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[Shadow Wing]

I commented about this in the "Concerns and things you dont like...." topic so thought maybe it should have its own thread...What do you guys think of this? Personally I was really disappointed when I found out that you can only play as a human. I mean I'm still looking forward to this game but one of the highlights for me in origins was the ability to play different races and have different sides.

The two big reason I dislike this limitation is first you lose a bit of flexibility in repleability in the game. But that can be managed if the game is really interesting. Secondly, I worked hard on my origins saved games so that I made a particular race/faction a bit stronger  or something, I hoped that it would be transferable to the first game. From what I understand, decisions are still carried over to the second game but without the ability to play the other races, you don't seem to benefit from it. I mean playing only as a human, I would assume that you would be defending the human factions most of the time which is annoying since on my saved games I purposely made the decision to benefit other races aside from humans. But now that kinda disappears though. It also means you can't side with other factions now. I had the same problem in Mass effect actually, sometimes I actually agreed with the other races but since I was playing a human, I was supposed to defend humans.

[Stanley Woo]

Dodok wrote...
Anyway I'm waiting for Bioware to give me a good dwarven reason for this lack of races in DA2.

A wizard did it.

[David Gaider]

Drasanil wrote...
You mean 4 extra models for races that are already there in game? That's a load of bull and you know it, we already know there are dwarves and elves in game they just decided to cut out your ability to play as one and honestly if mods are anything to go by resizing armor really isn't all that hard.

Whooo there goes another kitten. Tsk.

Honestly, people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't make such sweeping statements.

Consider what you already know: the PC is the only character who is going to be actively swapping multiple armor models throughout the game. If you're only looking for one reason, there it is-- and it's no small one. And "resizing" the armor is simplifying the issue... it's work, and multiplied across all equippable armors in the game, times 2. We could do that work, but where would you like it to come from? Which enemy creatures, follower appearances and NPC armor models would you like to cut? None, I assume, but there are limited resources to divide considering the short timeframe we have to make the game.

Just add more time? Yes, that would be nice-- but that's not what we're doing. We could make a smaller game or have less variety in appearances for the PC, I suppose, but the trade-off has to come from somewhere.

And that's only if you look at this one aspect. There are others. I don't expect you to know them, or even care about them really, but if you don't I wouldn't suggest speaking out of ignorance either and chalking up a decision you don't like to laziness on our part. At the very least, have compassion for the kittens.

[David Gaider]

Shadow Wing wrote...
I perfectly understand and agree, and I can certainly see why having a single type of race for the main character would be better for the developers and the game itself but it does bring up an earlier question I had, does this mean future dragon age games would now only have human-only main characters?

Not necessarily. It depends on the time and resources we have available for the project in question and where we want to spend them. The decision for DA2 was both a resource-based and creative decision, but we're not saying "this is the DA standard from this point on"-- not for anything. It works for this project.

Would Bioware even consider having say an elf as the protagonist?

You mean as a sole protaganist? Sure, I suppose, if we were telling a very elf-centric tale. That could even be really cool. Someone would be apt to point out that only 15% of people who played DAO ever played an elf, but I'm sure they had fun and the added emphasis we could place on the elves aspect might be really appealing. You can't do everything by the numbers.

[David Gaider]

Davasar wrote...
But you know...that would be a terrible idea right?

I think so, yes, but that's probably because I attach less value to the prospect of merely having an alternate physical appearance-- the player being elven or dwarven even though there is absolutely nothing else that is elven or dwarven about them. That sounds like an awesome reason to do all that extra work on the armor models, sure.

Of course, it sounds like you apply a lot of importance to any kind of variety in the player's appearance. That's great. The idea that the only reason we might decide to focus our efforts elsewhere is because we're either lazy or because someone came in and forced us to shows the amount of your personal bias. Not much else.

[David Gaider]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
I think most people who are interested in ROLE PLAYING games attatch a lot of importance on being able to define their character.

I guess that really depends on whether you defeine ROLE PLAYING as being able to play anyone you can imagine. I don't think everyone does, nor do all roleplaying games... some of which are still pretty good, and offer lots of choices.

I think it would also be a mistake for someone to exaggerate and say that not being able to select your race means not being able to define your character at all. It's not true, yet some folks seem to enjoy engaging in reductio ad absurdum as if that makes their point more valid. I think we all get that some people place more importance on appearance choices, even if they are purely cosmetic. That does not make it the "true roleplayer's" perogative.

[David Gaider]

Wulfram wrote...
It's also a mistake to say that wanting to have more choice than to play a human with a sister called Bethany, a brother called Carver and who talks like a particular voice actor means defining roleplaying as playing anyone you can imagine.  But I guess some people enjoy creating strawmen as if that makes their point more valid

Who's making that argument? I was talking about physical appearances. If someone's problem is that they have their role in the game defined to the point of having family members and such, they're barking up the wrong tree completely. You can make that argument if you like, but this isn't that game and won't ever be. So... good luck with that, I guess.

