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[Chaos Lord Malek]

This would`t be such problem, if the main character would`t be just generic human. I am not saying it can`t be some super god avatar reborn, etc... But to me this is so far the only 'down' i seen on game.



I am not really asking for option to chose from characters, but maybe Bioware could consider for future product to give us a character that is completely unique - like the Planescape Torment for instance has.



This means that the character would be some special race, with unique look (still customizable and both genders). Like you could be some half-race, like a half-dragon or half-qunari, or some completely new race, or maybe like a mention PT - you could be playing an undead, maybe a vampire and that you would be ressurected at the start of game for some purpose. And of course your hero, would thus gain some special abilities and talents, just like now companions are getting.

[David Gaider]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
I think most people who are interested in ROLE PLAYING games attatch a lot of importance on being able to define their character.

I guess that really depends on whether you defeine ROLE PLAYING as being able to play anyone you can imagine. I don't think everyone does, nor do all roleplaying games... some of which are still pretty good, and offer lots of choices.

I think it would also be a mistake for someone to exaggerate and say that not being able to select your race means not being able to define your character at all. It's not true, yet some folks seem to enjoy engaging in reductio ad absurdum as if that makes their point more valid. I think we all get that some people place more importance on appearance choices, even if they are purely cosmetic. That does not make it the "true roleplayer's" perogative.

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...

I guess that really depends on whether you defeine ROLE PLAYING as being able to play anyone you can imagine. I don't think everyone does, nor do all roleplaying games... some of which are still pretty good, and offer lots of choices.

I think it would also be a mistake for someone to exaggerate and say that not being able to select your race means not being able to define your character at all. It's not true, yet some folks seem to enjoy engaging in reductio ad absurdum as if that makes their point more valid. I think we all get that some people place more importance on appearance choices, even if they are purely cosmetic. That does not make it the "true roleplayer's" perogative.

Still, it's a pity that you turned the expectations of Dwarven an Elven culture head over heels and decide not to capitalize on it on the sequel. That's wasted potential.

Modifié par Xewaka, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
I think most people who are interested in ROLE PLAYING games attatch a lot of importance on being able to define their character.

I guess that really depends on whether you defeine ROLE PLAYING as being able to play anyone you can imagine. I don't think everyone does, nor do all roleplaying games... some of which are still pretty good, and offer lots of choices.

I think it would also be a mistake for someone to exaggerate and say that not being able to select your race means not being able to define your character at all. It's not true, yet some folks seem to enjoy engaging in reductio ad absurdum as if that makes their point more valid. I think we all get that some people place more importance on appearance choices, even if they are purely cosmetic. That does not make it the "true roleplayer's" perogative.

I agree 100% with this--except the part about it being reductio ad absurdum.  It's more hyperbole.

The only thing I really have to say to this argument is, give it a try.  I, personally, love playing with the paper dolls and customization and fiddling with my character.  I'm extremely reluctant to play a game if I can't choose to play a female character.  I come on the forum and start threads complaining that I don't like the necks on the female models.  (No, really I do.)

Yet, I've played some really awesome games that didn't let me do ANY of the things I like.  Some of my FAVORITE GAMES OF ALL TIME didn't let me do ANY of that stuff.  Some of my favorite movies sounded spectacularly cheesy when I heard about them the first time.  Almost ALL of my favorite books are ones that I was reluctant to read at first and only got to eventually because I was seriously bored and had nothing else to read.

Things that don't adhere to the formula are often the best things in life.

[Ziggeh]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
I agree 100% with this--except the part about it being reductio ad absurdum.

In fairness, I love engaging in that.

[Maria Caliban]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Things that don't adhere to the formula are often the best things in life.

So, let's talk about codex entries and how they break the 'rule' that exposition should be minimal and unobtrusive.

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
I think most people who are interested in ROLE PLAYING games attatch a lot of importance on being able to define their character.

