443 réponses à ce sujet

[Weiser_Cain]

David Gaider wrote...

Drasanil wrote...
You mean 4 extra models for races that are already there in game? That's a load of bull and you know it, we already know there are dwarves and elves in game they just decided to cut out your ability to play as one and honestly if mods are anything to go by resizing armor really isn't all that hard.

Whooo there goes another kitten. Tsk.

Honestly, people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't make such sweeping statements.

Consider what you already know: the PC is the only character who is going to be actively swapping multiple armor models throughout the game. If you're only looking for one reason, there it is-- and it's no small one. And "resizing" the armor is simplifying the issue... it's work, and multiplied across all equippable armors in the game, times 2. We could do that work, but where would you like it to come from? Which enemy creatures, follower appearances and NPC armor models would you like to cut? None, I assume, but there are limited resources to divide considering the short timeframe we have to make the game.

Just add more time? Yes, that would be nice-- but that's not what we're doing. We could make a smaller game or have less variety in appearances for the PC, I suppose, but the trade-off has to come from somewhere.

And that's only if you look at this one aspect. There are others. I don't expect you to know them, or even care about them really, but if you don't I wouldn't suggest speaking out of ignorance either and chalking up a decision you don't like to laziness on our part. At the very least, have compassion for the kittens.

Wait, are you saying companions are stuck in their original costume for the whole game? That's horrible! How is that not lazyness?

[silentassassin264]

AlanC9 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Actually, the city elf was my favorite origin.  It is not that the origin did not work for me, it was that the game did not work for that origin.  

The game didn't work for a city elf because nobody recognized your character?

Not because they recognized my character.  The only way they did was if someone was like "Hey you look like that elven thief I ran into years ago, Adaia was her name" or something like that because on your own you are forgettable.  It is more because the story doesn't matter to you.  The people of Ferelden look down upon you and even have the nerve to seal you off into a ghetto.  The only reason I bothered to become a grey warden was to escape certain death.  With Duncan and the Grey Wardens dead, a city elf has absolutely no reason to risk their life to save Ferelden and all the humans who persecute them.  It also doesn't help that the whole Landsmeet/ending the civil war is Ferelden human politics.  If I seriously cared about ending the blight as a city elf, I would have gone to Orlais and waited with the other Wardens for Ferelden to get into shape and then end the blight sensibly (whether Ferelden fell or not).  But more likely, I would have just been trying to see if my family was safe considering they are right there in Denerim and they won't let the Commander of the Grey Warden go in there.

[Nerivant]

Drasanil wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 and the human noble starts with a reason to go on.

Again, he simply does not. You know he's going to meet up with Howe again, but the character doesn't know that.

If anything the human noble has a better case for not going on and simply killing him(her)self. His whole world has been destroyed he's been reduced to a penniless Grey Warden and the odds of getting back at Howe who holds most of the cards would be rather slim.

But the odds are there, and just because someone is more likely to do something doesn't mean they will do it.

[Drasanil]

silentassassin264 wrote...
And yes you do.  As soon as you go to Denerim early (which I almost always do to get supplies) you find out that Howe is the Arl of Denerim and was appointed by Loghain.  You don't have to metagame to find that out.  Nice try though.

Which gives a city elf as much motivation given that the guard mentions in the same line that Howe went on a killing spree through the Alienage to celebrate his promotion.

[silentassassin264]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'll take your word for that. There's nothing worth buying in Denerim that early so I never go there. Who tells you he's been appointed Arl, anyway?

So your point is that if a human noble goes to Denerim first, he's motivated. Otherwise, he isn't.

The archivist sash is there and I get it every time.  I also buy all the potions I can get out of habit.  And I believe it is one of the guards who tells you that with the Urien family dead the regent appointed Howe.

Drasanil wrote...
Which gives a city elf as much motivation given that the guard mentions in the same line that Howe went on a killing spree through the Alienage to celebrate his promotion.

Actually he said Howe was putting down a revolt which is why I said I would want to go in there and check on my family especially considering Shianni's temper.  Considering what you know of your family (and what you possibly did killing Vaughn), Howe is probably in the right.  I would just want to see if they were okay.  A city elf wouldn't know Howe personally so I didn't even know who he was or care really.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Drasanil]

Nerivant wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 and the human noble starts with a reason to go on.

Again, he simply does not. You know he's going to meet up with Howe again, but the character doesn't know that.

