443 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Face of Evil wrote...

But that's the thing: your promise to your father was about seeking vengeance on Howe, not stopping the Blight.

IIRC your dad just tells you to GTFO and you saying that you'll make Howe pay isn't a promise he extorted, just something you volunteered.  And what about your promise to DUNCAN to become a Warden and help end the Blight in exchange for SAVING YOUR SORRY LIFE.

[PsychoBlonde]

Stanley Woo wrote...

i know. Life is hard.

Can I have a hug while I wait? :innocent:

[Sharn01]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
I wasn't addressing you in particular. But I'll bite.

First, Dalish elf is not the only origin where you can play a Warden who doesn't give two coppers to what happens to humanity, if that's "your point." My Brosca says hello, for instance.

Second, Tamlen touched a mirror which was tainted by darkspawn. I touch mirrors all the time. If I contracted a fatal disease by touching a mirror, I wouldn't blame myself. And if the mirror were infected by a third party intentionally, I'd spend the rest of my life hunting them down.

Yeah, how many glowing purple mirrors with obviously evil swirls in them that attracted demonic bears have you touched?  That was all Tamlen's fault.  He should have gone back and told someone about it.

And yes, you are right about Brosca too.  I was not saying that was limited to the Dalish elf, it is just the easiest example to point out.  My original point was that the human noble is inextricably linked to the story and the other origins had a more tacked on feeling to them.  If you try the "forget it, I am going to the free marches" as a human noble after you promised your dying father vengeance, it feels kind of cheap.  I am hoping that in DA2 that they will make the story engaging for that one character that you are so you don't run into any moments when you have to think, "why is my character doing this?  They wouldn't care about that." in regards to the main story.  Spreading it out among all those origins (and different possible motivations for each origin) made everything seem rather generic and watered down.  

You have the option to have any character say I dont care about that and simply leave, its called turning off the game.  I table top game with my friends every saturday and have for years, even in table top characters sometimes need to recheck their motivations or even be removed from the game and a new one made when they do not fit with the story or the group.  I am running one game for everyone who is playing and am not going to cater to one person who envisioned his character as a homicidal sociopath while everyone else is striving to be at least decent people. 

The point is even in table top where you really can play almost any character you envision, there are still limitations to what you can do, another change in table top games is the reason that your character is ever going to do anything is entirely up to you, the player, but in a crpg so many people seem to want everything spelled out for them in the game its self.  Why are you playing an rpg at all in that case, why do you want a game where decision making is allowed if you dont want to make decisions.  If you dont like the dalish origin that is fine, there are 4 others for you to try and see if it fits better for you.  But other people do like it and it seems odd that you feel that since you didnt care for it that anyone who did is wrong and not really playing the game correctly in your eyes.

Modifié par Sharn01, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[Maria Caliban]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Even within Lothering, there are probably many families. Why apostate outcastes from Ferelden nobility?

Maybe this question is answered in the game?

Maaaaaybe.

[AlanC9]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

But that's the thing: your promise to your father was about seeking vengeance on Howe, not stopping the Blight.

IIRC your dad just tells you to GTFO and you saying that you'll make Howe pay isn't a promise he extorted, just something you volunteered.  And what about your promise to DUNCAN to become a Warden and help end the Blight in exchange for SAVING YOUR SORRY LIFE.

Bryce does tell you to see that justice is done, but at the time the plan is that the king will handle it. There's certainly no expectation that you'll have to personally kill Howe.

[silentassassin264]

Sharn01 wrote...

You have the option to have any character say I dont care about that and simply leave, its called turning off the game.  I table top game with my friends every saturday and have for years, even in table top characters sometimes need to recheck their motivations or even be removed from the game and a new one made when they do not fit with the story or the group.  I am running one game for everyone who is playing and am not going to cater to one person who envisioned his character as a homicidal sociopath while everyone else is striving to be at least decent people. 