I guess that really depends on whether you defeine ROLE PLAYING as being able to play anyone you can imagine. I don't think everyone does, nor do all roleplaying games... some of which are still pretty good, and offer lots of choices.

I think it would also be a mistake for someone to exaggerate and say that not being able to select your race means not being able to define your character at all. It's not true, yet some folks seem to enjoy engaging in reductio ad absurdum as if that makes their point more valid. I think we all get that some people place more importance on appearance choices, even if they are purely cosmetic. That does not make it the "true roleplayer's" perogative.

It's also a mistake to say that wanting to have more choice than to play a human with a sister called Bethany, a brother called Carver and who talks like a particular voice actor means defining roleplaying as playing anyone you can imagine.  But I guess some people enjoy creating strawmen as if that makes their point more valid

[silentassassin264]

David Gaider wrote...
Would Bioware even consider having say an elf as the protagonist?


You mean as a sole protaganist? Sure, I suppose, if we were telling a very elf-centric tale. That could even be really cool. Someone would be apt to point out that only 15% of people who played DAO ever played an elf, but I'm sure they had fun and the added emphasis we could place on the elves aspect might be really appealing. You can't do everything by the numbers.

Not to be a douche but do you think it may have been because the human noble origin was way more integral to the plot than the elf origins.  The human noble was the special origin complete with the option to become a monarch of Ferelden.  The Dalish origin by contrast sucked and was almost indistinguishable from the city elf save a few things like having to kill Tamlen and not being threatened by Mithra.  In other words, you made it so that only 15% of the people would play as an elf although it was probably unintentional. 

[David Gaider]

Wulfram wrote...
It's also a mistake to say that wanting to have more choice than to play a human with a sister called Bethany, a brother called Carver and who talks like a particular voice actor means defining roleplaying as playing anyone you can imagine.  But I guess some people enjoy creating strawmen as if that makes their point more valid

Who's making that argument? I was talking about physical appearances. If someone's problem is that they have their role in the game defined to the point of having family members and such, they're barking up the wrong tree completely. You can make that argument if you like, but this isn't that game and won't ever be. So... good luck with that, I guess.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Things that don't adhere to the formula are often the best things in life.

So, let's talk about codex entries and how they break the 'rule' that exposition should be minimal and unobtrusive.

*Sigh*  I never said exposition should be MINIMAL or UNOBTRUSIVE.  I said that a true virtuoso cunningly weaves it into the story in such a way that the reader/player is not *consciously* aware of it as exposition.  Relying on a codex is severely lacking panache, much like other bits of gimcrackery like breaking the fourth wall or making callbacks to cheesy cult movies.  I like geek pandering as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean I want my favorite storytellers to languish in mediocrity forever for MY sake.

I'm like, 70 pages into my novel at this point and I'm nowhere near the end of the "exposition" section.  I'd hardly call that "minimal".  But the topic I'm trying to write about basically requires that kind of treatment.

[David Gaider]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Not to be a douche but do you think it may have been because the human noble origin was way more integral to the plot than the elf origins.  The human noble was the special origin complete with the option to become a monarch of Ferelden.  The Dalish origin by contrast sucked and was almost indistinguishable from the city elf save a few things like having to kill Tamlen and not being threatened by Mithra.  In other words, you made it so that only 15% of the people would play as an elf although it was probably unintentional. 

Even if I accept what you say about the human noble origin as true (and I'm not sure that I do), is it your suggestion that most or even a significant number of the people who played DAO had the knowledge to know about the human noble origin's significance to the overall story before they selected it?

To be honest, I suspect that kind of meta-information is something that's specific to people who hang out on forums a whole lot.

[Nerivant]

David Gaider wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Not to be a douche but do you think it may have been because the human noble origin was way more integral to the plot than the elf origins.  The human noble was the special origin complete with the option to become a monarch of Ferelden.  The Dalish origin by contrast sucked and was almost indistinguishable from the city elf save a few things like having to kill Tamlen and not being threatened by Mithra.  In other words, you made it so that only 15% of the people would play as an elf although it was probably unintentional. 

