443 réponses à ce sujet

[Ortaya Alevli]

Hello. I am Lyna Mahariel of the Dalish. I have been tainted by darkspawn during an unfortunate incident which also took my...best friend Tamlen away, and I have lost everything. Now a shemlen says my only chance of survival lies with joining his order, but that also means I have to spend the rest of my days hunting darkspawn. Having to leave my clan tears me apart, but the alternative is to stay here and die a slow and painful death, so I am lost to the clan in any case. At least I have a chance to exact revenge upon those who took my Tamlen and my life away from me. I am Dalish; I did not submit to human injustice, and I am not giving in to these foul creatures, either.

***

Or maybe you guys are right and the Dalish don't have much reason to take the fight to the darkspawn. Hm.

[Aermas]

Nice : )

[Shadow Wing]

Face of Evil wrote...

Adanu wrote...

You are misreading what I am saying and taking implications that are not there. I'm not looking to debate something that I have clearly stated as contrary to what you are reading from me, however, I will just state that I did not say anything about elitism. I am stating that *WE ARE CUSTOMERS TOO*

Oh, well, my pardon, good sir. Now, if you can stop acting like a condescending jackass for a moment, perhaps you would please enlighten me to your point? Because this is what I'm hearing from you:

1) The Human Noble is the only Origin that gives the Warden a reason to keep fighting.
2) You've bought Bioware's merchandise and that means you're entitled to special treatment.

Ok, I'm gonna try to play peacemake here. Dude, I think what Adanu is trying to say here is that there is also a group of customers who also have the same opinion as Adanu on certain topics. And that maybe David and the other moderator should not dismissed their ideas/opinions as wrong simply because they didn't think or originally plan for the game experience to turn that way. I don't agree on all the ideas he has but when it comes to experienceing a particular story such as those from each of the races, people's opinion would be different from each other but we should accept it as valid no matter how unpopular it is (unless its really nasty) since they too  have played the game.
I do have to say though that Adanu could have made his comments less agressive and confrontational that way people wouldn't be so defensively immediately.

[Shadow Wing]

sorry i meant "be so defensive immediately"

[Hukari]

I would also argue against the notion that the Human Noble was the only one that got something out of the situation, or got to be a monarch. If you play a Dwarf Noble, you eventually get named a Paragon, which is -higher- than a King to the Dwarves. Most likely, you don't only go on to form a house and do some pretty good things (reversing the damage that Harrowmont or Bhelen did), but probably form your own dynasty. That seems pretty epic, to me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sharn01 wrote...

Cromulent has several meanings, but I
would wager he was using it in place of fine and acceptable, which is
what it is is used for most frequently from my experiance, so he used
the world correctly.

That is how I meant it.  It's a word I use on a regular basis; I didn't realise it was obscure, given its purely pop-culture origins.

AlanC9 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

 The *point* is that David (and you it seems?) does not want to admit that the human noble origin gives players a lot more reason to care about what happens to Ferelden.

That's right. He doesn't want to admit it, and neither do I. Because you're simply wrong.

I agree.  The Human Noble is one of two origins (along with the City Elf) that I think don't really suit the game.  DAO is written seemingly assuming that the PC is a Warden above all else, and the other origins certainly allow that.  But the Human Noble and City Elf give, I think, too many other possible motives to the PC, thus requiring different types of action later in the game, and that action isn't actually allowed.

[Malanek]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I agree.  The Human Noble is one of two origins (along with the City Elf) that I think don't really suit the game.  DAO is written seemingly assuming that the PC is a Warden above all else, and the other origins certainly allow that.  But the Human Noble and City Elf give, I think, too many other possible motives to the PC, thus requiring different types of action later in the game, and that action isn't actually allowed.

What motivation isn't allowed late in the game? I did find that I didn't really want to become a warden with the human noble but that was right at the start.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think the City Elf has reason to want to use the instability offered by the Blight to rearrange Ferelden's social order, and the Human Noble could reasonably be sufficiently political to do effectively what Loghain is trying to do (though for more selfish reasons).

[Malanek]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I think the City Elf has reason to want to use the instability offered by the Blight to rearrange Ferelden's social order, and the Human Noble could reasonably be sufficiently political to do effectively what Loghain is trying to do (though for more selfish reasons).

You can do that as a human noble by marrying Anora. Or alternatively putting Alistair on the throne and pulling the strings.

[Adanu]

Face of Evil wrote...

Adanu wrote...

