608 réponses à ce sujet

[sanadawarrior]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

But at least when a game like FO:NV hits, a 'mild success' that still has the kind of attention to detail and niche appeal that reminds me of why I spent hours playing the original BG, posting in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg with Pete Seebach, or posting on the original BG forums with Lanfear (and drawing her a portrait of her beloved Coran)... Well, it's heartening. It's rewarding. It reminds me that, for now at least, there is still room for a couple more of those 'mild successes'.

Dude that word niche, i dont think it means what you think it means. No game thats sold 2 million plus in a few weeks is niche or a "mild success".

Edit: Actualy they have shipped 5 million copies of the game.

http://www.joystiq.c...tches-incoming/

Modifié par sanadawarrior, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

But at least when a game like FO:NV hits, a 'mild success' that still has the kind of attention to detail and niche appeal that reminds me of why I spent hours playing the original BG, posting in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg with Pete Seebach, or posting on the original BG forums with Lanfear (and drawing her a portrait of her beloved Coran)... Well, it's heartening. It's rewarding. It reminds me that, for now at least, there is still room for a couple more of those 'mild successes'.

Dude that word niche, i dont think it means what you think it means. No game thats sold 2 million plus in a few weeks is niche or a "mild success".

Dude, context, I don't think you know what it means. A game doesn't need to BE a niche game to HAVE niche appeal. That's what's so heartening about FO:NV- By Greg's standards, it's a 'mild' success, because 10 million is the next target. Did you notice the quotes around mild? They were there for a reason. I'm very pleased that NV is quintuple platinum, but still appeals to the niche gamers who read Van Buren, who remember the pre-FO3 BoS, etc. To me, it validates that the two needn't be mutually exclusive.

[sanadawarrior]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

But at least when a game like FO:NV hits, a 'mild success' that still has the kind of attention to detail and niche appeal that reminds me of why I spent hours playing the original BG, posting in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg with Pete Seebach, or posting on the original BG forums with Lanfear (and drawing her a portrait of her beloved Coran)... Well, it's heartening. It's rewarding. It reminds me that, for now at least, there is still room for a couple more of those 'mild successes'.

Dude that word niche, i dont think it means what you think it means. No game thats sold 2 million plus in a few weeks is niche or a "mild success".

Dude, context, I don't think you know what it means. A game doesn't need to BE a niche game to HAVE niche appeal. That's what's so heartening about FO:NV- By Greg's standards, it's a 'mild' success, because 10 million is the next target. Did you notice the quotes around mild? They were there for a reason. I'm very pleased that NV is quintuple platinum, but still appeals to the niche gamers who read Van Buren, who remember the pre-FO3 BoS, etc. To me, it validates that the two needn't be mutually exclusive.

Except if it appeals to 5 million gamers, thats not niche appeal thats mainstream appeal.

[Vylan Antagonist]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

But at least when a game like FO:NV hits, a 'mild success' that still has the kind of attention to detail and niche appeal that reminds me of why I spent hours playing the original BG, posting in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg with Pete Seebach, or posting on the original BG forums with Lanfear (and drawing her a portrait of her beloved Coran)... Well, it's heartening. It's rewarding. It reminds me that, for now at least, there is still room for a couple more of those 'mild successes'.

Dude that word niche, i dont think it means what you think it means. No game thats sold 2 million plus in a few weeks is niche or a "mild success".

Dude, context, I don't think you know what it means. A game doesn't need to BE a niche game to HAVE niche appeal. That's what's so heartening about FO:NV- By Greg's standards, it's a 'mild' success, because 10 million is the next target. Did you notice the quotes around mild? They were there for a reason. I'm very pleased that NV is quintuple platinum, but still appeals to the niche gamers who read Van Buren, who remember the pre-FO3 BoS, etc. To me, it validates that the two needn't be mutually exclusive.

Except if it appeals to 5 million gamers, thats not niche appeal thats mainstream appeal.

...



...

Let's try this again.

Niche appeal and mainstream appeal are not intrinsically mutually exclusive. That's the entire point of what I'm saying- FO:NV is an example of a game demonstrating that it can remain appealing to a subset of the market (a certain 'niche') and still sell very well. Yay.

