443 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Drasanil wrote...
You mean 4 extra models for races that are already there in game? That's a load of bull and you know it, we already know there are dwarves and elves in game they just decided to cut out your ability to play as one and honestly if mods are anything to go by resizing armor really isn't all that hard.

Whooo there goes another kitten. Tsk.

Honestly, people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't make such sweeping statements.

Consider what you already know: the PC is the only character who is going to be actively swapping multiple armor models throughout the game. If you're only looking for one reason, there it is-- and it's no small one. And "resizing" the armor is simplifying the issue... it's work, and multiplied across all equippable armors in the game, times 2. We could do that work, but where would you like it to come from? Which enemy creatures, follower appearances and NPC armor models would you like to cut? None, I assume, but there are limited resources to divide considering the short timeframe we have to make the game.

Just add more time? Yes, that would be nice-- but that's not what we're doing. We could make a smaller game or have less variety in appearances for the PC, I suppose, but the trade-off has to come from somewhere.

And that's only if you look at this one aspect. There are others. I don't expect you to know them, or even care about them really, but if you don't I wouldn't suggest speaking out of ignorance either and chalking up a decision you don't like to laziness on our part. At the very least, have compassion for the kittens.

[Ziggeh]

Drasanil wrote...

None of the changes made so far have really presented a "human only" case. it's less work yes, but it's not that much more work to make a dwarven or elven option, especially when you consider they feel ready to release a new game when the old one isn't even patched to proper functionality.

Hawke has a family, and not just as characters, some of them are companions. Who's to say a dwarf or elf have a family? That. His father and sister are mages. That's going to make dwarves problematic. One assumes being an apostate, or having a close apostate companion with you will be a part of the story, what with walking into templar central and all.

They start in lothering during it's destruction, tying it to the previous game and reintroducing the blight. Problematic to replicate with other races, but I suppose it depends on how much work you think making a unique origin involves.

They could "get away" with only two voice overs, but is getting away with things what you want? Or something you think you'd want as a developer?

I already mentioned the model problems, but I won't expand as that is rather based on assumptions. edit: which were neatly confirmed as I was writing!

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 17 novembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Talon_Wu]

Drasanil wrote...

Hell for roughly 50% more VO plus a bit, they could have cut out fem-Hawke and given us three predifined characters for the game, wanna talk about wasting perfectly good resources on something that roughly amounts to the same thing well there you go

I'm rather glad you're not in charge. Conversely, they could cut man-Hawke and get the same effect.

Drasanil wrote...

No more than they currently spoiled it by revealing that Hawke becomes the champion of Kirkwall and the single most important person evar!!1!1eleven!!

They wouldn't have released that kind of information if becoming Champion was the be-all and end-all of the story. After all, we knew we became Warden in DAO, and we were supposed to save the world, but not about things like the FS or DR, nor about most of the middle of the game. That you become the game's hero is hardly a spoiler. It's not very exciting to play "Hawke, Third Beggar on the Left" for 40 hours.

[Ziggeh]

Talon_Wu wrote...
That you become the game's hero is hardly a spoiler.

The funny thing is, the quote he was responding to meant spoiled as in ruined.

Talon_Wu wrote...
It's not very exciting to play "Hawke, Third Beggar on the Left" for 40 hours.

Begging mini game? You "probe" the crowd for cash, and get a little waveform bar to indicate intention to give.

[In Exile]

Talon_Wu wrote...

That you become the game's hero is hardly a spoiler. It's not very exciting to play "Hawke, Third Beggar on the Left" for 40 hours.

Ah, you missed the original nerd rage. No, the proper insult is "Hawke the Peasant Coward," because you see, Hawke fled from Lothering due to cowardice. The gameplay mechanic is the Beg For Your Life ™ system, where every time you press a button, an awesome grovelling action happens.

[Daryn Mercio]

I want almost all of our companions to be non human, just because, but I don't mind being only human. I could never get the male elf face just right, and playing as a dwarf always bothered me because of the height difference. I always think "Morrigan thinks everyone subservient to her, especially non-humans, so why would she date a man half her size?"

[Talon_Wu]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Talon_Wu wrote...
It's not very exciting to play "Hawke, Third Beggar on the Left" for 40 hours.

Begging mini game? You "probe" the crowd for cash, and get a little waveform bar to indicate intention to give.

:oThat sounds disturbingly like planet scanning. I vote no. *shudder*

In Exile wrote...

Ah, you missed the original nerd rage.

No, I tried to ignore it.

Modifié par Talon_Wu, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[Stick668]

Drasanil wrote (emphasis mine)...

Like I said, with a judicious use of punctuation and a few extra lines here and there, having an elf or dwarf (Hawke) wouldhardly be a challenge and if done right, that mimimum of extra effort would make the experience feel different.