[David Gaider]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Not to be a douche but do you think it may have been because the human noble origin was way more integral to the plot than the elf origins.  The human noble was the special origin complete with the option to become a monarch of Ferelden.  The Dalish origin by contrast sucked and was almost indistinguishable from the city elf save a few things like having to kill Tamlen and not being threatened by Mithra.  In other words, you made it so that only 15% of the people would play as an elf although it was probably unintentional. 

Even if I accept what you say about the human noble origin as true (and I'm not sure that I do), is it your suggestion that most or even a significant number of the people who played DAO had the knowledge to know about the human noble origin's significance to the overall story before they selected it?

To be honest, I suspect that kind of meta-information is something that's specific to people who hang out on forums a whole lot.

[David Gaider]

silentassassin264 wrote...
It really didn't take meta-ing information.  My first character I made was a city elf because when I saw the trailer and stuff for that origin, it really seemed to resonate with me.  I played through the origin story and through Ostagar but as I went through after that, I steadily lost interest.  My city elf could not even go back into the alienage to see her family.  She is tasked with dealing with a bunch of human noble politics which she really doesn't care for especially since she was kidnapped by one and her cousin is raped by the same one.  I got bored of being compelled to do things my character would not have done (as I said I would have broken back into the alienage immediately).  

This disinterest caused me to try other origins.  The first one that I could actually feel engrossed in was the human noble (before I had tried mage, dalish, and dwarf noble).  Considering the guy who wiped out my family was working all along with the guy who through Ferelden into chaos was a great motivator.  It also helped that I actually had an allegiance to Ferelden being in the second royal family of Ferelden.  As you can tell from this, the first origin I actually finished the game with was the human noble.  For people who only finish the game once, they would have probably encountered the same thing I did and just opted to play human noble.  I did not look up any extra information on the game on the internet or anything until after my first playthrough was done.

Okay... so you use this thinking as the basis to challenge what? The idea that only 15% of people ever played an elf because the human noble was so important? Never mind that the vast majority never finished the game or tried it more than once to go and agree with your line of thinking that they needed to play the human noble origin to get their "optimal" playthrough?

Sorry. Don't buy it. Not sure why you're selling it, either.

[Stanley Woo]

Weiser_Cain wrote...
 Wait, are you saying companions are stuck in their original costume for the whole game? That's horrible! How is that not lazyness?

Sorry, I was working until 11pm last night and wasn't the last one out of the office. what was that you were saying about laziness?

[Stanley Woo]

Adanu wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Adanu wrote...
David, people play role playing games with motivations in mind. What makes my character want to do anything? The human noble, whether you agree with it or not, has a *lot* more motivation for dealing in Fereldan politics. The rest feel stale in comparison. if you don't want to admit that your team did not put as much motivational stuff into all the other origins, that is fine, but we still see it differently, and *we* are the ones who buy the game.

Please speak for yourself and drop the "we."

Please drop the semantic crap and learn that we means people who buy the game.

Please dont' be rude to fellow community members, and remember that for every "you" who has an opinion about the game, there thousands who are not "you." Addai67 is requesting that you not speak for everyone who bought the game, a group which, presumably, also includes Addai67.

And "you" should consider that the game isn't as unbalanced as your sensationalist hyperbole makes it sound. the human noble has an additional motivation for dealing in Fereldan politics: he's a human noble who was dispossessed by Howe. Done.

Everyone else has the same reasons for dealing in Fereldan politics: to get support from the Landsmeet against the darkspawn. this does not mean we put any more or less work or thought into non-human noble origins. in fact, we worked even harder on non-human nobles so their stories would feel and play just as well as human nobles.

Whether you agree with it or not, the dwarf noble has a *lot* more motivation in dealing with Orzammar politics.
Whether you agree with it or not, the dalish elf has a *lot* more motivation in dealing with the werewolves in the Brcilian Forest.
Whether you agree with it ot not, the Circle mage has a *lot* more motivation in dealing with the Chantry politics.
Whether you agree with it or not, the city elf has a *lot* more motivation in dealing with Denerim politics.
Whether you agree with it or not, the dwarf commoner has a *lot* more motivation in dealing with the Orzammar carta.

You are free to disagree with us. discussion from a bunch of different perspectives is certainly one reason this community and this forum exists. But please don't believe that yours is the most popular, best, or only opinion being discussed. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Even within Lothering, there are probably many families. Why apostate outcastes from Ferelden nobility?

Maybe this question is answered in the game?

[Stanley Woo]

i know. Life is hard.