Even if I accept what you say about the human noble origin as true (and I'm not sure that I do), is it your suggestion that most or even a significant number of the people who played DAO had the knowledge to know about the human noble origin's significance to the overall story before they selected it?

To be honest, I suspect that kind of meta-information is something that's specific to people who hang out on forums a whole lot.

Is there a percentage hiding somewhere of Human Nobles that actually became king during their playthroughs?

[PsychoBlonde]

silentassassin264 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Would Bioware even consider having say an elf as the protagonist?


You mean as a sole protaganist? Sure, I suppose, if we were telling a very elf-centric tale. That could even be really cool. Someone would be apt to point out that only 15% of people who played DAO ever played an elf, but I'm sure they had fun and the added emphasis we could place on the elves aspect might be really appealing. You can't do everything by the numbers.

Not to be a douche but do you think it may have been because the human noble origin was way more integral to the plot than the elf origins.  The human noble was the special origin complete with the option to become a monarch of Ferelden.  The Dalish origin by contrast sucked and was almost indistinguishable from the city elf save a few things like having to kill Tamlen and not being threatened by Mithra.  In other words, you made it so that only 15% of the people would play as an elf although it was probably unintentional. 

The only reason I didn't really get into the elves and dwarves was because I preferred how the humans looked.  If I could have played the Dwarf Noble origin and still looked like a human, I would have been in heavan.  So speak for yourself.

[Addai]

silentassassin264 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Would Bioware even consider having say an elf as the protagonist?


You mean as a sole protaganist? Sure, I suppose, if we were telling a very elf-centric tale. That could even be really cool. Someone would be apt to point out that only 15% of people who played DAO ever played an elf, but I'm sure they had fun and the added emphasis we could place on the elves aspect might be really appealing. You can't do everything by the numbers.

Not to be a douche but do you think it may have been because the human noble origin was way more integral to the plot than the elf origins.  The human noble was the special origin complete with the option to become a monarch of Ferelden.  The Dalish origin by contrast sucked and was almost indistinguishable from the city elf save a few things like having to kill Tamlen and not being threatened by Mithra.  In other words, you made it so that only 15% of the people would play as an elf although it was probably unintentional. 

Eh.  That assumes that everyone picking up the game knows that about the noble origin, and how would they know the plot ahead of time?  I just think a lot of people picked a sort of vanilla character for a first run.  However, it does seem like a pretty human story, with the kingship of Ferelden being a central game issue.  Plus (I assume) a lot of people don't like playing an underdog, as the elves are, and dwarves have the physical awkwardness.

Since we're talking about having the option to play a different race than human, the bit about city elf and Dalish doesn't make sense.  People react to you being an elf.  Very few Fereldans would differentiate between a city elf and a Dalish elf (sadly Lloyd is the most clued in LOL).

Modifié par Addai67, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:35 .

[silentassassin264]

David Gaider wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Not to be a douche but do you think it may have been because the human noble origin was way more integral to the plot than the elf origins.  The human noble was the special origin complete with the option to become a monarch of Ferelden.  The Dalish origin by contrast sucked and was almost indistinguishable from the city elf save a few things like having to kill Tamlen and not being threatened by Mithra.  In other words, you made it so that only 15% of the people would play as an elf although it was probably unintentional. 

Even if I accept what you say about the human noble origin as true (and I'm not sure that I do), is it your suggestion that most or even a significant number of the people who played DAO had the knowledge to know about the human noble origin's significance to the overall story before they selected it?

To be honest, I suspect that kind of meta-information is something that's specific to people who hang out on forums a whole lot.