 
I wouldn't normally do this, but...



(And on this day, I become a proper citizen of the internet.)

Modifié par Stick668, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Ziggeh]

Oh, for a turn based rpg.

[Shadow Wing]

Blessed Silence wrote...

Never bothered me at all, so I don't know what the big deal is.

I mean, sure you had about what .. an hour worth of different Origin stories then all just melded together with an occasional different way to be spoken to or side story?

If they made the ENTIRE story different for each Origin I can see about complaining.

Besides, I think playing a good and evil Hawke is enough for me just as I did for Shepard. Nothing like punching out people and slamming them against a wall.

I understand but sometimes its not about the amount of change ithe game gives you but rather what kind of character you are playing, for example, I dont like humans in this world, I find them culturally dull and annoyingly ignorant so i rather not play one. That said, so why not have the main character an elf, dwarf or qunari rather than human.

[Bryy_Miller]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Drasanil wrote...
Honsestly, because Bioware hasn't made even the slightest case for it to be otherwise. If Hawke being human were that crucial to the story and it was actually compelling they'd be flooding us with promos about it and trumpetting it up to the Nth degree as opposed to simply playing the whole we had to cut it out to focus one something else card and pretending to be sincere about it.

What are you suggesting is their reasoning?

Don't you know? Developers lie all the time. They don't know why. They just do.

Also, they steal.

(This post is in good fun and I am in no way equating fan rage to racism)

[Atakuma]

Shadow Wing wrote...

Blessed Silence wrote...

Never bothered me at all, so I don't know what the big deal is.

I mean, sure you had about what .. an hour worth of different Origin stories then all just melded together with an occasional different way to be spoken to or side story?

If they made the ENTIRE story different for each Origin I can see about complaining.

Besides, I think playing a good and evil Hawke is enough for me just as I did for Shepard. Nothing like punching out people and slamming them against a wall.

I understand but sometimes its not about the amount of change ithe game gives you but rather what kind of character you are playing, for example, I dont like humans in this world, I find them culturally dull and annoyingly ignorant so i rather not play one. That said, so why not have the main character an elf, dwarf or qunari rather than human.

Marketing probably

[MadLaughter]

ME2 had both static models for everyone in the game and an incredibly limited armor selection in the base game for Shepard. I wonder where the trade-off went there.

[Shadow Wing]

Stick668 wrote...


It's a good question. In one way, I think a lot of people would see having to play a dwarf or an elf as more of an imposition than getting stuck with a human. Humans are the No-Name Brand of fantasy races, after all.

Consider the... well, in tv/movies you'd call it the "POV character". John Crichton, astronaut, goes "What the holy heck is that?" and both he and the viewer gets an answer. Having a recognizable type of character to identify with helps, when the surroundings are unfamiliar. Putting a strange character in the lead role places higher demands on the viewer, or in this case, player. It can be a huuuge kick getting to play an alien or an obscure, plane-crossing race, but it also demands a detailed knowledge of the setting beforehand. (Or, in the case of Planescape: Torment, a particularly patient and inquisitive mindset.)

Quite a few of us would probably not mind being a strange one in a strange land. But it's generally not practical for the purposes of mass culture.

I agree wholeheartedly, most people would rather play as a human since it is far more familiar, I mean I won't mind playing an elf or qunari actually but I do understand how most people would feel...thats why I think dragon age will probably only have a human-only main character from now on.

[Atakuma]

MadLaughter wrote...

ME2 had both static models for everyone in the game and an incredibly limited armor selection in the base game for Shepard. I wonder where the trade-off went there.

What does that have to do with DA2?

[AlanC9]

Atakuma wrote...

MadLaughter wrote...

ME2 had both static models for everyone in the game and an incredibly limited armor selection in the base game for Shepard. I wonder where the trade-off went there.

What does that have to do with DA2?

Presumably it's a response to David Gaider's post about resource tradeoffs. 

[Ziggeh]

MadLaughter wrote...

ME2 had both static models for everyone in the game and an incredibly limited armor selection in the base game for Shepard. I wonder where the trade-off went there.

You probably know this already, but I feel the need to make the point anyhow, it's becoming something of a personal annoyance for me:

It's not as simple as that. Development resources aren't a fixed transferable quantity. Stop seeing things in isolation.

[Shadow Wing]

David Gaider wrote...

Consider what you already know: the PC is the only character who is going to be actively swapping multiple armor models throughout the game. If you're only looking for one reason, there it is-- and it's no small one. And "resizing" the armor is simplifying the issue... it's work, and multiplied across all equippable armors in the game, times 2. We could do that work, but where would you like it to come from? Which enemy creatures, follower appearances and NPC armor models would you like to cut? None, I assume, but there are limited resources to divide considering the short timeframe we have to make the game.

