443 réponses à ce sujet

[Itkovian]

It seems to me that the reason human is the only option, is because our "origin" plays a strong role in the storyline.

After all, we have several family members already revealed, as is our point of origin.

So if their story is to make sense, which involves fleeing Lothering with our family, it makes sense that we would be human. Furthermore, they probably didn't want to make up 3 sets of family members just to cater for different races.

It also makes their cinematic dialogue much easier to handle, as the animators no longer have to worry about having a shorter/taller main PC (beyond the male/female difference, if any).



Consider just how many cinematic scenes our main characters got actually involved in during DAO. You'll find that there are very few in which our PCs actually take action, and each are shot in such a way as to reduce our interaction with other characters. A big part of that is to avoid having to re-animate those scenes for shorter or taller characters.

With a more uniform main character, the animators can go ahead and make much more "active" cutscenes, much like ME2. Heck, that's probably a large part of why NPCs only wear predefined outfits now. Makes the animator's jobs that much easier.

Hopefully, it will be worth it.

Itkovian

[Ortaya Alevli]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Then again, I'm yet to hear why some people think voiceover is the cause of, or one of the factors causing, the racial restriction in DA2.

Oh, I think its's contributory. You could get away with the same voice across three races, but it would be far from ideal.

And you just know people would have complained about it.

Right, I know how people can get... I'm actually amazed people didn't make a fuss of a dark-skinned Shepard not sounding black or a Shepard with Asian features not sounding Asian.

Or did they?

[In Exile]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Right, I know how people can get... I'm actually amazed people didn't make a fuss of a dark-skinned Shepard not sounding black or a Shepard with Asian features not sounding Asian.

Or did they?

Yup. This is actually a common complaint. Or that white Shepard sounds Canadian instead of southern or Russian or British or whatever.

[Ortaya Alevli]

In Exile wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Right, I know how people can get... I'm actually amazed people didn't make a fuss of a dark-skinned Shepard not sounding black or a Shepard with Asian features not sounding Asian.

Or did they?

Yup. This is actually a common complaint. Or that white Shepard sounds Canadian instead of southern or Russian or British or whatever.

You'd think people would at least try to make some sense while complaning.

On second thought, scratch that.

Modifié par Ortaya Alevli, 16 novembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Sharn01]

Sir JK wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I disagree, at least on the duster part. Playing both Duster rogue and Human warrior to completion, the differences in Orzammar are notable. Not game-shaking, but they do make ripples.

Okay, Fair enough. I guess I did make a bit too absolute a statement. There are some differences, but overall the changes between every one of them is fairly small.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want the race choice to be a narrative focus. I want a profoundly different narrative if I am a human, an elf or a dwarf. I want it to truly affect things. Not just one or two things, but in just about every encounter (except where it makes sense that it doesn't).

If you are a city elf, then you should be a second class citzen. Rich people will expect you to be a thief, soldiers expecting you to be a coward, authorities you to be a servant. That many merchants refuse to deal with you, That major npc direct themselves to your human or dwarven partymembers as the leaders of the party (and then being surprised when being told that the elf is).
I'd also want that the story takes on themes that are very central to elves. Such as home, community, prejudice and stuff like that.

Same thing for dwarves. That humans would treat you differently, as if you're a strange thing. Constantly bothering you about questions about your home, assuming incorrect things. Going to great pains to acquire one of those absolutely horrific dwarven ales for your benefit  at feats(even if you'd prefer a wine).
That the game takes on themes of caste, duty, family and being alien.

Basically that the entire game reacts to your race choice. Not just a few bits here and there.
If a game does that I'll support race choices forever, if it doesn't I support that with adds the most to the narrative.

Then you are basically consenting to never playing anything but human ever again in a video game from bioware.  They will not make a game dedicated soley to a race other then human, the only way you will ever play a non human race is if its an option when  human is also available.

[Drasanil]

I think being cut to humans only is a major disappointment. I never gave a rats arse about humans in fantasy games for the same reasons I never cared about vanilla when going to Baskin Robbins, humans are bland everyday and specifically unfantastic. Hell I couldn't finish the Witcher, or the Human Noble Origin for that matter, because I honestly didn't care about the protagonist, I was more interested in the elves and dwarves.

I also think we're "focussing on the story" is a sham, the way I see there are two potential stories. Either it's the Champion's story or it's Hawke's story.

If it is the former, as seems to be the indication given that Bioware said you aren't even referred to as Hawke most of the time, then there really is not plausible reason to cut out elves and dwarves. With minimal effort, a judicial use of punctuation and a few extra throw away lines the story could likely be adapted from human to elven or dwarven.