There isn't some magical sales number at which point, oops, now that niche of players is no longer interested. The things they find enjoyable and rewarding don't abruptly evaporate because the game passed an arbitrary sales threshold.

If you still aren't grasping this, let me present it another way. Hockey fans are a niche market among sports enthusiasts. However, certain Hockey games can still be televised on 'mainstream channels' because those particular games (generally playoffs) have sufficient crossover appeal that they will put up 'mainstream numbers' while still pleasing the original niche. The one need not come at the expense of the other.

[ErichHartmann]

The word niche has become such a cliché. I certainly don't feel unique for liking certain types of games that others may not.

[Talogrungi]

Personally, I applaud any mainstream game that has sufficient niche appeal to satisfy said niche, without having too much of it to alienate the mainstream.

That's a pretty impressive balancing act.

[Ryzaki]

...New Vegas had a doe in it?

[Nozybidaj]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

...



...

That's a fairly accurate summation of the thread.  You do realize you are p****ing into the wind here, right?

[sanadawarrior]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

...



...

Let's try this again.

Niche appeal and mainstream appeal are not intrinsically mutually exclusive. That's the entire point of what I'm saying- FO:NV is an example of a game demonstrating that it can remain appealing to a subset of the market (a certain 'niche') and still sell very well. Yay.

There isn't some magical sales number at which point, oops, now that niche of players is no longer interested. The things they find enjoyable and rewarding don't abruptly evaporate because the game passed an arbitrary sales threshold.

If you still aren't grasping this, let me present it another way. Hockey fans are a niche market among sports enthusiasts. However, certain Hockey games can still be televised on 'mainstream channels' because those particular games (generally playoffs) have sufficient crossover appeal that they will put up 'mainstream numbers' while still pleasing the original niche. The one need not come at the expense of the other.

Lets try this again. The things you like about Fallout are the things 4,999,999 people also like. Your tastes are in line with the mainstream not the niche. The new Fallout games are the Call of Duty of rpgs, it is a series which appeals to a large amount of people, sells very well, and changes very little between each new game.

Modifié par sanadawarrior, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Grand_Commander13]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Lets try this again. The things you like about Fallout are the things 4,999,999 people also like. Your tastes are in line with the mainstream not the niche. The new Fallout games are the Call of Duty of rpgs, it is a series which appeals to a large amount of people, sells very well, and changes very little between each new game.

Let's try this again...

The things I like about Fallout: New Vegas are not the things that the mainstream liked about Fallout 3.

[Vylan Antagonist]

sanadawarrior wrote...
Lets try this again. The things you like about Fallout are the things 4,999,999 people also like. Your tastes are in line with the mainstream not the niche.

Oh, welp, I guess I was trolled. My bad.

[sanadawarrior]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Lets try this again. The things you like about Fallout are the things 4,999,999 people also like. Your tastes are in line with the mainstream not the niche. The new Fallout games are the Call of Duty of rpgs, it is a series which appeals to a large amount of people, sells very well, and changes very little between each new game.

Let's try this again...

The things I like about Fallout: New Vegas are not the things that the mainstream liked about Fallout 3.

You don't sell 5 million copies of a game by filling it with things people don't like. Odds are the things you like about New Vegas most people do as well.

[sanadawarrior]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...
Lets try this again. The things you like about Fallout are the things 4,999,999 people also like. Your tastes are in line with the mainstream not the niche.

Oh, welp, I guess I was trolled. My bad.

[maxernst]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

But at least when a game like FO:NV hits, a 'mild success' that still has the kind of attention to detail and niche appeal that reminds me of why I spent hours playing the original BG, posting in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg with Pete Seebach, or posting on the original BG forums with Lanfear (and drawing her a portrait of her beloved Coran)... Well, it's heartening. It's rewarding. It reminds me that, for now at least, there is still room for a couple more of those 'mild successes'.

Dude that word niche, i dont think it means what you think it means. No game thats sold 2 million plus in a few weeks is niche or a "mild success".