It really didn't take meta-ing information.  My first character I made was a city elf because when I saw the trailer and stuff for that origin, it really seemed to resonate with me.  I played through the origin story and through Ostagar but as I went through after that, I steadily lost interest.  My city elf could not even go back into the alienage to see her family.  She is tasked with dealing with a bunch of human noble politics which she really doesn't care for especially since she was kidnapped by one and her cousin is raped by the same one.  I got bored of being compelled to do things my character would not have done (as I said I would have broken back into the alienage immediately).  

This disinterest caused me to try other origins.  The first one that I could actually feel engrossed in was the human noble (before I had tried mage, dalish, and dwarf noble).  Considering the guy who wiped out my family was working all along with the guy who through Ferelden into chaos was a great motivator.  It also helped that I actually had an allegiance to Ferelden being in the second royal family of Ferelden.  As you can tell from this, the first origin I actually finished the game with was the human noble.  For people who only finish the game once, they would have probably encountered the same thing I did and just opted to play human noble.  I did not look up any extra information on the game on the internet or anything until after my first playthrough was done.

Addai67 wrote...

Since we're talking about having the option to play a different race than human, the bit about city elf and Dalish doesn't make sense.  People react to you being an elf.  Very few Fereldans would differentiate between a city elf and a Dalish elf (sadly Lloyd is the most clued in LOL).

That is the point.  The other origins blurred into you are a generic nobody and your specific origin meant nothing outside of the prologue and Orzammar for the dwarf and Dalish camp/alienage for elves.  If you play a human noble versus a human mage, you reception is drastically different from npcs.  

Modifié par silentassassin264, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:42 .

[Addai]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

This would`t be such problem, if the main character would`t be just generic human. I am not saying it can`t be some super god avatar reborn, etc... But to me this is so far the only 'down' i seen on game.

I think having a protagonist who we know is from an apostate mage family (even if not a mage himself) does give Hawke a bit of uniqueness.

Not that I won't miss being able to play an elf...

Modifié par Addai67, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Maria Caliban]

PsychoBlonde wrote...


*Sigh*  I never said exposition should be MINIMAL or UNOBTRUSIVE.  I said that a true virtuoso cunningly weaves it into the story in such a way that the reader/player is not *consciously* aware of it as exposition. 

Weaving information into the story so that the reader isn't even aware they're being given information is pretty unobtrusive. And probably minimal. And impossible with a reader or player that has any critical thinking skills.

That said, would you agree that good writing need not be virtuoso writing?

Addai67 wrote...

Not that I'm not mourning not being able to play elf...

How bold.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:45 .

[AlanC9]

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
I think most people who are interested in ROLE PLAYING games attatch a lot of importance on being able to define their character.

I guess that really depends on whether you defeine ROLE PLAYING as being able to play anyone you can imagine. I don't think everyone does, nor do all roleplaying games... some of which are still pretty good, and offer lots of choices.

I think it would also be a mistake for someone to exaggerate and say that not being able to select your race means not being able to define your character at all. It's not true, yet some folks seem to enjoy engaging in reductio ad absurdum as if that makes their point more valid. I think we all get that some people place more importance on appearance choices, even if they are purely cosmetic. That does not make it the "true roleplayer's" perogative.

It's also a mistake to say that wanting to have more choice than to play a human with a sister called Bethany, a brother called Carver and who talks like a particular voice actor means defining roleplaying as playing anyone you can imagine.  But I guess some people enjoy creating strawmen as if that makes their point more valid

Please. Look what DG was responding to. If Grumpy Old Wizard can't or won't limit what he means by "define," it isn't our business to do it for him.

[lv12medic]

I like being able to choose a race and stuff when making a character, but unfortunately it only becomes a significant choice when I play Pen and Paper RPG's.  I think DA:O handled multiple orgins and races fairly well; it tried to add unique flare depending on your race and origin.  But in the end, most of DA:O generalized you as "The Warden" and paid no heed to race or origin or gender or anything.  The way I see DA2 is that it, in terms of story telling (which is Bioware's primary selling point) being restricted to Human allows the story to be much more engaging in terms of who you are, the way the world interacts with you, and may make a more unique playing experience than playing many races in a generalized world like in DA:O.
It is fun to get into the head of say a Dalish Elf when dealing with Chantry people or something, but you walk into the Chantry and everyone pays you no heed and says, "Maker guide you Warden."  I have a bloody Dalish Elf face tattoo on my character for crying out loud.