The point is even in table top where you really can play almost any character you envision, there are still limitations to what you can do, another change in table top games is the reason that your character is ever going to do anything is entirely up to you, the player, but in a crpg so many people seem to want everything spelled out for them in the game its self.  Why are you playing an rpg at all in that case, why do you want a game where decision making is allowed if you dont want to make decisions.  If you dont like the dalish origin that is fine, there are 4 others for you to try and see if it fits better for you.  But other people do like it and it seems odd that you feel that since you didnt care for it that anyone who did is wrong and not really playing the game correctly in your eyes.

Apparently you were one of the people that didn't understand what I was trying to convey.  The first Dalish playthrough I did was a rather curious Kathrien (yes I stole Zathrien's name) who was curious about the humans and did not really hate them.  She was thankful for Duncan for saving her, fell in love with Alistair and was more than happy to fight for the memory of the man who saved her life and also save Ferelden.  Coincidentally, she was able to get the Dalish a nice new homeland as she was now a hero amongst the humans and they had to respect the Dalish.  If you roleplayed it this way, the origin was fine.

But, the Dalish Origin gives you every reason to hate humans as well as be curious/forgiving about them.  Bioware gives you those options and puts them in the game.  If you roleplay many of the non-human noble origins it that way, once you wake up in Flemeth's hut, your reaction could very well be "Well that failed, time to get out of here".

If you do indeed feel that way, the only thing the game gives you to keep on going is "well there better be some profit involved." and seeing as you do get to become Teryn of Gwaren regardless of origin, it is technically true but that is significantly less than the "it's personal" feeling I got from the human noble origin.

Now I know several people have posted along the lines of "well that is just your opinion" about the human noble motive and you are right.  But I am not the only person who felt that way.  There have been plenty of threads here about others who felt the same way. So, while you disagree and I respect your opinion, do not act like everyone else is wrong.

[Sharn01]

I did not act like everyone else is wrong, you are doing so though. I clearly said that if in your opinion you felt the character you where playing wasnt motivated to fight the blight then maybe you should rethink your motivations or try a different character. You adamantly state your opinion that the human noble origin is the best as fact.

I played every origin, I thought all of them where well done except the human noble.  To me the human noble was such a generic origin that they threw in rat fighting as a joke throwback to old video games.  I dont come to the boards though and try to force that opinion on anyone else.

Modifié par Sharn01, 19 novembre 2010 - 11:22 .

[AlanC9]

I agree. Walking out of the game is a perfectly valid RP choice for the Dalish Elf.



Note that Storm of Zehir actually does support something like this. The player can quit at any time, and the epilogues support this. This can be Very Bad for the Sword Coast depending on when you quit the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Note that Storm of Zehir actually does support something like this. The player can quit at any time, and the epilogues support this. This can be Very Bad for the Sword Coast depending on when you quit the game.

Now I really need to play SoZ.

You might have just moved it to the front of the queue.

[silentassassin264]

Sharn01 wrote...

I did not act like everyone else is wrong, you are doing so though. I clearly said that if in your opinion you felt the character you where playing wasnt motivated to fight the blight then maybe you should rethink your motivations or try a different character. You adamantly state your opinion that the human noble origin is the best as fact.

I played every origin, I thought all of them where well done except the human noble.  To me the human noble was such a generic origin that they threw in rat fighting as a joke throwback to old video games.  I dont come to the boards though and try to force that opinion on anyone else.

My point for commenting in this thread was that I felt that the story became rather generic and washed out having it cover all those origins and motivations and I was happy that for DA2 they reduced it to one so it can actual be unique.  Flemeth was an awesome character and technically I would agree that profit was one of the best motivations for doing good but it is kind of hard to keep thinking that when you are wandering in the deep roads hacking up wave after wave of darkspawn (Just a few more Darkspawn and I will be the first elven noble in Ferelden! ugh another set of shrieks ).  When you are doing the monotonous hacking for your murdered father, it just goes by quicker.

