443 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerivant]

Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

I refuse to play as a human. I refuse to play as one on Dragon Age Origins. I have elves or dwarves only.
The whole point of dungeons and dragons style games is diferent races. Diferent races, diferent resistances, diferent reactions, diferent story reactions etc.

You either never played DnD style games, or missed the point of them.

I feel sorry for you.

[Nerevar-as]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
 I really don´t think any DA will have anything other than human as PC unless VO gets cheaper and/or sound files change to ocupy less memory.

I don't see why this would be the case. If the sole race in DA3 is an Elf, that takes as much effort as DA2's sole main being a human.

Marketing. If they think, rightly or not, that most players will identify themselves better with a human, and there are resources for only one set, they´ll go for that one. Elf means not only changing some lines, but 2 new VOs and audio files for them.

[Nerivant]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
 I really don´t think any DA will have anything other than human as PC unless VO gets cheaper and/or sound files change to ocupy less memory.

I don't see why this would be the case. If the sole race in DA3 is an Elf, that takes as much effort as DA2's sole main being a human.

Marketing. If they think, rightly or not, that most players will identify themselves better with a human, and there are resources for only one set, they´ll go for that one. Elf means not only changing some lines, but 2 new VOs and audio files for them.

And extra hassel with DLC and additional content, another thing most people don't think about with new VO's.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Wulfram wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Economically; if the developers had chosen to allow all races as protagonist (Human, Dwarf, Elf), they would have had to do voice overs for 6 possible protagonist characters and would also have to account for the races as well, meaning multiple dialogue scripts for the individual protagonist based not only on gender, but on race as well.

One of many reasons for not doing voice over for the protagonist.

Yep. I'd much rather be able to play multiple races than to have a voiced character that is limited to being human. There appear to be a number of design decisions that "streamline" aka give the player fewer options just like ME2 did.

[Bryy_Miller]

But we're hypothesizing that there is only one race (Elven) for DA3. Since it's an Elf's story, every conversation would be built around your race. Just like how every conversation is built around Hawke being human. There would be no additional lines or new VAs because it would be a completely different game.

I think you somehow got the impression that we were talking about DA2.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 14 novembre 2010 - 10:57 .

[Nerivant]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Economically; if the developers had chosen to allow all races as protagonist (Human, Dwarf, Elf), they would have had to do voice overs for 6 possible protagonist characters and would also have to account for the races as well, meaning multiple dialogue scripts for the individual protagonist based not only on gender, but on race as well.

One of many reasons for not doing voice over for the protagonist.

Yep. I'd much rather be able to play multiple races than to have a voiced character that is limited to being human. There appear to be a number of design decisions that "streamline" aka give the player fewer options just like ME2 did.

Streamlining isn't neccesarily a bad thing.

[Dhraiauvessillus]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
 I really don´t think any DA will have anything other than human as PC unless VO gets cheaper and/or sound files change to ocupy less memory.

I don't see why this would be the case. If the sole race in DA3 is an Elf, that takes as much effort as DA2's sole main being a human.

Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

I refuse to play as a human. I refuse to play as one on Dragon Age Origins. I have elves or dwarves only.
The whole point of dungeons and dragons style games is diferent races. Diferent races, diferent resistances, diferent reactions, diferent story reactions etc. 
Baldurs Gate series has diferent races. Champions Of Norrath and Champions Return To Arms has diferent races.
That is the main thing about dnd style games.

You're going to need to explain how being able to pick your race is the most important aspect of a role playing game. Race is not a role. Race is race.

I like elves, dwarves and any other race but human. I never, ever play as them.
I buy a dnd style make your own character game I expect to play as whatever I want.
I expect at least 3 races.
If there was a Dragon Age online MMORG and you went in thinking yay, dnd online type game, lets make my elven warrior, and you found out there was only one race you would be pissed off and say wtf!

In DAO the race had a big impact on the plot. The reactions, conversation, how hard you have to intimidate or pursuade change with what race you are.
In short I like elves, dwarves and other races but I dont like humans.

If they made it dwarves or elves only I would buy it.

A whole load of options for dwarves or elves, dark dwarves, stone dwarves, dark elves, light elves, water elves etc would be awesome.

Modifié par Dhraiauvessillus, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:07 .