You are misreading what I am saying and taking implications that are not there. I'm not looking to debate something that I have clearly stated as contrary to what you are reading from me, however, I will just state that I did not say anything about elitism. I am stating that *WE ARE CUSTOMERS TOO*

Oh, well, my pardon, good sir. Now, if you can stop acting like a condescending jackass for a moment, perhaps you would please enlighten me to your point? Because this is what I'm hearing from you:

1) The Human Noble is the only Origin that gives the Warden a reason to keep fighting.
2) You've bought Bioware's merchandise and that means you're entitled to special treatment.

You are misreading.

[joriandrake]

Monica83 wrote...

Yes i was disappointed too when i seen this news.. And i belevied they wanted to follow the mass effect style... In fact.... From what features we have now... It seems...

yes. very

[silentassassin264]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Hello. I am Lyna Mahariel of the Dalish. I have been tainted by darkspawn during an unfortunate incident which also took my...best friend Tamlen away, and I have lost everything. Now a shemlen says my only chance of survival lies with joining his order, but that also means I have to spend the rest of my days hunting darkspawn. Having to leave my clan tears me apart, but the alternative is to stay here and die a slow and painful death, so I am lost to the clan in any case. At least I have a chance to exact revenge upon those who took my Tamlen and my life away from me. I am Dalish; I did not submit to human injustice, and I am not giving in to these foul creatures, either.
***
Or maybe you guys are right and the Dalish don't have much reason to take the fight to the darkspawn. Hm.

Maybe I should have phrased it differently since nobody seems to get my point.  In the Dalish Origin you get the option to kill three humans at the beginning because you can choose to be racist against humans for the sake of it.  When Hahren Paivel asks you about Duncan afterwards, you can still say along the lines of "he is still a filthy shem".  When you meet Duncan by the mirror you can be resentful not even be thankful.  When he discusses with the Keeper, your salvation through essential exile, you can tell him no way are you leaving the clan.  When the Keeper says it is your duty, you can say you can't make me (which according to what Arthras says is technically correct since people follow the Keeper out of respect but they can't actually command people).  When Duncan conscripts you, you can tell him that he will pay that.

All that I mentioned is in the game.  You don't have to do a Sylvius the Mad alternate character interpretation to roleplay a Dalish elf that does not like humans, did not want to leave the clan, and does not give a care about the Grey wardens or the  blight.  Bioware put that in the game.  If that is the character that you are playing the only reason you have to finish that playthrough after Ostagar is as Flemeth noted, profit is the best reason for doing good but if you really hated humans and resented Duncan that may not be good enough to go on a potential suicide mission.

Lastly, specifically for Tamlen, he was not tainted by the Darkspawn.  He touched a cursed mirror on his on accord and got tainted.  You are really pushing it to blame the darkspawn for someone poisoning themselves.

[Ortaya Alevli]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Maybe I should have phrased it differently since nobody seems to get my point.  In the Dalish Origin you get the option to kill three humans at the beginning because you can choose to be racist against humans for the sake of it.  When Hahren Paivel asks you about Duncan afterwards, you can still say along the lines of "he is still a filthy shem".  When you meet Duncan by the mirror you can be resentful not even be thankful.  When he discusses with the Keeper, your salvation through essential exile, you can tell him no way are you leaving the clan.  When the Keeper says it is your duty, you can say you can't make me (which according to what Arthras says is technically correct since people follow the Keeper out of respect but they can't actually command people).  When Duncan conscripts you, you can tell him that he will pay that.

All that I mentioned is in the game.  You don't have to do a Sylvius the Mad alternate character interpretation to roleplay a Dalish elf that does not like humans, did not want to leave the clan, and does not give a care about the Grey wardens or the  blight.  Bioware put that in the game.  If that is the character that you are playing the only reason you have to finish that playthrough after Ostagar is as Flemeth noted, profit is the best reason for doing good but if you really hated humans and resented Duncan that may not be good enough to go on a potential suicide mission.

Lastly, specifically for Tamlen, he was not tainted by the Darkspawn.  He touched a cursed mirror on his on accord and got tainted.  You are really pushing it to blame the darkspawn for someone poisoning themselves.

I wasn't addressing you in particular. But I'll bite.

First, Dalish elf is not the only origin where you can play a Warden who doesn't give two coppers to what happens to humanity, if that's "your point." My Brosca says hello, for instance.

Second, Tamlen touched a mirror which was tainted by darkspawn. I touch mirrors all the time. If I contracted a fatal disease by touching a mirror, I wouldn't blame myself. And if the mirror were infected by a third party intentionally, I'd spend the rest of my life hunting them down.