Similarily if it is Hawke's Story and is really ment to focus on his awesomeness, why include gender, name, appearance or class options? After all these are just superfluous and drain resources away from making an even more "focussed and detailed" adventure where the story of "the most important person in Thedas" is told.

Modifié par Drasanil, 16 novembre 2010 - 10:45 .

[Sharn01]

Drasanil wrote...

I think being cut to humans only is a major disappointment. I never gave a rats arse about humans in fantasy games for the same reasons I never cared about vanilla when going to Baskin Robbins, humans are bland everyday and specifically unfantastic. Hell I couldn't finish the Witcher, or the Human Noble Origin for that matter, because I honestly didn't care about the protagonist, I was more interested in the elves and dwarves.

I also think we're "focussing on the story" is a sham, the way I see there are two potential stories. Either it's the Champion's story or it's Hawke's story.

If it is the former, as seems to be the indication given that Bioware said you aren't even referred to as Hawke most of the time, then there really is not plausible reason to cut out elves and dwarves. With minimal effort, a judicial use of punctuation and a few extra throw away lines the story could likely be adapted from human to elven or dwarven.

Similarily if it is Hawke's Story and is really ment to focus on his awesomeness, why include gender, name, appearance or class options? After all these are just superfluous and drain resources away from making an even more "focussed and detailed" adventure where the story of "the most important person in Thedas" is told.

That is my biggest fear actually in regards to the changes, I prefer to play non humans, but the reasons listed for it would be just as valid as the reasons to have a preset character of one sex and class, after all, once you remove all choice from the player you can have a much tighter and cohesive story.  Of course since most players will always identify with the male human warrior/soldier, that will be what you will play in every game.  Think of how much better the game will be, having only one voice actor for the protagonist will allow us to double the amount of dialogue he has!

[Ziggeh]

Drasanil wrote...

With minimal effort, a judicial use of punctuation and a few extra throw away lines the story could likely be adapted from human to elven or dwarven.

Minimal effort, like 6 extra models and a change to how the game handles armour.

As I've said, I think it's evident there are mutliple reasons, building in a family plot is just one of them.

[Stick668]

Sharn01 wrote...

the reasons listed for it would be just as valid as the reasons to have a preset character of one sex and class, after all, once you remove all choice from the player you can have a much tighter and cohesive story.

You're right, the validity is equal. And games with a completely predefined character can be awesome.

Is it going to happen in this case?

1) (Slippery Slope) If they change anything, they might as well change everything.
2) (Tinfoil) It's all part of the custard-lover conspiracy to make whipped cream obsolete.
3) (Intimidate) Shut up, fanperson / casual scum.
4) (Patronize) You Bioware apologists are so cute.
5) (Reiterate) Once you remove all choice from the player you can have a much tighter and cohesive story! 
6) (Strawman) You must be a 14-year-old with ADD. 
7) (Wax Nostalgic) I remember back in the Palaeozoic Era when they made proper games.
8) (Binary) There are 10 kinds of people in the world. 
9) (Make Sense) Probably not?

Enough options for you?

[Morroian]

Drasanil wrote...

If it is the former, as seems to be the indication given that Bioware said you aren't even referred to as Hawke most of the time, then there really is not plausible reason to cut out elves and dwarves. With minimal effort, a judicial use of punctuation and a few extra throw away lines the story could likely be adapted from human to elven or dwarven.

Under that scenario there would essentially be no difference between the different races so what would the point.

As for the story my reading is that its Hawke's story not a generic story of the Champion.

[Drasanil]

ziggehunderslash wrote...Minimal effort, like 6 extra models and a change to how the game handles armour.

You mean 4 extra models for races that are already there in game? That's a load of bull and you know it, we already know there are dwarves and elves in game they just decided to cut out your ability to play as one and honestly if mods are anything to go by resizing armor really isn't all that hard.

Morroian wrote...
Under that scenario there would essentially be no difference between the different races so what would the point.

Maybe, maybe not, but then again I've rarely seen a game where playing a human PC is an abosolute must as opposed to simply an after thought or the percieved "default option". Like I said, with a judicious use of punctuation and a few extra lines here and there, having an elf or dwarf would hardly be a challenge and if done right, that mimimum of extra effort would make the experience feel different. 