[upsettingshorts]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Yep. I'd much rather be able to play multiple races than to have a voiced character that is limited to being human. There appear to be a number of design decisions that "streamline" aka give the player fewer options just like ME2 did.

"Streamline" stands in here for "remove things I'd like in exchange for something that is only superficially simpler that someone else might like."

I'd much rather be able to play one race in a well-defined story with a voiceover than have the option to play multiple races that I would ignore because the differences are not compelling to me.

After doing all of the Origins, I simply checked up on what the differences for racial backgrounds were on the Dragon Age wiki and was underwhelmed.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[In Exile]

Hukari wrote...
I will admit, my using the word 'superficial' is entirely based upon my opinion. However, let me propose a hypothetical to you, or at least show you what I think this represents.

Let us take a sentence. Say... "There is a door here." Would that sentence be greatly improved by someone saying it? Or, would you rather have it be silent, and instead read "There is a large, elaborate stone door, covered in the ancient runes of some long-forgotten Dwarf clan in front of you. Behind it is the sound of many clawing and ravening beasts."

Or we could have a third option: someone says "Think they were overcompensating much?" and you get to see the door in front of you. Shocking as it may be, games are a visual medium and things can be shown, not described.

Now, one argues, "Well, why couldn't that be voice acted?". And, admittedly, it could. But, simply typing a line and putting it in game, and actually going out, hiring a voice actor, having him read those lines, puts the cost of that line several multiples more than what it would be. Thus, you have to make that voice actor you hire do more and more lines in a shorter amount of time, so you condense things; you remove choices and other options, you make sentences and dialogue shorter and more one-sentence banter.

The issue with your comparison is that one sentence is a statement, whereas the other is a description. A better analogy would be:

1) Would you rather have a choice of these three lines:
 [Cooperative] Everyone! We need to work toghether to survive.
 [Aggressive] Stand your ground! Kill the lot of them!
 [Sarcastic] Talk about being stuck between a rock and a muderous horde of eldrich creatures... Just not my day at all.

2) Would you rather have a choice of these seven lines, with the ability to pretend whatever irrelevant tone you wanted could be added:
   Let's get ready to fight!
   Everyone stay calm!
   Quick, defensive positions!
   I'll kill the lot of the myself!
   I refuse to die here!
   No, I don't want to die!
   This is horrible, someone help!
  

That, to me, reduces depth. Rather than being part of a Tolkienesque epic, we're now Joe Adventurer having conversations with Farmer MacGuffin about how he needs us to get us ten garnets. That, at least, is where I'm coming from.

I don't see it at all. Whether or not we're part of an epic, that's a question of visual direction, storytelling and aesthetic. It has nothing to do with whether or not we have VO.

Now, how does this relate to character origins vs. voice acting? Well, mainly in that character origins actually impacted the story. As a Dwarf Noble (like I was), you could even go so far as to have a family; a son. You could be named Paragon, and redeem your name. Whereas voice acting... didn't. I won't deny, voice acting is -nice- to have, but if it ever comes between adding more stuff to the story and adding more voice acting, I'm going to go with the one that adds more stuff to the story.

There's nothing to prevent this with VO. What will happen is that your dwarf paragon will only get 3 lines with the same tone and voice regardless of whatever playthrough you've got.

That's what VO adds, or takes away.

It's not VO that removes content - it's the cinematic scripting. That's something else entirely. Dragon Age got away with it because they didn't actually use very much cinematic anything - you just had talking heads for most of the game, with generic manerisms. ME/ME2 invested a lot more heavily in cinematic direction and unique sets (to create the immersive world) and that's what cut the game length.

[Nerivant]

Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
 I really don´t think any DA will have anything other than human as PC unless VO gets cheaper and/or sound files change to ocupy less memory.

I don't see why this would be the case. If the sole race in DA3 is an Elf, that takes as much effort as DA2's sole main being a human.

Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

I refuse to play as a human. I refuse to play as one on Dragon Age Origins. I have elves or dwarves only.
The whole point of dungeons and dragons style games is diferent races. Diferent races, diferent resistances, diferent reactions, diferent story reactions etc. 
Baldurs Gate series has diferent races. Champions Of Norrath and Champions Return To Arms has diferent races.
That is the main thing about dnd style games.