[silentassassin264]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
I wasn't addressing you in particular. But I'll bite.

First, Dalish elf is not the only origin where you can play a Warden who doesn't give two coppers to what happens to humanity, if that's "your point." My Brosca says hello, for instance.

Second, Tamlen touched a mirror which was tainted by darkspawn. I touch mirrors all the time. If I contracted a fatal disease by touching a mirror, I wouldn't blame myself. And if the mirror were infected by a third party intentionally, I'd spend the rest of my life hunting them down.

Yeah, how many glowing purple mirrors with obviously evil swirls in them that attracted demonic bears have you touched?  That was all Tamlen's fault.  He should have gone back and told someone about it.

And yes, you are right about Brosca too.  I was not saying that was limited to the Dalish elf, it is just the easiest example to point out.  My original point was that the human noble is inextricably linked to the story and the other origins had a more tacked on feeling to them.  If you try the "forget it, I am going to the free marches" as a human noble after you promised your dying father vengeance, it feels kind of cheap.  I am hoping that in DA2 that they will make the story engaging for that one character that you are so you don't run into any moments when you have to think, "why is my character doing this?  They wouldn't care about that." in regards to the main story.  Spreading it out among all those origins (and different possible motivations for each origin) made everything seem rather generic and watered down.  

Modifié par silentassassin264, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Yeah, how many glowing purple mirrors with obviously evil swirls in them have you touched?  That was all Tamlen's fault.  He should have gone back and told someone about it.

I'm not saying it was a brilliant move. I'm saying getting tainted by a mirror is not the most expected outcome. Telling yourself "poor bastard should've known better" and moving on is difficult considering he's your best friend or maybe even future bondmate and you cannot actually move on because you're about to die horribly or transform into a ghoul.

And yes, you are right about Brosca too.  I was not saying that was limited to the Dalish elf, it is just the easiest example to point out.  My original point was that the human noble is inextricably linked to the story and the other origins had a more tacked on feeling to them.  If you try the "forget it, I am going to the free marches" as a human noble after you promised your dying father vengeance, it feels kind of cheap.  I am hoping that in DA2 that they will make the story engaging for that one character that you are so you don't run into any moments when you have to think, "why is my character doing this?  They wouldn't care about that." in regards to the main story.  Spreading it out among all those origins made everything seem rather generic and watered down. 

No arguments here.

[Piecake]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
I wasn't addressing you in particular. But I'll bite.

First, Dalish elf is not the only origin where you can play a Warden who doesn't give two coppers to what happens to humanity, if that's "your point." My Brosca says hello, for instance.

Second, Tamlen touched a mirror which was tainted by darkspawn. I touch mirrors all the time. If I contracted a fatal disease by touching a mirror, I wouldn't blame myself. And if the mirror were infected by a third party intentionally, I'd spend the rest of my life hunting them down.

Yeah, how many glowing purple mirrors with obviously evil swirls in them have you touched?  That was all Tamlen's fault.  He should have gone back and told someone about it.

And yes, you are right about Brosca too.  I was not saying that was limited to the Dalish elf, it is just the easiest example to point out.  My original point was that the human noble is inextricably linked to the story and the other origins had a more tacked on feeling to them.  If you try the "forget it, I am going to the free marches" as a human noble after you promised your dying father vengeance, it feels kind of cheap.  I am hoping that in DA2 that they will make the story engaging for that one character that you are so you don't run into any moments when you have to think, "why is my character doing this?  They wouldn't care about that." in regards to the main story.  Spreading it out among all those origins made everything seem rather generic and watered down.  

They did say that the DA2's plot is Hawke's story, so I imagine that is the case. 

They were pretty much forced into doing a "one-size fits all save the world" story for DAO to incorporate all of the different origin stories(personalities included) that you could make (not making any claim on whether they were successful or not).

It sounds like the writers want to do something different this time around, so hopefully we will get a more personal, and less fight evil bad guy story

Modifié par Piecake, 19 novembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Leonia]

All six origins provided some reason to join the Wardens and if the character RPing didn't agree with those reasons because of how they were RPing their PC, well, there's always Duncan's conscription to seal the deal. Whether you think your character should be fighting darkspawn or not, the game puts you on that path. For some, that may limit RPness (is that a word?) but for others it makes you think "Well, I don't want to be a Warden but I guess I have to be. Guess I will make the most of it. Maybe I'll just pick all the jerk dialogue options along the way to show my displeasure." I'm not saying all of the origins appealed to everyone or that they all felt "equal" but in terms of all having a motivation to strike at the darkspawn.. if you look hard enough you can find a reason in each of them.