If anything the human noble has a better case for not going on and simply killing him(her)self. His whole world has been destroyed he's been reduced to a penniless Grey Warden and the odds of getting back at Howe who holds most of the cards would be rather slim.

But the odds are there, and just because someone is more likely to do something doesn't mean they will do it.

The point was who'd be more motivated, a noble who's situation would likely lead to most people having strong suicidal urges or the elf who's basicly on top of the world. In which case the above is relevant. We only know Cousland as a chance because of meta-gaming, where as Tabris has pretty much already "won" by the end of his/her Origin. In which case it would be a question of what the character and not the gamer knows.

[AlanC9]

silentassassin264 wrote...
 With Duncan and the Grey Wardens dead, a city elf has absolutely no reason to risk their life to save Ferelden and all the humans who persecute them.  It also doesn't help that the whole Landsmeet/ending the civil war is Ferelden human politics.  If I seriously cared about ending the blight as a city elf, I would have gone to Orlais and waited with the other Wardens for Ferelden to get into shape and then end the blight sensibly (whether Ferelden fell or not).  But more likely, I would have just been trying to see if my family was safe considering they are right there in Denerim and they won't let the Commander of the Grey Warden go in there.

Just your own family? Not everyone in the alienage, and all the other alienages? You really think there's any way to save them short of defeating the Blight?

[Nerivant]

Drasanil wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 and the human noble starts with a reason to go on.

Again, he simply does not. You know he's going to meet up with Howe again, but the character doesn't know that.

If anything the human noble has a better case for not going on and simply killing him(her)self. His whole world has been destroyed he's been reduced to a penniless Grey Warden and the odds of getting back at Howe who holds most of the cards would be rather slim.

But the odds are there, and just because someone is more likely to do something doesn't mean they will do it.

The point was who'd be more motivated, a noble who's situation would likely lead to most people having strong suicidal urges or the elf who's basicly on top of the world. In which case the above is relevant. We only know Cousland as a chance because of meta-gaming, where as Tabris has pretty much already "won" by the end of his/her Origin. In which case it would be a question of what the character and not the gamer knows.

That depends on the noble. Revenge is a powerful motivator. Just ask Mr. Montoya.

[Herr Uhl]

AlanC9 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
 With Duncan and the Grey Wardens dead, a city elf has absolutely no reason to risk their life to save Ferelden and all the humans who persecute them.  It also doesn't help that the whole Landsmeet/ending the civil war is Ferelden human politics.  If I seriously cared about ending the blight as a city elf, I would have gone to Orlais and waited with the other Wardens for Ferelden to get into shape and then end the blight sensibly (whether Ferelden fell or not).  But more likely, I would have just been trying to see if my family was safe considering they are right there in Denerim and they won't let the Commander of the Grey Warden go in there.

Just your own family? Not everyone in the alienage, and all the other alienages? You really think there's any way to save them short of defeating the Blight?

Short of the HN the CE would have the most incentive to fight the blight in Ferelden out of all origins.

Edit: Though, the HN plausibly only has revenge to stay for. If he/she were to go, Howe would die anyways.

So, I'd say that the CE has the most incentive, due to actually having family and friends that still live in Ferelden.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[silentassassin264]

AlanC9 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
 With Duncan and the Grey Wardens dead, a city elf has absolutely no reason to risk their life to save Ferelden and all the humans who persecute them.  It also doesn't help that the whole Landsmeet/ending the civil war is Ferelden human politics.  If I seriously cared about ending the blight as a city elf, I would have gone to Orlais and waited with the other Wardens for Ferelden to get into shape and then end the blight sensibly (whether Ferelden fell or not).  But more likely, I would have just been trying to see if my family was safe considering they are right there in Denerim and they won't let the Commander of the Grey Warden go in there.

Just your own family? Not everyone in the alienage, and all the other alienages? You really think there's any way to save them short of defeating the Blight?

Well I am selfish. 

But as I said, as far as you know, it is up to two Grey Wardens and a ragtag group of misfits to take down an entire army of Darkspawn.  The sensible thing to do would be going to Orlais and getting more Wardens.  You have no metagaming knowledge that you are the chosen one with the all powerful reload feature and therefore can go against impossible odds and save the day.  More than likely, it just looks like you are going to end up committing suicide and saving no one.  

