608 réponses à ce sujet

[StingingVelvet]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Captain Iglo wrote...

Take away the ability of Fps/third person shooting mechanics from fallout 3 and you would have to erase about two-thirds of the sales of Fallout 3 or Vegas.

Indeed. While I understand the OPs point (complexity can be good), the two games aren't very comparable, and sales aren't a good indication of anything due to the differences.

It's a very general point, I don't want to get bogged down by specific examples.  The point is that Obsidian added in more complexity and depth and were rewared with favorable comments from reviewers and players alike.  What form that added depth takes on would depend on the game...

[Schwadragon]

The thing is, I think New Vegas and Dragon Age 2 (and Bioware games in general) are completely different types of games. NV's story is good in the sense that it gives the player a lot of freedom and makes him or her feel like something is being accomplished, but in terms of the story in and of itself, NV is simplistic at best.

When I want a lot of exploration and atmosphere, I'll play Fallout. When I want a good story, I'll play a Bioware game.

[Addai]

I just posted on the FNV thread that what FNV makes me worried about is seeing the difference between what seems to me to be a rushed, incomplete game to one that's more fully developed. I'm not even talking about bugs, since I didn't encounter any major ones other than the saves disappearing bug (easily fixed). Rather, that locations lacked character and story, the main story was confusing and arbitrary and... well, boring.

OTOH what it did make me realize is that I am very critical of DA2 announced changes, but paid up front for FNV without following the development closely. So I'm a hypocrite and too hard on DA precisely because it's close to my heart.  Still haven't done my DA2 pre-order, but it's a little perspective.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 novembre 2010 - 04:50 .

[StingingVelvet]

Schwadragon wrote...

The thing is, I think New Vegas and Dragon Age 2 (and Bioware games in general) are completely different types of games. NV's story is good in the sense that it gives the player a lot of freedom and makes him or her feel like something is being accomplished, but in terms of the story in and of itself, NV is simplistic at best.
When I want a lot of exploration and atmosphere, I'll play Fallout. When I want a good story, I'll play a Bioware game.

I don't see the split you see, in fact I would say Morrowind and New Vegas have two of the best RPG stories ever.  They are not linear and cinematic, no, but that is only one aspect of storytelling.  Morrowind and New Vegas tell a story by offering you a world to explore and learn about, and offering you the chance to shape that world through your actions.

[Herr Uhl]

StingingVelvet wrote...

It's a very general point, I don't want to get bogged down by specific examples.  The point is that Obsidian added in more complexity and depth and were rewared with favorable comments from reviewers and players alike.  What form that added depth takes on would depend on the game...

As I see it then, DAO was way more complex than FO3, hence they need to lower it to reach new vegas level.

[Meltemph]

5 millions shipped copies. Not actual sales.

Huh? They sold their product to retailers... That is copies sold to retailers, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, unless you are suggesting EA is renting space in stores?

[hexaligned]

Hmm, I've seen quite a few people mention bugs, I've done two playthroughs and haven't run into one yet (PC version) Maybe I've just been lucky, compare that to DAO though where after the second patch I couldn't run the game for more than 30 mins at a time without a CTD (and that's on top of the multitude of memory leaks and threading issues the PC version had)

[Herr Uhl]

relhart wrote...

Hmm, I've seen quite a few people mention bugs, I've done two playthroughs and haven't run into one yet (PC version) Maybe I've just been lucky, compare that to DAO though where after the second patch I couldn't run the game for more than 30 mins at a time without a CTD (and that's on top of the multitude of memory leaks and threading issues the PC version had)

Probably luck. I've run into a good deal of bugs playing it (PC). Most weren't gamebreakers though, so I could work around them.

Well, that and the game freezing, but I choose to blame that on my crappy computer.

[In Exile]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
I'm actually struggling to think of many issues with Fallout 3 that weren't technical, and I think it's fair to say they didn't do a spectacular job at addressing those.

edit: aside from those In Exile just mentioned, but those are stylistic concerns.

Yeah, that's just preference. I wouldn't buy NV, because it isn't the sort of game that appeals to me. I did rent it, but the horrific bugs on the 360 just made me want to immolate it in fire.

StingingVelvet wrote...
It didn't matter which gun you used
though, you can kill everything with a pistol in ME2.  Yes, some guns
are better against armor than others and stuff like that, but there is
no real weight to that idea, you can still force anything to kill
anything.  In New Vegas you literally can't kill a Deathclaw with a
standard pistol, even at max level.

You can do the same thing in New Vegas. The only exception is a deathclaw, which is just murder on wheels. Though I did farm all of the deathclaws with a starter gun. If you go to the quarry and hang around on the ledge, the deathclaws won't follow you and you can pick each one off. Sure, it's an AI exploit, but shoddy programming is still a grounded criticism of the game.

[In Exile]

StingingVelvet wrote...
I don't see the split you see, in fact I would say Morrowind and New Vegas have two of the best RPG stories ever.  They are not linear and cinematic, no, but that is only one aspect of storytelling.  Morrowind and New Vegas tell a story by offering you a world to explore and learn about, and offering you the chance to shape that world through your actions.

New Vegas offers you a dead and scripted world to interact with in one of two preprogrammed ways (anger faction or not) with the exception of the endgame, which gives you four dramatic ways of ending the game.