Dude, context, I don't think you know what it means. A game doesn't need to BE a niche game to HAVE niche appeal. That's what's so heartening about FO:NV- By Greg's standards, it's a 'mild' success, because 10 million is the next target. Did you notice the quotes around mild? They were there for a reason. I'm very pleased that NV is quintuple platinum, but still appeals to the niche gamers who read Van Buren, who remember the pre-FO3 BoS, etc. To me, it validates that the two needn't be mutually exclusive.

Except if it appeals to 5 million gamers, thats not niche appeal thats mainstream appeal.

Correct.  And Baldur's Gate was not a niche market game either.  I don't think Bioware or Bethesda have ever made niche market games; they're games are big budget productions that have to sell well.  To make games to exploit a particular niche market, you need to be a small budget company like Paradox Interactive.

[Vylan Antagonist]

maxernst wrote...


Correct.  And Baldur's Gate was not a niche market game either.  I don't think Bioware or Bethesda have ever made niche market games; they're games are big budget productions that have to sell well.  To make games to exploit a particular niche market, you need to be a small budget company like Paradox Interactive.

I didn't say they were niche games, I said they had niche appeal. There seems to be an issue in this forum with adolescent binary judgment- Everything is either black or white, awesome or awful, mainstream or niche, saintly or base.

A game can sell well and still retain niche appeal. You can either choose to understand this or not, I guess.

And Bethesda has been making the same game since Arena. It was not a 'big budget' production by any means.

[maxernst]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

maxernst wrote...


Correct.  And Baldur's Gate was not a niche market game either.  I don't think Bioware or Bethesda have ever made niche market games; they're games are big budget productions that have to sell well.  To make games to exploit a particular niche market, you need to be a small budget company like Paradox Interactive.

I didn't say they were niche games, I said they had niche appeal. There seems to be an issue in this forum with adolescent binary judgment- Everything is either black or white, awesome or awful, mainstream or niche, saintly or base.

A game can sell well and still retain niche appeal. You can either choose to understand this or not, I guess.

And Bethesda has been making the same game since Arena. It was not a 'big budget' production by any means.

Well, you may be right about Arena, since that's ages ago.  But surely all games appeal to some niche or other.  The question is whether Obsidian really geared their strategy toward appealing to a niche or whether they made a good game that just happened to do so.  Besides, FO1 and FO2 are not particularly obscure games, so I don't think appealing to their fans is really appealing a niche market.  I would guess that they make up a sizeable portion of the core audience of FO3.

And spare me the condescension by the way.  You can disagree without being insulting.

Modifié par maxernst, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:05 .

[StingingVelvet]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

I don't care what you think he said, the "almost nothing" changed from Fallout 3 makes the difference between a mediocre game, not as fun as either Oblivion or Fallout, and a great game which combines years of advancement in hardware/software and the writing and design skills to make something fun out of it.

Exactly.

Something missed in this whole thread is that minor changes can have a big difference.  The better writing, faction system, DT system and rebalanced stat system all add up to make a HUGE difference for roleplayers.  In similar fashion, small changes to Dragon Age could change it from a tactical RPG to an easy action RPG, even if it keeps the pause, skill trees and other things.

[Vylan Antagonist]

maxernst wrote...

Well, you may be right about Arena, since that's ages ago.  But surely all games appeal to some niche or other.  The question is whether Obsidian really geared their strategy toward appealing to a niche or whether they made a good game that just happened to do so. 

If that's the question, then the answer is clearly no. Obsidian did not 'really gear' their strategy towards appealing to only a subset of their audience. I don't think they have the luxury of being that cavalier about sales.

But I also don't think they specifically set out to convert CoD players (for example) either, particularly at the expense of some of their 'core'. The changes they made to FO3 not only didn't appear to alienate their existing market, but seem to have somewhat appeased some of the older fans who were still chapped over the direction Bethesda had taken with the franchise. If you've ever been to NMA, that's no small feat. As vitriolic as fans here can be at times, they have absolutely nothing on the NMA crew,

Maybe, as In Exile asserts, that's because Bethesda had already made such extreme changes to the franchise that any hint of a bone tossed their way would feel like infinite kindness in comparison. Who can say? Personally, I enjoyed FO3. Sure, I missed FO1 and FO2's isometric turn-based gameplay. I'd been looking forward to the first game all the way back when it was based in GURPS. But I recognize that there are some market realities that apply to what is and what isn't viable these days and I was able to enjoy FO3 on its own merits.