And as far as the human noble since it doesn't seem to penetrate, it was NOT my favorite origin.  The city elf was my favorite origin by far.  However, to everyone outside the alienage you are a generic elf that could be confused for a Dalish for all most the characters know.  Outside of the Alienage and Dalish camp, which elf you chose is not even really relevant.  Playing as a human mage versus human noble causing you to be a human character both times but is drastically different in reception (which becomes rather lulzy sice Gaider said Amells are actually nobles) It also does not help that you cannot go back to the Alienage to see the part that is unique to you until the part right before the endgame.  The game also has the wonderful (sarcasm mode) human noble bonus of having the choice to become monarch of Ferelden.  And yes you can complain that not every HN takes that route, that origin still has an important epilogue bearing option that no one can choose and they do not even make up for it anywhere else.  The game catered to the HN in my opinion and I did not like that.

[Sharn01]

Every origin had a unique epilogue choice that only someone from that origin could get. HN unique one was become a monarch, that you view this unique epilogue as better then the ones available to the other origins is the very definition of an opinion and not fact.

[silentassassin264]

Sharn01 wrote...

Every origin had a unique epilogue choice that only someone from that origin could get. HN unique one was become a monarch, that you view this unique epilogue as better then the ones available to the other origins is the very definition of an opinion and not fact.

silentassassin264 wrote...
  The game catered to the HN in my opinion and I did not like that.

Well whatcha know.  How did that get there?

[Sharn01]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Every origin had a unique epilogue choice that only someone from that origin could get. HN unique one was become a monarch, that you view this unique epilogue as better then the ones available to the other origins is the very definition of an opinion and not fact.

silentassassin264 wrote...
  The game catered to the HN in my opinion and I did not like that.

Well whatcha know.  How did that get there?

You flip back and forth in your posts.  The sentence right before that stated something completely untrue as a fact. 

Yes, I do think with a predetermined character the story will be more tight, I even think it could end up being a very good game.  I am against it because there are already many good games with predetermined characters, the games that give you options in character creation are limited, and bioware was one of the few that still made that option available on a regular basis. 

If this is the direction they want to go then its unlikely we will ever play non humans again in a DA game if more are made, regardless of whether or not Gaider is willing to make a game with a non human protagonist, he still needs the funding and recourses to do so, if being willing to make one was all it took I would have made several myself.

People having an opinion that a single race gets preferential treatment, or that one is the right way to play the game even if its not the one they wanted it to be is a small price to pay for having the option to make that choice, the alternative is no choice at all, and that is not what I want. 

What happens when DA2 comes out and people are on the forum complaining that one gender had preferential treatment over the other, will we use this as an excuse to have the DA3 character lose that choice as well? 

Modifié par Sharn01, 20 novembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[silentassassin264]

You said that every origin has a unique epilogue choice and I said that none of them made up for the monarch choice. That is my opinion that they do not make up for the monarch choice as you pointed out that you do not accept my opinion.



But since you decided to roll with it, I will explain why I have my opinion.



The actual Human noble unique ending option is not actually becoming monarch, it is a rather personally ruining of the Howes for Rendon Howe murdering your family. This is actually redundant and pointless (IMO I guess I have to keep adding this since you can't tell my opinion) since regardless of choice, Amarathine is taken from the Howes and given to the Grey Wardens.



The Mage origin unique epilogue choice is freeing the Tower from the Chantry. Gaider also poured rain on your parade by pointing out that it doesn't come to fruition anyway. IMO, this also does not make up for the monarch choice since you don't gain any position relative to a monarch and you request is denied anyway.



The city elf origin unique option is giving the elves (relative) autonomy and giving you (or Shianni) the option to be the Bann of the alienage. IMO, this is slightly redundant because if you stop the slaving, the monarch will accept the elder into court so elves will actually get a voice regardless and compared to the monarch choice Queen Cousland >>>>>>>>>>>>Bann Tabris.



The Dalish unique option is setting aside a new land for the Dalish elves. If you don't kill the Dalish, they get land set aside for them anyway. IMO, that is redundant and pointless so the monarch choice is waaay better than this seeing as I doubt you would massacre the Dalish if you were Dalish anyway.