Also, being restricted to Human this game doesn't mean we won't be able to ever play a dwarf or elf again.  Maybe even qunari?  Just not in DA2.  DA2 DLC on the other hand... like Leillana's Song... mmm... possibilities.

[David Gaider]

silentassassin264 wrote...
It really didn't take meta-ing information.  My first character I made was a city elf because when I saw the trailer and stuff for that origin, it really seemed to resonate with me.  I played through the origin story and through Ostagar but as I went through after that, I steadily lost interest.  My city elf could not even go back into the alienage to see her family.  She is tasked with dealing with a bunch of human noble politics which she really doesn't care for especially since she was kidnapped by one and her cousin is raped by the same one.  I got bored of being compelled to do things my character would not have done (as I said I would have broken back into the alienage immediately).  

This disinterest caused me to try other origins.  The first one that I could actually feel engrossed in was the human noble (before I had tried mage, dalish, and dwarf noble).  Considering the guy who wiped out my family was working all along with the guy who through Ferelden into chaos was a great motivator.  It also helped that I actually had an allegiance to Ferelden being in the second royal family of Ferelden.  As you can tell from this, the first origin I actually finished the game with was the human noble.  For people who only finish the game once, they would have probably encountered the same thing I did and just opted to play human noble.  I did not look up any extra information on the game on the internet or anything until after my first playthrough was done.

Okay... so you use this thinking as the basis to challenge what? The idea that only 15% of people ever played an elf because the human noble was so important? Never mind that the vast majority never finished the game or tried it more than once to go and agree with your line of thinking that they needed to play the human noble origin to get their "optimal" playthrough?

Sorry. Don't buy it. Not sure why you're selling it, either.

[Aermas]

& here I was thinking that the Mage origin had the best playthrough. With your whole uniqueness, & your best friend (for the most part) being a Templar & romancing Morrigan to have a super mage god-baby. You interact with the Circle Tower, Redcliff story more, too

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

Never mind that the vast majority never finished the game or tried it more than once to go and agree with your line of thinking that they needed to play the human noble origin to get their "optimal" playthrough?

Whoa! Seriously?

The 'vast majority' never finished the game?

[Drasanil]

David Gaider wrote...
Whooo there goes another kitten. Tsk.

Good thing I don't like cats, I'm a dog person myself

Honestly, people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't make such sweeping statements.

Maybe, however based on previous experience namely NWN, NWN2, DAO it didn't seem to be an issue. Furthermore, you have Bethesda which managed to create games and toolsets where resizing a given armor was as simple as changing a few decimal points in a race's hieght and wieght stats. So it can't be all that hard.

Consider what you already know: the PC is the only character who is going to be actively swapping multiple armor models throughout the game. If you're only looking for one reason, there it is-- and it's no small one. And "resizing" the armor is simplifying the issue... it's work, and multiplied across all equippable armors in the game, times 2. We could do that work, but where would you like it to come from?

Given the above, it does seem like a rather flimsy pretext for cutting out two races which were previously featured in game. Heck you could even have race restricted armors, which would make even more sense and add realism. But then again I'm expecting we'll to have the option to deck out Hawke in looted Dwarven Plate or Ancient Elven Armor despite the fact that neither of these would have been made for some one of his/her build and height.

Which enemy creatures, follower appearances and NPC armor models would you like to cut? None, I assume, but there are limited resources to divide considering the short timeframe we have to make the game.

Honestly, as many as it takes to get to play a character I actually care about. As I said before human are very boring in a fantasy game, they're like the cereal bits in Lucky Charms sure they're filling and add substance but ultimately they just make the marshmellows look better by comparison.