Just add more time? Yes, that would be nice-- but that's not what we're doing. We could make a smaller game or have less variety in appearances for the PC, I suppose, but the trade-off has to come from somewhere.

And that's only if you look at this one aspect. There are others. I don't expect you to know them, or even care about them really, but if you don't I wouldn't suggest speaking out of ignorance either and chalking up a decision you don't like to laziness on our part. At the very least, have compassion for the kittens.

I perfectly understand and agree, and I can certainly see why having a single type of race for the main character would be better for the developers and the game itself but it does bring up an earlier question I had, does this mean future dragon age games would now only have human-only main characters? Would Bioware even consider having say an elf as the protagonist? I can certainly understand why most people would rather have a human main character but the main limitation for having a single race is for the story/character development and the workload/economics of the game developers, it does not however limit it to being human, it could be any race I think. I'm honestly quite curious about this question, I mean I would still buy the games since Bioware do make quality games whatever the limitation but even the novels you wrote have humans as main characters with elf or dwarves as secondary characters so I'm quite interested if that is the direction Bioware is now taking.

[David Gaider]

Shadow Wing wrote...
I perfectly understand and agree, and I can certainly see why having a single type of race for the main character would be better for the developers and the game itself but it does bring up an earlier question I had, does this mean future dragon age games would now only have human-only main characters?

Not necessarily. It depends on the time and resources we have available for the project in question and where we want to spend them. The decision for DA2 was both a resource-based and creative decision, but we're not saying "this is the DA standard from this point on"-- not for anything. It works for this project.

Would Bioware even consider having say an elf as the protagonist?

You mean as a sole protaganist? Sure, I suppose, if we were telling a very elf-centric tale. That could even be really cool. Someone would be apt to point out that only 15% of people who played DAO ever played an elf, but I'm sure they had fun and the added emphasis we could place on the elves aspect might be really appealing. You can't do everything by the numbers.

[1xs3thx1]

You mean as a sole protaganist? Sure, I suppose, if we were telling a very elf-centric tale. That could even be really cool. Someone would be apt to point out that only 15% of people who played DAO ever played an elf, but I'm sure they had fun and the added emphasis we could place on the elves aspect might be really appealing. You can't do everything by the numbers.

David, this is exactly why I have faith in BioWare. Sure, you have major limits, such as time contraints, and budget, but you're not always just looking to make a profit. I think you have the right balance, you make large profits, but the games don't suffer much for it. In fact, they gain more than they lose from it in the long run, Dragon Age II might not even be possible had you not gained the profit you did from Dragon Age:Origins. It's good to see even though you have these contraints you still consider things like a tale focused solely on Elves, or perhaps even Dwarves.

[Nerivant]

1xs3thx1 wrote...
 It's good to see even though you have these contraints you still consider things like a tale focused solely on Elves, or perhaps even Dwarves.

I think a Dwarf-centered tale that digs deeply (pardon the pun) into the political systems would be well recieved.

[ReiSilver]

The matter for me is simply the main reasons I play fantasy role playing games is for the chance to role play a different race. 99% of games you're going to be playing as a human over and over, same old same old. In a wartime FPS no one is going to fault that, in a sci-fi series where you have only ever played as human people would probably accept it. Then fantasy games come along and you have your elf and dwarf standby and maybe something else like gnomes, animal person variant, angelic/demonic variants.

It's FUN.

The choice was there in DAO of coarse people are going to have a problem with a feature being taken away from them. Personally I'm still ticked at being forced to play as a human, I'll probably continue to site it as a negative point until Dragon Age: Rise of the Elves or some such comes out and we get the option of only playing as an elf or only playing as a dwarf. But I'm not going to hold my breath for that little pipe dream.

[Dave of Canada]

Nerivant wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...
 It's good to see even though you have these contraints you still consider things like a tale focused solely on Elves, or perhaps even Dwarves.

I think a Dwarf-centered tale that digs deeply (pardon the pun) into the political systems would be well recieved.

Doubt it. People loved the Aeducan plot but they never continued it any further than that, with Dwarves being like... what? 3% of the entire playerbase?

[1xs3thx1]

Nerivant wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...
 It's good to see even though you have these contraints you still consider things like a tale focused solely on Elves, or perhaps even Dwarves.

I think a Dwarf-centered tale that digs deeply (pardon the pun) into the political systems would be well recieved.

I agree 100 percent! I thought that the Dwarven political system left a lot of room for an expansion to Dragon Age:Origins, and I was hoping a sequel eventually. The parts centered around the political situation of Orzammar were part of my favourite bits of Dragon Age:Origins.