Both the Dwarf Origins have the option to ask for aid by Ferelden's monarch to aid in reclaiming thaigs (bhelen) or just supplies (harrowmont). They also become a paragon at the end. IMO,while technically becoming a Paragon should be awesome like becoming monarch of Ferelden, they do not even elaborate in the epilogue about what happens when you become Paragon. What if you made Harrowmont king but opposed his insular tactics? Doesn't matter because the game doesn't mention it seeing as it cuts off as soon as it mentions the assembly voted you in. Also cheapened by the fact that both dwarves origins essentially have the same epilogue regardless (IMO).



This is all my opinion so you are free to disagree and I assume you will.

[Face of Evil]

SilentAssassin, I view role-playing games as exercises in co-operative storytelling, and I stress the word
"co-operative." To make a successful RPG, the onus is as much on the player to participate in the campaign as it is on the DM to craft a compelling story.

Because no matter how much effort a DM puts into the campaign, there is no counter for the player who simply refuses to play along. You can throw a multitude of story hooks at them, but if they would rather sit in a tavern and stare into a mug of ale than brave dungeons, then there's nothing to be done with them. You have to either ignore them entirely or ask them to leave.

And that's what your point boils down to. "Well, if I wanted to play a character who isn't interested in stopping the Blight, then the game doesn't give me the incentive to actually stop the Blight." And you're right! You're absolutely correct!

But I look at that as the equivalent of painting yourself into a corner, which is really your own damn fault. It's up to you to find your motivation for participating in the story.

And that leads to my point about the HN origin. From the perspective of a character who does not care about the darkspawn, I'm saying that I find no more reason for an HN character to actually follow the plot of the game than a character from any other origin. If your sole motivation is to take vengeance on Howe, then there's no reason to continue with the "gather the armies" plot once the battle at Ostagar is finished, because you don't learn that Howe is allied with Loghain until after Lothering. Possibly well after, depending on where you go first. And even then, there's no way of knowing that you will ever face him. Logically, you should go straight for Howe's throat the second you get out of Lothering, saying "damn the Blight".

You go ahead and maintain your belief that the HN origin is the only origin that gives you the motivation to participate in the plot. But that's not my experience, and I don't think I'm part of a minority of players. My CE rogue was the only one I actually wanted to finish the game with, because I so strongly identified with that character. Out of all the characters I created, his desire to battle the Blight was the strongest, and I found those motivations within the origin itself.

You want to continue to argue with me, fine. But you're not going to convince me of your position. I can't act like you may be right because I believe fervently and wholeheartedly that you're wrong.

[silentassassin264]

You seem to be missing the point.  I was approving of DA2 giving a single origin because while you may have been fine with it, I was not fine with having an origin end with no motivation to stop the blight.  The thing is there is nothing wrong with the game  in this sense as the choice to not care about the blight can be perfectly fitting to the characters background.  The problem is I don't like that the story ends up being generic and you have a perfectly good reason to ignore it.  I am saying that would not happen if they have one origin (like DA2) and build the story all around that one character; therefore, I am approving of the limiting DA2 to one origin.  

Your point about the human noble is not lost. That is what I did. I went straight to Denerim and found out from Sergeant Kylon or the other guy that Howe is now Arl of Denerim and Loghain's right hand man. I needed the armies to oppose him and was willing to gather them to fight Howe and thus Loghain. Fighting the blight would just be the end result of that since they were actual gathered to fight the blight. Arl Eamon just shoots down my plan once I wake him up.

But your insistence that I am wrong is fine with me because I believe wholeheartedly that you are wrong. That is why I stopped responding to your posts because there is no way I am going to convince you of my beliefs and you are not going to convince me of your beliefs.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 20 novembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[Face of Evil]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I was approving of DA2 giving a single origin

Well, in that one respect I happen to agree with you. But your reasons for doing so are far different than mine, and because of that, you and I never going to see eye to eye, even if we're technically standing on the same side.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 20 novembre 2010 - 01:45 .