Still, FO:NV greatly surpassed Bethesda's take and made me realize a good bit of what I'd been missing. The game is vast and incredibly well conceived down to the most intricate details. Vault 11 in particular was like something out of a Rod Serling episode of the Twilight Zone. It's a game a person can absolutely lose themselves in for hours and hours at a time and it invoked all kinds of fond old memories.

Bioware has made a good case about that kind of massive content not really being a sound business decision. I believe them 100%. From an effort vs. reward perspective, I'm sure that massive amounts of that content and attention to detail will be completely missed by the bulk of its buyers. That doesn't lessen those buyers in any way and I'm not insulting them or their preferences. Most people, as greater developer access to in-depth play metrics have unfailingly revealed, just don't put that much time into their games. The majority don't stray too far from the beaten path. And sure, as a developer, when you are allocating scarce resources (time and budget!), I can absolutely understand the logic behind cutting content that you know only 20% (if that) of your audience will ever even experience.

I'm just glad that we still aren't at a point where it's mandatory in the market as a whole. I'm just glad that Obsidian was able to lavish some time on those less seen areas and still find success. I'm happy for them as developers and I'm happy for the enjoyment I've derived as a result of those efforts.

Besides, FO1 and FO2 are not particularly obscure games, so I don't think appealing to their fans is really appealing a niche market.  I would guess that they make up a sizeable portion of the core audience of FO3.

Maybe FO1 and 2 don't seem obscure on the internet, but among the general gaming populace? I'm just not as sure about that. Fallout 2 sold, what, under 300,000 copies? As a PC-only game in 1998? That was an awfully long time ago by 2008, when Fallout 3 was released, I have to think that a substantial number of FO3's 5 million purchasers had never played a prior entry in the series. And among the self-proclaimed 'hardcore', the fans who still haunted No Mutants Allowed? Fallout 3 was an abomination. A disgrace. The amount of venom they directed towards Bethesda was outrageous and comical.

But yeah, I'm sure they bought it anyways, complaining all the while.  

Still, I don't think they ever got past the move from isometric and turn-based to 1st person and real-time. I doubt they ever will.

[Grand_Commander13]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
But yeah, I'm sure they bought it anyways, complaining all the while. 

Unlike professional reviewers, forumites tend not to be sent review copies.  I am sure that the curious among them bought the game and confirmed their fears.  For my part I heard "Oblivion with guns and with more subtle level scaling" and expected a much more fun game than I got.

[KethWolfheart]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
But yeah, I'm sure they bought it anyways, complaining all the while. 

Unlike professional reviewers, forumites tend not to be sent review copies.  I am sure that the curious among them bought the game and confirmed their fears.  For my part I heard "Oblivion with guns and with more subtle level scaling" and expected a much more fun game than I got.

I was the opposite. I was convinced to try it and did not expect much.  It is now one of my top 5 best games ever played (currently Baldur Gates Series, NWN Series, KotoR series, Dragon Age Origins and Fallout New Vegas - in no particular order - probably not a conicidence most of them are a mix of Bioware and Obsidain)

I have to think that a substantial number of FO3's 5 million purchasers had never played a prior entry in the series

That would be me, although I had tried FO1 but it was so long ago, and I did  not complete it for whatever reason, that I don't think it counts

Obsidian showed you could make a tradiational RPG style games, with a ton of rich content and role playing options and choices, and still do well in the market.  You don't have to cut down on the depth of a game, role playing options,  and make it shorter (I have 93 hours played on my first FNV game) just to sell millions of games.  They also showed a great way to handle a diverse set of characters and role playing choices when it comes to character builds and companions, i.e. the confirmed bachelor perk and Arcade Ganon as two examples.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 18 novembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

I'm going with Sanada Warrior here. A product has niche appeal or it has broad (mainstream) appeal. It doesn't matter if you and your five buddies used to be the only people who liked the band Bloody Bunny-Pig, once they've hit triple platinum they have broad appeal and you and your five buddies are part of a mainstream audience.