And as far as the running away option...The forces of Orlais were waiting at the border to end the blight and just didn't go in to avoid Ferelden politics.  The archdemon wouldn't have made it past Ferelden anyway.  

Herr Uhl wrote...
Short of the HN the CE would have the most incentive to fight the blight in Ferelden out of all origins.

Not really.  As I pointed to before, there was a purge in the alienage and your family (with hot head Shianni) is probably dead and you don't even get to go in and check until right before the endgame.  It would not be illogical to assume they are dead until the end of the game and by then you have several armies and Alistair (possibly) almost on the throne.  By then things have changed immensely.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[AlanC9]

silentassassin264 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I'll take your word for that. There's nothing worth buying in Denerim that early so I never go there. Who tells you he's been appointed Arl, anyway?

So your point is that if a human noble goes to Denerim first, he's motivated. Otherwise, he isn't.

The archivist sash is there and I get it every time.  I also buy all the potions I can get out of habit.  And I believe it is one of the guards who tells you that with the Urien family dead the regent appointed Howe.

Forgot about the sash; that's worth having, all right.

That guard is the one guarding the path to the alienage. A non-City Elf doesn't have a reason to talk to him at that state of the game. Kind of amusing, really.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think you're putting way too much onus on the devs to give YOUR character motivation to do WHATEVER. I think they're a little more worried about giving YOU motivation to BUY the game. I'm assuming they also want to provide motivation for you to PLAY the game, hoping that you'll enjoy it and you will thus be even more motivated to BUY FUTURE GAMES.



Heck, somebody go get Sylvius in here so he can complain about how the dev's even ATTEMPTING to GIVE his characters motivation apart from what he makes up in his own head is SACRILEGE.



Harrumph. Anyway, MY City Elf was fully motivated by a desire to NOT DIE to the stupid Blight. Actually, all of my characters were motivated by this. And since apparently everyone else had their heads firmly inserted into their rectums, looked like it was up to them to take care of it. Heck, I could see this being even more motivating to a city elf, who would hardly be surprised by humans with **** syndrome and may very well be viciously self-sufficient as well as concerned that other elves across Ferelden would have the worst problems with the Blight, since they lacked the resources to flee from it.



But whatever, CLEARLY this is the DEV's fault for not magically reading your mind and providing you with what you wanted.

[Drasanil]

Nerivant wrote...
That depends on the noble. Revenge is a powerful motivator. Just ask Mr. Montoya.

Given we're talking about generalities as opposed to specifics that's not really relevant. Despite what Hollywood would have you believe most people placed in such situations would be more likely to give up than go Bruce Willis on some one's arse.

[Nerivant]

Drasanil wrote...

Nerivant wrote...
That depends on the noble. Revenge is a powerful motivator. Just ask Mr. Montoya.

Given we're talking about generalities as opposed to specifics that's not really relevant. Despite what Hollywood would have you believe most people placed in such situations would be more likely to give up than go Bruce Willis on some one's arse.

Actually, we are talking fairly specific.

[Urazz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
 With Duncan and the Grey Wardens dead, a city elf has absolutely no reason to risk their life to save Ferelden and all the humans who persecute them.  It also doesn't help that the whole Landsmeet/ending the civil war is Ferelden human politics.  If I seriously cared about ending the blight as a city elf, I would have gone to Orlais and waited with the other Wardens for Ferelden to get into shape and then end the blight sensibly (whether Ferelden fell or not).  But more likely, I would have just been trying to see if my family was safe considering they are right there in Denerim and they won't let the Commander of the Grey Warden go in there.

Just your own family? Not everyone in the alienage, and all the other alienages? You really think there's any way to save them short of defeating the Blight?

Short of the HN the CE would have the most incentive to fight the blight in Ferelden out of all origins.

Edit: Though, the HN plausibly only has revenge to stay for. If he/she were to go, Howe would die anyways.

So, I'd say that the CE has the most incentive, due to actually having family and friends that still live in Ferelden.

HN wouldn't really leave Fereldan just to let the Blight consume Fereldan to get Howe killed.  The HN wouldn't normally disrespect his/her family and their values like that unless you play him/her that way.  Not to mention a worm like Howe would probably flee before it would get him killed. 

[AlanC9]

silentassassin264 wrote...
But as I said, as far as you know, it is up to two Grey Wardens and a ragtag group of misfits to take down an entire army of Darkspawn.  The sensible thing to do would be going to Orlais and getting more Wardens.  You have no metagaming knowledge that you are the chosen one with the all powerful reload feature and therefore can go against impossible odds and save the day.  More than likely, it just looks like you are going to end up committing suicide and saving no one.