You're going to need to explain how being able to pick your race is the most important aspect of a role playing game. Race is not a role. Race is race.

I like elves, dwarves and any other race but human. I never, ever play as them.
I buy a dnd style make your own character game I expect to play as whatever I want.
I expect at least 3 races.
In DAO the race had a big impact on the plot. The reactions, conversation, how hard you have to intimidate or pursuade change with what race you are.
In short I like elves, dwarves and other races but I dont like humans.

That doesn't support your argument that DnD was created ONLY so that people could play a game as different races.

[Bryy_Miller]

Dhraiauvessillus wrote...

In DAO the race had a big impact on the plot. The reactions, conversation, how hard you have to intimidate or pursuade change with what race you are.
In short I like elves, dwarves and other races but I dont like humans.

Okay. But you do realize that video games are scripted, right? That Origins did not actually react in real time to your race?

Okay, that was a bit snarky, but I find it extremely ironic that people that are all about plot are put off by the fact that Hawke being a human is a plot device.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

A lot of the times, companies don't want a background actor doing a double-voice as a main. You run into situations where Nolan North ends up talking to himself. Also, take into mind that Origins had 144 voice actors (or something in that range). This all brings up the idea that BioWare is striving for a breathing, individual world.

All well and fine, except that the main actor voicing multiple characters isn't the issue here. What I meant is a single actor for all male Hawkes and another for all female Hawkes, regardless of race.

Those "few additional lines", if you think about it, wouldn't be "a few". If we're talking about a 20-hour game, do you realize how many racial references there would be? That's not even taking into account all the branches of dialogue regarding race.

David Gaider has already implied that there is already quite a bit more dialogue for Hawke than the Warden, considering things like the Personality System.

Like I mentioned before, there may be moments during the course of the story where Hawke being a non-human simply wouldn't make sense. I just don't know how many such moments there will be, hence throwing in that "a few" there liberally. I have no strong argument here. May be a few or a great many. My only reference is Origins at that point, and race-dependent variances in NPC responses were handled appropriately in there. I think that's enough reason to assume it can be handled in DA2 as well.

Then there comes into play the fact that, since different races have different anatomy, the voices will be different. Dwarves are so gruff because they are so compact, for instance.

That's not very convincing, from where I'm standing. You have Murdock and then you have Harrowmont. Iona and then Mardy. I think an actor playing a human Hawke can also voice a non-human Hawke just as well.

Including different races for Hawke doesn't just affect VA. It affects armor, facial customization, and animation as well. Then you'd need to modify Hawke's entire family.

No arguments here, though the point is beyond the scope of my query. I'm just asking why VA specifically is considered an excuse for excluding non-human options for Hawke.

What you're basically asking them to do is to start over on the game, which is not very reasonable, you know?

Not really, no. Again, I'm asking why VA is counted among reasons as to Hawke's racial restriction by some forum posters.

Modifié par Ortaya Alevli, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[upsettingshorts]

Here's the rub:



Bioware says that the story of Hawke is a human story. Whether or not this is because they decided to go with a voiceover and then wrote based on that, or decided to go with a single protagonist then add a voiceover is irrelevant. That is the idea we're being sold: Hawke's story is a human one.



Now, that means that until the game is released and we actually play it ourselves, we have to take Bioware's word for it or not. If we are, then we simply wait and see. If we aren't, we create conspiracy threads on the Bioware forums.



If we play the game and it turns out Hawke's humanity is significantly relevant, than it can't possibly be labeled a streamlining or dumbing down move, because it had an objective payoff - a tighter narrative that related to the protagonist more. If it turns out that an elf or dwarf could have stood in reasonably well for Hawke within the story, then all the arguments against removing character race choice will be supported by the facts.



Until then, it's just mostly whining and/or pretending that Bioware is lying to us.

[Bryy_Miller]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
 I'm just asking why VA specifically is considered an excuse for excluding non-human options for Hawke.

As you have stated that you understand Hawke is human for plot reasons, I'm going to assume that you just want to pick an eFight, and I bid you good day, sir.