That said, yeah, overall the origins did feel a bit watered down (especially if you had done them all and left several characters at Ostagar, never to play with again) and I think that's probably why they decided to focus on a single "origin" for DA 2. It lets the writers focus their energies and talents on a single background that the player can then go off and decide "Ok, now what do I want to do with my character knowing I am a peasant in Lothering (or whatever the background for Hawke is)?"

[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

My original point was that the human noble is inextricably linked to the story and the other origins had a more tacked on feeling to them.  

That is entirely your own opinion, one that I wholeheartedly disagree with.

silentassassin264 wrote...

If you try the "forget it, I am going to the free marches" as a human noble after you promised your dying father vengeance, it feels kind of cheap.

But that's the thing: your promise to your father was about seeking vengeance on Howe, not stopping the Blight.

I can easily argue that the HN has less motivation for trying to stop the darkspawn, as his/her only reason for going to Ostagar was to escape Howe's trap and then inform the king of Howe's treachery. Once that goes ******-up, the logical course of action for an HN is to either embark on a desperate search for Fergus or go straight for Howe, with a possible detour to Redcliffe to see if Arl Eamon can do anything for you. After all, you have no way of knowing that your quest will eventually bring you to a confrontation with Howe. The Blight can bloody well wait until your family has been avenged.

The HN's reason for stopping the darkspawn is the same as any other: if it's not concern for the welfare of others, then it's self-preservation. Because buggering off to Orlais is a ******-poor plan, as there's no guarantee that the other nations of the world will be able to stop the Blight.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 19 novembre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Vena_86]

Hukari wrote...

I would also argue against the notion that the Human Noble was the only one that got something out of the situation, or got to be a monarch. If you play a Dwarf Noble, you eventually get named a Paragon, which is -higher- than a King to the Dwarves. Most likely, you don't only go on to form a house and do some pretty good things (reversing the damage that Harrowmont or Bhelen did), but probably form your own dynasty. That seems pretty epic, to me.

My poor duster dwarf became a paragon too. Now THAT is epic.

[Xewaka]

Vena_86 wrote...

Hukari wrote...

I would also argue against the notion that the Human Noble was the only one that got something out of the situation, or got to be a monarch. If you play a Dwarf Noble, you eventually get named a Paragon, which is -higher- than a King to the Dwarves. Most likely, you don't only go on to form a house and do some pretty good things (reversing the damage that Harrowmont or Bhelen did), but probably form your own dynasty. That seems pretty epic, to me.

My poor duster dwarf became a paragon too. Now THAT is epic.

Mine did as well. Then again, my Brosca was itching for an excuse to leave her crime-ridden life behind and improve her lot, so she jumped at the Grey Warden call.

[joriandrake]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Cromulent has several meanings, but I
would wager he was using it in place of fine and acceptable, which is
what it is is used for most frequently from my experiance, so he used
the world correctly.

That is how I meant it.  It's a word I use on a regular basis; I didn't realise it was obscure, given its purely pop-culture origins.

AlanC9 wrote...

Adanu wrote...

 The *point* is that David (and you it seems?) does not want to admit that the human noble origin gives players a lot more reason to care about what happens to Ferelden.

That's right. He doesn't want to admit it, and neither do I. Because you're simply wrong.

I agree.  The Human Noble is one of two origins (along with the City Elf) that I think don't really suit the game.  DAO is written seemingly assuming that the PC is a Warden above all else, and the other origins certainly allow that.  But the Human Noble and City Elf give, I think, too many other possible motives to the PC, thus requiring different types of action later in the game, and that action isn't actually allowed.

social.bioware.com/group/3009/

welcome!

[Maria Caliban]

It occurs to me that the current discussion has little to do with Dragon Age 2.

We know that there's some reason Hawke needs to be human and I'm willing to guess it's more than the politics of the Free Marches. However, they could have given us several different human origins.

It seems natural to me that the Champion of Kirkwall be a native of Kirkwall, but that's not the case. Instead, we're given someone from an obscure town in Ferelden.

Why?

Even within Lothering, there are probably many families. Why apostate outcastes from Ferelden nobility?

[Stanley Woo]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Even within Lothering, there are probably many families. Why apostate outcastes from Ferelden nobility?

Maybe this question is answered in the game?

[PsychoBlonde]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Even within Lothering, there are probably many families. Why apostate outcastes from Ferelden nobility?

Maybe this question is answered in the game?

But then we have to waaiiiiiiit.

[Stanley Woo]

i know. Life is hard.