You don't know you can defeat the Blight, but you do know you can get to Howe? Moreover, get to Howe not by going after him, but by opposing Loghain?

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[Annarl]

 I have no real concerns because Bioware has said this change is story driven.  So of all the changes (we know of) this one concerns me the least.  One thing Bioware does well is tell a story, so I will trust this decision.

Modifié par omearaee, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:08 .

[Herr Uhl]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Short of the HN the CE would have the most incentive to fight the blight in Ferelden out of all origins.

Not really.  As I pointed to before, there was a purge in the alienage and your family (with hot head Shianni) is probably dead and you don't even get to go in and check until right before the endgame.  It would not be illogical to assume they are dead until the end of the game and by then you have several armies and Alistair (possibly) almost on the throne.  By then things have changed immensely.

You mean in comparison of the DE, whose clan moved away? Or the Magi, who gets to hear rumors about how the tower is in chaos, and even after finishing, a big portion of all the people he/she ever knew would be dead? Or the dwarves that have no affiliation with Ferelden at all?

[silentassassin264]

AlanC9 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
But as I said, as far as you know, it is up to two Grey Wardens and a ragtag group of misfits to take down an entire army of Darkspawn.  The sensible thing to do would be going to Orlais and getting more Wardens.  You have no metagaming knowledge that you are the chosen one with the all powerful reload feature and therefore can go against impossible odds and save the day.  More than likely, it just looks like you are going to end up committing suicide and saving no one.

You don't know you can defeat the Blight, but you do know you can get to Howe? Moreover, get to Howe not by going after him, but by opposing Loghain?

Defeating the blight is considerably harder than opposing Loghain as the champion of the Bannorn and rightful king/queen of Ferelden.  The Couslands are the second royal family of Ferelden and with the Thierens (sp sorry Alistair) gone or hiding their lineage, you are the rightful leader of Ferelden and all you have to do is join in on the opposing side.  Defeating the blight on the other hands has you going through an army of darkspawn and fighting a well nigh immortal dragon thing.  There is a reason why you end the civil war before you try and take on the archdemon.

Herr Uhl wrote...
You mean in comparison of the DE, whose clan moved away? Or the Magi, who gets to hear rumors about how the tower is in chaos, and even after finishing, a big portion of all the people he/she ever knew would be dead? Or the dwarves that have no affiliation with Ferelden at all?

Well when you put it that way, yes.  But it is a drastic gap between the Human noble and the city elf in motivation.  The Dalish in particular are on huge problem with Origins.  As a conscripted Dalish Warden who hates humans, I would have just gone north and left Ferelden to burn.  The fact that you are forced to stay because "but thou must" is just lulzy.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:12 .

[Addai]

silentassassin264 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Actually, the city elf was my favorite origin.  It is not that the origin did not work for me, it was that the game did not work for that origin.  

The game didn't work for a city elf because nobody recognized your character?

Not because they recognized my character.  The only way they did was if someone was like "Hey you look like that elven thief I ran into years ago, Adaia was her name" or something like that because on your own you are forgettable.  It is more because the story doesn't matter to you.  The people of Ferelden look down upon you and even have the nerve to seal you off into a ghetto.  The only reason I bothered to become a grey warden was to escape certain death.  With Duncan and the Grey Wardens dead, a city elf has absolutely no reason to risk their life to save Ferelden and all the humans who persecute them.  

Uh... maybe because the alienage would be destroyed, too?

I agree that there is less reason for an elf or a mage to care about Fereldan royal politics, but if for no other reason you deal with it for the same reason you have to deal with the dwarves' politics- it's what you have to do to unite people and get them fighting the Blight.  The whole premise of the game is a Warden trying to defeat the Blight.  If what you're saying is that you can't imagine a city elf who would want to do that, well... I would say the origin is not for you.  Or it could be a lack of imagination?

[Addai]

silentassassin264 wrote...
 The Dalish in particular are on huge problem with Origins.  As a conscripted Dalish Warden who hates humans, I would have just gone north and left Ferelden to burn.  The fact that you are forced to stay because "but thou must" is just lulzy.