[ForceXev]

It's really a matter of taste, because I'm happy to sacrifice playing different races to have a voiced protagonist. The best example of why is in DA:O when you're about to start the final battle against the darkspawn, and Alistair gives the Big Damn Hero Speech before the battle instead of the game's main character (your character). It works OK since Alistair just became King (in my playthrough, anyway) but really it should be the player's character who has that big cinematic hero/leader moment. And yes they can do it by having you cycle through things to say, but the cinematic moment is certainly lost if the scene is reduced to you clicking things and then just hearing the cheers of the crowd.



In a perfect world, we would have the option to play Elf and Dwarf as well as Human, and there would be 6 different voice actors recording all of the lines. But it's just not realistic.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
 I'm just asking why VA specifically is considered an excuse for excluding non-human options for Hawke.

As you have stated that you understand Hawke is human for plot reasons, I'm going to assume that you just want to pick an eFight, and I bid you good day, sir.

...

A good day to you, too, then.

[Sharn01]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
 I'm just asking why VA specifically is considered an excuse for excluding non-human options for Hawke.

Its only part of it, and its actually new VO not VA, the same Actor can still do all the dialog for the other races, but its a different sound file for them and all the NPC's interacting with them everytime race becomes an issue in the dialog.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I imagine it would be too expensive to hire seperate voice actors for all the races.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Sharn01 wrote...

Its only part of it, and its actually new VO not VA, the same Actor can still do all the dialog for the other races, but its a different sound file for them and all the NPC's interacting with them everytime race becomes an issue in the dialog.

Can you elaborate? Like, what kind of an issue? As I mentioned, Origins handled any race-dependent differences by adding extra lines and it worked well enough. Do you think an additional problem would arise in DA2?

[In Exile]

If Bethany being a mage matters, Hawke at least couldn't be a dwarf. I mean, I suppose, sure, you could go via some weird family adoption route where they raise whatever race baby is around, but then that introduces the idea of setting breaking tolerance.

[In Exile]

ForceXev wrote...

It's really a matter of taste, because I'm happy to sacrifice playing different races to have a voiced protagonist. The best example of why is in DA:O when you're about to start the final battle against the darkspawn, and Alistair gives the Big Damn Hero Speech before the battle instead of the game's main character (your character). It works OK since Alistair just became King (in my playthrough, anyway) but really it should be the player's character who has that big cinematic hero/leader moment. And yes they can do it by having you cycle through things to say, but the cinematic moment is certainly lost if the scene is reduced to you clicking things and then just hearing the cheers of the crowd.

In a perfect world, we would have the option to play Elf and Dwarf as well as Human, and there would be 6 different voice actors recording all of the lines. But it's just not realistic.

The worst part about that Big Damn Hero Speech is that it isn't really about the battle - it's about how awesome the Warden is. It was so cheesy, because Alistair was basically gushing over how incredible the Warden was. He was 3 seconds away from writing a love letter to you.

[Sharn01]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Its only part of it, and its actually new VO not VA, the same Actor can still do all the dialog for the other races, but its a different sound file for them and all the NPC's interacting with them everytime race becomes an issue in the dialog.

Can you elaborate? Like, what kind of an issue? As I mentioned, Origins handled any race-dependent differences by adding extra lines and it worked well enough. Do you think an additional problem would arise in DA2?

I dont agree with the justification, its probably the change I dislike most about DA2, I was simply stating what it would take for more races, and why its part of the reason they left them out.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Sharn01 wrote...

I dont agree with the justification, its probably the change I dislike most about DA2, I was simply stating what it would take for more races, and why its part of the reason they left them out.

Alright, thanks all the same.

[darkrose]

I'm not gonna lie: I'm disappointed. Despite my icon (which is my Orlesian WC), the only origin I've completed the game with has been my City Elf--twice so far and working on a third playthrough.



For me, playing an elf means actually playing a character who's experiences in some way reflect my own. When the blacksmith in Redcliffe said, "You didn't sound like an elf through the door" I died laughing, because if I had a dollar for every time I've gone to a job interview and had someone stare because I don't "sound black" on the phone I could retire comfortably. It wasn't perfect, but Bioware did an excellent job with making the City Elf origin a fairly realistic look at being an ethnic minority, and I'm very sorry to see that gone.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

I don't really care one way or the other. It was nice being able to play as different races, and to have the world react to it, but ultimately it didn't play a huge part in my enjoyment of the game.