are making a Mass effect fantasy style.

its actually looks closer to Fable Age: Mass Adventures 

[Nerivant]

2papercuts wrote...

Ichogo wrote...
It's almost like they are making a Mass effect fantasy style.

its actually looks closer to Fable Age: Mass Adventures 

Fable Age: Mass for Speed, Legend of the Mortal Combat: Evolved.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I always preferred Massage myself. I like to streamline all aspects, even names.

[AlanC9]

Ichogo wrote...

My basic concern is that they are taking the customization out of it.
It's almost like they are making a Mass effect fantasy style.
I remember when you could choose what race you are in Origins, and defend their rights.And then, in ME, your forced to protect the humans.
This probably is gonna happen in DA2 too. Now, I am leaning to the belief that they are making more of a Action game than an RPG

I'm not sure if I'm amused or annoyed by this sort of thing. DAO had a multiple-origins feature that only one other CRPG in history ever had as far as I remember, and not doing that again in DA2 means it isn't an RPG?

Edit: make that two other games, since Star Saga 1 and 2 featured the same characters.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[bsbcaer]

Ichogo wrote...

My basic concern is that they are taking the customization out of it.
It's almost like they are making a Mass effect fantasy style.
I remember when you could choose what race you are in Origins, and defend their rights.And then, in ME, your forced to protect the humans.
This probably is gonna happen in DA2 too. Now, I am leaning to the belief that they are making more of a Action game than an RPG

Allow me to ask.  Outside of race, specifically what concerns regarding customization do you have?  What are you concerned that they have taken out that allows you to customize your character?

[tmp7704]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm not sure if I'm amused or annoyed by this sort of thing. DAO had a multiple-origins feature that only one other CRPG in history ever had as far as I remember, and not doing that again in DA2 means it isn't an RPG?

To be fair he's also listing the ability itself to pick player's race as part of customization, and that's something provided by far more than only one other CRPG in history.

[AlanC9]

Freek on a Leesh wrote...
TL;DR

Can someone explain what the point is of quoting a large block of text only to add that?

[Maria Caliban]

AlanC9 wrote...

Freek on a Leesh wrote...

(snip)

TL;DR

So you quote the whole exchange to tell us that it's too long for you to read?

AlanC9 wrote...

Freek on a Leesh wrote...
TL;DR

Can someone explain what the point is of quoting a large block of text only to add that?

I get the feeling Alan didn't approve of Freek on a Leesh's post.