I'm repeating myself now, but as a Dalish Warden you have numerous reasons to fight the Blight.  Marethari tells you it's your duty and that the clan can't outrun the Blight.  You've already seen what it can do to people and to the land.

Engage the story as it is, not as you want it to be.  Or just don't play the game.

[Maria Caliban]

There is no way for BioWare to create a situation that will motivate every PC that a player could come up with, but I agree that it's good to have a motivation that a resonable character would have.

The dwarves have fought darkspawn continuously for centuries now and ought to understand the importance of destroying the archdemon. The city elf and human noble would both have an attachment to Ferelden and not want it destroyed.

The dalish, in general, seem to see the darkspawn as a shem problem. A better reason for fighting might have been given. Sure, Tamlen got killed/turned into ghoul, but that was his own damn fault.

If you're going to make it personal, do something like the human noble origin where Howe butchered your entire family.

[silentassassin264]

Addai67 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Actually, the city elf was my favorite origin.  It is not that the origin did not work for me, it was that the game did not work for that origin.  

The game didn't work for a city elf because nobody recognized your character?

Not because they recognized my character.  The only way they did was if someone was like "Hey you look like that elven thief I ran into years ago, Adaia was her name" or something like that because on your own you are forgettable.  It is more because the story doesn't matter to you.  The people of Ferelden look down upon you and even have the nerve to seal you off into a ghetto.  The only reason I bothered to become a grey warden was to escape certain death.  With Duncan and the Grey Wardens dead, a city elf has absolutely no reason to risk their life to save Ferelden and all the humans who persecute them.  

Uh... maybe because the alienage would be destroyed, too?

I agree that there is less reason for an elf or a mage to care about Fereldan royal politics, but if for no other reason you deal with it for the same reason you have to deal with the dwarves' politics- it's what you have to do to unite people and get them fighting the Blight.  The whole premise of the game is a Warden trying to defeat the Blight.  If what you're saying is that you can't imagine a city elf who would want to do that, well... I would say the origin is not for you.  Or it could be a lack of imagination?

Well I my characters tend to reflect my selfishness so that is not limited to my city elf but yes the whole uniting the land against the blight thing would be one of the last things in my mind if I am a city elf warden.  My ideal course of action would be break into the alienage, rescue my family, and flee to the free marches.  The city elf rising up to save Ferelden from the blight is the equivalent of Cthullu appearing out of nowhere with an army of lovecraftian horrors in the middle of **** Germany and a Jew leading the resistance to save **** germany from Cthullu.  I am not saying it wouldn't happen seeing as the Jew would have family and things to fight for in germany...but seriously?  I would not risk my life solving all of the problems in the game when for all I know my family has already been killed in the purge.  Same with the Dalish elf.  I would not risk my life saving Ferelden when I had a deep hostility towards humans bred in me.  The human noble on the other hand has the fact that those are their people.  Not just because you are a noble but those are your fellow people.  Ferelden is also your country.  You have a reason to do the rally behind the flag effect that an elf really doesn't have.


Apologies for Godwin's law.

Addai67 wrote...
I'm repeating myself now, but as a Dalish Warden you have numerous reasons to fight the Blight.  Marethari tells you it's your duty and that the clan can't outrun the Blight.  You've already seen what it can do to people and to the land.

Engage the story as it is, not as you want it to be.  Or just don't play the game.

You named one reason not many and it is not a really good one.  Being conscripted to fight the blight and then having all the other wardens (save Alistair) dead is not something most would do in that situation.  And you just helped prove why I am happy they removed the origins in DA2.  The reason you have to fight in all the other origins than human noble is seriously diminished.  In fact, it is easier to name reasons not to fight.  Hopefully with Hawke, they can tailor the story to one character and not have things like that because and I quote "Sorry. Don't buy it. Not sure why you're selling it, either."

Modifié par silentassassin264, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:42 .

[Stanley Woo]

Weiser_Cain wrote...
 Wait, are you saying companions are stuck in their original costume for the whole game? That's horrible! How is that not lazyness?

Sorry, I was working until 11pm last night and wasn't the last one out of the office. what was that you were saying about laziness?

[Xewaka]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, I was working until 11pm last night and wasn't the last one out of the office. what was that you were saying about laziness?

Wait wait wait. Not only are you too lazy to allow customization, you're so inefficient at lazyness you have to work extra? Well that's new.



(In case it isn't obvious enough, this is a joke)

Modifié par Xewaka, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:47 .