Hell for roughly 50% more VO plus a bit, they could have cut out fem-Hawke and given us three predifined characters for the game, wanna talk about wasting perfectly good resources on something that roughly amounts to the same thing well there you go

As for the story my reading is that its Hawke's story not a generic story of the Champion.

I don't mean to be rude or anything so please don't take it that way, but from what I've seen so far I get the impression Hawke is exactly some boring generic rags to riches champion and Bioware is simply pretending otherwise to hide the fact they've basicly cut out a whole bunch of stuff and are just rushing out a game to capatilise on the DA franchise when they still haven't fixed the first game they release under it.

[Aermas]

@ Drasanil. They would have to hire & write story for six characters, have to change Bethany, Carver, & Mamma Hawke three different times. Write different responses for NPCs based on your race, etc.



It's more work than you think

[Ziggeh]

Drasanil wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...Minimal effort, like 6 extra models and a change to how the game handles armour.

You mean 4 extra models for races that are already there in game? That's a load of bull and you know it, we already know there are dwarves and elves in game they just decided to cut out your ability to play as one and honestly if mods are anything to go by resizing armor really isn't all that hard.

No, I mean 6. Hawke has a family.

Part of the reason (does everybody see everything in isolation? it does seems to confuse an awful lot of folk) for static companion armour is presumably to reduce the amount work needed to ensure all the armours work with all the models, and that all the models don't need to use the same frame.

So yeah, being human is linked to almost all the changes they've made. So, no, they probably didn't just cut the choice out of spite.

[Drasanil]

Aermas wrote...

@ Drasanil. They would have to hire & write story for six characters,

If it's the Champion's story as opposed to Hawke's  story they wouldn't really need too in addition you could use the same VOs for all the protagonists and simply record a few extra lines, same with the NPCs a few extra sentences here and there and you're golden.

have to change Bethany, Carver, & Mamma Hawke three different times. Write different responses for NPCs based on your race, etc.

Who says a dwarf or elf would have sibblings, or that if they did that they'd play as prominant a role as Hawke's?

It's more work than you think

I realise it's some extra work, but no where near as much as Bioware and some people are pretending especially if you take into account they're already set to release a new games for March 2011 when they haven't even finished patching DAO. You'd think they could have waited a bit and not cut out a whole bunch of stuff. How else do you explain mages suddenly being allergic to swords or warriors forgetting how to wield two axes at the same time.

Then there's also the consideration that it's simply easier to do it this way and that if we don't make a big stink about it, dwarven and elven options will be gone for good except as trashy DLC a la Lelianna's Song and we'll be stuck with Hawke-clones for all potential DA successor games.

Modifié par Drasanil, 17 novembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[Piecake]

I don't mean to be rude or anything so please don't take it that way, but from what I've seen so far I get the impression Hawke is exactly some boring generic rags to riches champion and Bioware is simply pretending otherwise to hide the fact they've basicly cut out a whole bunch of stuff and are just rushing out a game to capatilise on the DA franchise when they still haven't fixed the first game they release under it.

That may well be the case, but I have no idea how idea you can come to that conclusion based on how little information we have, especially when in comes to story

[Drasanil]

Piecake wrote...
That may well be the case, but I have no idea how idea you can come to that conclusion based on how little information we have, especially when in comes to story

Honsestly, because Bioware hasn't made even the slightest case for it to be otherwise. If Hawke being human were that crucial to the story and it was actually compelling they'd be flooding us with promos about it and trumpetting it up to the Nth degree as opposed to simply playing the whole we had to cut it out to focus one something else card and pretending to be sincere about it.

Modifié par Drasanil, 17 novembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Ziggeh]

Drasanil wrote...
Honsestly, because Bioware hasn't made even the slightest case for it to be otherwise. If Hawke being human were that crucial to the story and it was actually compelling they'd be flooding us with promos about it and trumpetting it up to the Nth degree as opposed to simply playing the whole we had to cut it out to focus one something else card and pretending to be sincere about it.

What are you suggesting is their reasoning?

[Aermas]

Drasanil wrote...

Aermas wrote...

@ Drasanil. They would have to hire & write story for six characters,

If it's the Champion's story as opposed to Hawke's  story they wouldn't really need too in addition you could use the same VOs for all the protagonists and simply record a few extra lines, same with the NPCs a few extra sentences here and there and you're golden.

have to change Bethany, Carver, & Mamma Hawke three different times. Write different responses for NPCs based on your race, etc.

Who says a dwarf or elf would have sibblings, or that if they did that they'd play as prominant a role as Hawke's?