Why? Because tastes change over time. It once used to be that point and click adventure games were a large and healthy market (especially if you include Myst,) now they've shrunk significantly and only have niche appeal.

Yeah, people who are used to being part of a niche might complain when several million other gamers decide to jump in their swimming pool, and they might try to set themselves apart from the mainstream, but it's wishful thinking at best.

Fallout: New Vegas is a mainstream game with mainstream appeal and a mainstream audience. If you bought the game, you're part of the audience. If you want to be a niche RPGamer, the Fallout series will no longer help you to be so.

[StingingVelvet]

Maria Caliban wrote...


I'm going with Sanada Warrior here. A product has niche appeal or it has broad (mainstream) appeal. It doesn't matter if you and your five buddies used to be the only people who liked the band Bloody Bunny-Pig, once they've hit triple platinum they have broad appeal and you and your five buddies are part of a mainstream audience.

Why? Because tastes change over time. It once used to be that point and click adventure games were a large and healthy market (especially if you include Myst,) now they've shrunk significantly and only have niche appeal.

Yeah, people who are used to being part of a niche might complain when several million other gamers decide to jump in their swimming pool, and they might try to set themselves apart from the mainstream, but it's wishful thinking at best.

Fallout: New Vegas is a mainstream game with mainstream appeal and a mainstream audience. If you bought the game, you're part of the audience. If you want to be a niche RPGamer, the Fallout series will no longer help you to be so.

That's seems overly generalized.  For one, despite adventure games being niche products now-a-days Telltale games reach a larger audience as did the Monkey Island remakes.  The Monkey Island SE sold over a million on Xbox Live, last I heard.  Similarly one could call ALL PC gaming a niche, yet we get mainstream titles like Modern Warfare and Mass Effect 2. 

I don't think it's as simple as something being niche or being mainstream.  One game can appeal to both for different reasons... Fallout: New Vegas appeals to me because of the faction system and the interactive story, while it might appeal to Jim down the street because of it's shooting and monsters.

[Grand_Commander13]

But it's true that different people can like the game for different reasons.

As if any of the quibbling over whether New Vegas fans are indie cool or mainstream drones matters in the slightest.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Maria Caliban wrote...


I'm going with Sanada Warrior here. A product has niche appeal or it has broad (mainstream) appeal. It doesn't matter if you and your five buddies used to be the only people who liked the band Bloody Bunny-Pig, once they've hit triple platinum they have broad appeal and you and your five buddies are part of a mainstream audience.

If you choose to operate from a perspective of only seeing dichotomies, then that is your choice, but your choice to limit your own vision does not limit reality, only your perception of it.

If I love games specifically that feature .223 pistols, and this is my primary interest in games, the sole metric by which I evaluate whether or not I can enjoy that experience, then I am part of a niche market. I may be the sole member of that market. It is not a common interest.

However, a game can be made that will incorporate this interest (completely accidentally even) while still primarily appealing to many other consumers for very different reasons. My personal interests and motivations for playing the games do not change from 'niche' to 'mainstream' merely because at one point my beloved .223 pistol is featured in Super Meat Boy and the next, it appears in Super Mario 4. My niche interest is not transmogrified merely because of where it happens to appear. The only reasonable basis for reclassifying my interest would be a change in how wide-spread that particular interest might be among the general buying public. If suddenly large chunks of the market were similarly focused on the presence of .223 pistols, then that interest could be considered mainstream. At that point, and only at that point, is that specific appeal no longer niche.

Mass Effect allowed a Male Shepherd to punch a female reporter in the face. There may well be a subset of reprobates who relish the opportunity to sock women in faces. Just because Mass Effect sells well, that doesn't suddenly make those fans 'mainstream' or render that character defect a 'mainstream appeal'.

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 19 novembre 2010 - 02:49 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

This thread makes me want to buy the New Vegas expansion now. Fallout 3 is pretty cool, but it missed out on alot of roleplay and story opportunity in my opinion. We won't know how it compares to DA 2 until it is released though...so...huh?