[Addai]

Thread still talking about how the only "real" way to play DAO is to play a Cousland? Unbelievable.

[Bullets McDeath]

Addai67 wrote...

Thread still talking about how the only "real" way to play DAO is to play a Cousland? Unbelievable.

The Force is strong with the Couslands. I can't remember the exact statistic (though I'd be happy to make one up0 but I remember seeing some of the feedback numbers from DA:O and a ridiculously overwhelming majority of people made Couslands. Far, far more than any other Origin. I believe Mage was second.

So, I feel your pain, but that is probably part of it.

[Ichogo]

Shadow Wing wrote...

I commented about this in the "Concerns and things you dont like...." topic so thought maybe it should have its own thread...What do you guys think of this? Personally I was really disappointed when I found out that you can only play as a human. I mean I'm still looking forward to this game but one of the highlights for me in origins was the ability to play different races and have different sides.

The two big reason I dislike this limitation is first you lose a bit of flexibility in repleability in the game. But that can be managed if the game is really interesting. Secondly, I worked hard on my origins saved games so that I made a particular race/faction a bit stronger  or something, I hoped that it would be transferable to the first game. From what I understand, decisions are still carried over to the second game but without the ability to play the other races, you don't seem to benefit from it. I mean playing only as a human, I would assume that you would be defending the human factions most of the time which is annoying since on my saved games I purposely made the decision to benefit other races aside from humans. But now that kinda disappears though. It also means you can't side with other factions now. I had the same problem in Mass effect actually, sometimes I actually agreed with the other races but since I was playing a human, I was supposed to defend humans.

I agree completely.
I mean, they way I see it, they are starting to make it look alot lik Mass Effect (Scroll wheel, human restriction so far are the top ones)
If they add good/evil points and the action time things, it would almost be a mideval Mass Effect.
And it is very tiring deffending the human race %99.999999 percent of the time

[Ichogo]

Addai67 wrote...

Thread still talking about how the only "real" way to play DAO is to play a Cousland? Unbelievable.

The only REAL way to play Dragon Age is YOUR way.
You do agree,no?

[Bullets McDeath]

Ichogo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Thread still talking about how the only "real" way to play DAO is to play a Cousland? Unbelievable.

The only REAL way to play Dragon Age is YOUR way.
You do agree,no?

I agree, except I would say MY way, other than that, totally agree :innocent:

Modifié par outlaworacle, 20 novembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[robotnist]

i actually do feel strongly about this issue even though I only played humans over and over in DAO. not by a total conscious choice, it just happened. i usually like to play character after mine own heart so to speak and when i was younger and not a big hairy meat bag i played elves EVERY chance i got.



now that i'm older, hairier and i retain more mass i like to play a race that reflect characteristics that are similar.



but, its just like every other game that only has a white male as a protagonist. and again here i am lucky, i am a white male so its easy for me to get into that character. but i think every game that is either RPG or allows for choices should have the option to be male or female, and black, white and everything in between.



so, personally it wont bother me too much that you can only play humans in DA2, but i am VERY disappointed especially because DA has basically taken on the mantle of the new D&D like license and for us not to be able to choose a race in a HUGE RPG IP like this is kinda mind blowing.



i know it allows for a much more colorful story and a fleshed out character, but its possible many of us would sacrifice some of that story for a few extra choices.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Now I really need to play SoZ.

You might have just moved it to the front of the queue.

You haven't? By all means, do. The game was knocked, quite unfairly IMHO, for trying to do something very different from what MotB did. But it did what it was trying to do pretty well.

Edit: the manual actually says "what you're holding might not be the game you're expecting."  Wonder if Bio will put that in DA2's manual.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 novembre 2010 - 05:23 .

[Addai]

Ichogo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Thread still talking about how the only "real" way to play DAO is to play a Cousland? Unbelievable.

The only REAL way to play Dragon Age is YOUR way.
You do agree,no?

That would be exactly the opposite of what I am saying.