It's more work than you think

I realise it's some extra work, but no where near as much as Bioware and some people are pretending especially if you take into account they're already set to release a new games for March 2011 when they haven't even finished patching DAO. You'd think they could have waited a bit and not cut out a whole bunch of stuff. How else do you explain mages suddenly being allergic to swords or warriors forgetting how to wield two axes at the same time.

Then there's also the consideration that it's simply easier to do it this way and that if we don't make a big stink about it, dwarven and elven options will be gone for good except as trashy DLC a la Lelianna's Song and we'll be stuck with Hawke-clones for all potential DA successor games.

(Ferelden)Humans speak in British accents
(Dalish) Elves speak in Welsh accents
Dwarves speak in American accents

So you would need 6 different VO's

After that what the hell do you do with two important companions? (Hawke's siblings)

[Piecake]

Drasanil wrote...

Piecake wrote...
That may well be the case, but I have no idea how idea you can come to that conclusion based on how little information we have, especially when in comes to story

Honsestly, because Bioware hasn't made even the slightest case for it to be otherwise. If Hawke being human were that crucial to the story and it was actually compelling they'd be flooding us with promos about it and trumpetting it up to the Nth degree as opposed to simply playing the whole we had to cut it out to focus one something else card and pretending to be sincere about it.

why would they spoil their own game's story?

[Drasanil]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
No, I mean 6. Hawke has a family.

Who is to say that potential elf and dwarf have a family? And even they did and we were to assume they were of the same composition as Hawke's what simply stops them from porting over the face data? It's not like every one in game has a unique model. Furthermore, if you want to stretch it that far at best these "unique" models would simply be a mix and match of 6 or 7 predetermined model parts.

Part of the reason (does everybody see everything in isolation? it does seems to confuse an awful lot of folk) for static companion armour is presumably to reduce the amount work needed to ensure all the armours work with all the models, and that all the models don't need to use the same frame.

As I said, resizing armour isn't all that hard, you've already got most of the work down, the rest involves squewing the hieght and wieght ratios.

So yeah, being human is linked to almost all the changes they've made. So, no, they probably didn't just cut the choice out of spite.

None of the changes made so far have really presented a "human only" case. it's less work yes, but it's not that much more work to make a dwarven or elven option, especially when you consider they feel ready to release a new game when the old one isn't even patched to proper functionality.

Aermas wrote...
(Ferelden)Humans speak in British accents
(Dalish) Elves speak in Welsh accents
Dwarves speak in American accents

So you would need 6 different VO's

Accents are regional features not racial ones, using the same VOs is pretty easy to rationalise.

After that what the hell do you do with two important companions? (Hawke's siblings)

See above. Futher more who is say that "elf" or "dwarf" need to have the exact same family unit as human? DAO manged to do with out.

Piecake wrote...
why would they spoil their own game's story?

No more than they currently spoiled it by revealing that Hawke becomes the champion of Kirkwall and the single most important person evar!!1!1eleven!! As I said Marketing, if Hawke being human-only was such a huge boon to the story and the game than they'd be using to pimp the stuff out of their game instead of quietly announcing it at the start and pretending like they haven't really cut anything out.

[Weiser_Cain]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dodok wrote...
Anyway I'm waiting for Bioware to give me a good dwarven reason for this lack of races in DA2.

A wizard did it.

You are the ender of conversations, you're not allowed to participate.

[Aermas]

Drasanil, you are proposing to eliminate two important companions from the game, & then to fill their place to add two companions per race. Then you are proposing to use the same voice actors for everyone yet the separate races do not talk alike. Not to mention throw a huge wrench in the gears for the story. But every NPC will have to change the way they talk to you if you are a dwarf or a elf or a human. In short you will be adding on roughly 65% more content.

[Piecake]

Drasanil wrote...

No more than they currently spoiled it by revealing that Hawke becomes the champion of Kirkwall and the single most important person evar!!1!1eleven!! As I said Marketing, if Hawke being human-only was such a huge boon to the story and the game than they'd be using to pimp the stuff out of their game instead of quietly announcing it at the start and pretending like they haven't really cut anything out.

DA2 is using a framed narrative.  Youll likely find out that Hawke is the champinion of Kirkwall in the first few minutes of the game

[In Exile]

Drasanil wrote...

Who says a dwarf or elf would have sibblings, or that if they did that they'd play as prominant a role as Hawke's?

Well, the writers. And you, since I thought your argument only had to do with the models being cut for little reason, since the story could totally incorporate a dwarf protagonist. Now you're saying it can't?