Just add more time? Yes, that would be nice-- but that's not what we're doing. We could make a smaller game or have less variety in appearances for the PC, I suppose, but the trade-off has to come from somewhere.

Well, properly patching the first game in the series before releasing a sequel would be appreciated. Which in this case I guess it would amount to more time.

Furthermore, DAA had a pretty short turn around and ended up being fairly buggy and felt rushed. Why should we believe any different about DA2? All you did was add in VO and cut out options. Yes I realise the story covers ten years but if DAA and its short turn around is anything to go by, that'll amount to an hour of game time per year.

And that's only if you look at this one aspect. There are others. I don't expect you to know them, or even care about them really, but if you don't I wouldn't suggest speaking out of ignorance either and chalking up a decision you don't like to laziness on our part.

 
So far all Bioware has announced is cuts and the addition of VOs for the PC which doesn't require much more than additional recording time, combined with the quick turn around. The only real conclusions is either that you've cut these out because it's less work or because you're under presure to release a game to capatalise on the Dragon Age franchise while it's still hot. Neither of which are encouraging.

At the very least, have compassion for the kittens.

Your kittens are meaningless and I refuse to acknowledge them... well unless they get close I have allergies

Talon_Wu wrote...
I'm rather glad you're not in charge. Conversely, they could cut man-Hawke and get the same effect.

Yes they could have, I only listed fem-Hawke because male is the assumed default. However gender options would have been irrelevant give fem-Hawke snazzy outfits and physiced breast and I'd bet money most male gamers wouldn't have cared for the lack of he-Hawke.

Stick668 wrote...



(And on this day, I become a proper citizen of the internet.)

Eheh, that's pretty good welcome to the interwebs

David Gaider wrote...
I think so, yes, but that's probably because I attach less value to the prospect of merely having an alternate physical appearance-- the player being elven or dwarven even though there is absolutely nothing else that is elven or dwarven about them. That sounds like an awesome reason to do all that extra work on the armor models, sure.

Then why waste time on modelling gender options and a second VO for what is little more than an alternate appearance? Jiggly breast and nice outfits would have eliminated the need for a he-Hawke. Before you think I'm just using hyperbole, I'm not I really want to know: if physical appearance is that unimportant why did you throw down a whole bunch of resources on it when the above mentioned solution is equally viable?

Modifié par Drasanil, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:03 .

[Addai]

silentassassin264 wrote...
It really didn't take meta-ing information.  My first character I made was a city elf because when I saw the trailer and stuff for that origin, it really seemed to resonate with me.  I played through the origin story and through Ostagar but as I went through after that, I steadily lost interest.  My city elf could not even go back into the alienage to see her family.  She is tasked with dealing with a bunch of human noble politics which she really doesn't care for especially since she was kidnapped by one and her cousin is raped by the same one.  I got bored of being compelled to do things my character would not have done (as I said I would have broken back into the alienage immediately).  

Ok, but all you're really saying is that those origins didn't work for you.  I played a city elf my first character and finished the game with her.  She wasn't my favorite, but that was because I was figuring out the gameplay and lore and she was an all around disaster.  But I've never connected to my Cousland characters with the same feeling as I do my elven characters.  It's a taste thing.

That is the point.  The other origins blurred into you are a generic nobody and your specific origin meant nothing outside of the prologue and Orzammar for the dwarf and Dalish camp/alienage for elves.  If you play a human noble versus a human mage, you reception is drastically different from npcs.  

Whether you are a human or elven mage made very little difference either outside or in the Tower, and other than a few nobles no one recognizes you as a Cousland.  So you're just like any other human.  How is that any different than being recognized only as "elf"?

Modifié par Addai67, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Nerivant]

Drasanil wrote...
Then why waste time on modelling gender options and a second VO for what is little more than an alternate appearance? Jiggly breast and nice outfits would have eliminated the need for a he-Hawke.

Gender had more of an effect on DAO's story than your race did.