As for shaping the world, well, I don't see that. Each faction/city is pretty self-contained; there isn't much you can do to alter anything in New Vegas, short of changing the endgame balance. No different than what you can do in DA:O or Mass Effect 1/2.

ETA:

The thing that kills New Vegas for me is how every single interaction is 1:1. One thing that Bioware does very well in its games is dynamic interaction between large groups. Look at the Landsmeet, for example. The big scenes, so to speak, all involve a huge mishmash of characters coming toghether. In New Vegas, in contrast, everything happens between the player and the other person the player is speaking too.

Modifié par In Exile, 14 novembre 2010 - 05:05 .

[Ziggeh]

StingingVelvet wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Captain Iglo wrote...

Take away the ability of Fps/third person shooting mechanics from fallout 3 and you would have to erase about two-thirds of the sales of Fallout 3 or Vegas.

Indeed. While I understand the OPs point (complexity can be good), the two games aren't very comparable, and sales aren't a good indication of anything due to the differences.

It's a very general point, I don't want to get bogged down by specific examples.  The point is that Obsidian added in more complexity and depth and were rewared with favorable comments from reviewers and players alike.  What form that added depth takes on would depend on the game...

Ya, I was refering to the other comparisons being made in the thred more than your own.

As I 've said though, I don't believe "streamlining" is the antithesis of complexity. A good example are companion weapons in ME2. You go from a "drag and drop" system to a menu selection system, which gives you exactly the same choices, and is "streamlined" at the cost of "feeling less rpg-y". (I appreciate they removed the mods, but their effect and the complexity of weapon choices is a whole other discussion)

[Ziggeh]

In Exile wrote...

As for shaping the world, well, I don't see that. Each faction/city is pretty self-contained; there isn't much you can do to alter anything in New Vegas, short of changing the endgame balance. No different than what you can do in DA:O or Mass Effect 1/2.

Siding with a faction changes the "world" quite a bit by changing which areas become friendly and hostile.

[Anakin1000]

Captain Iglo wrote...

Take away the ability of Fps/third person shooting mechanics from fallout 3/Vegas and you would have to erase about two-thirds of the sales of Fallout 3/ Vegas.

Take away the ability of Third Person Shooting mechanics from Mass Effect 2 and you would have to erase about two-thirds of the sales of Mass Effect 2. 

Modifié par Anakin1000, 14 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Catsith]

StingingVelvet wrote...

And what does it mean for Bioware as a whole? Does the sucess of New Vegas and the comments against Fable and Arcania mean anything to Bioware for the future? Will they look more at adding complexity and roleplaying mechanics back into their games? Mass Effect 2 ditched a lot of RPG elements, will Bioware maybe feel confident about putting those elements back in the game to some extent?

The lead gameplay designer has gone out and said ME3 will have richer RPG features, but we'll see. To Bioware, an RPG is a game with "A good story, exploration, progression, and combat". That's what they've said many times. Theyve also been honest about their desire to dumb down their games and continue to try and reach as many people as possible, so I don't think thats going to change, sadly.



It'll be interesting to see how BioWare fit into the RPG genre in the near future... they've been getting a ton of flak lately online for ME2 and now DA2, and there's a lot of devs out there right now who aren't afraid to make actual RPGs, and aren't worried about menus and inventories and stats driving a potential audience away. The Witcher 2, Dungeon Siege 3, Deus Ex 3.. all reportedly very rich in RPG features and coming out around DA2's ship date. And it's kind of a shame to see BioWare go in the opposite direction and join the likes of Lionhead Studios, who continue to believe the changes they're making will attract some illusionary audience of people who might enjoy dumbed-down RPGs.



I think the success of New Vegas means little to BioWare, actually. All Bethesda's games have outsold Bioware's, and both studios have very different design philosophies. I believe the games to watch in constrast to DA2 will be the Witcher 2 and Dungeon Siege 3, and Deus Ex 3 in constrast to ME3. They will not be able to ignore it if those games sell better or earn more acclaim.

[Marionetten]

Khayness wrote...

Nothing for BioWare. Obsidian is superior in game mechanics, BioWare excels in storytelling.

To me it's always been the opposite. While Planescape: Torment reigns when it comes to storytelling Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn had way better realized gameplay mechanics.

That said, I'd love to see a fight to the death between David Gaider and Chris Avellone.

[In Exile]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
Siding with a faction changes the "world" quite a bit by changing which areas become friendly and hostile.

To me, that just isn't a big change. Fallout NV just isn't a world that feels alive or engaging to me. Just pre-programmed automatons going on about their altered routes.

So to me, all that NV means for DA2 is a reminder why I only do business with Bioware.

[AlanC9]

Catsith wrote...

I think the success of New Vegas means little to BioWare, actually. All Bethesda's games have outsold Bioware's, and both studios have very different design philosophies. I believe the games to watch in constrast to DA2 will be the Witcher 2 and Dungeon Siege 3, and Deus Ex 3 in constrast to ME3. They will not be able to ignore it if those games sell better or earn more acclaim.

Dungeon Siege 3? After the incredibly bad DS1 I checked out of the series. Can anyone enlighten me as to what's supposed to be good about this one?

[In Exile]

Catsith wrote...
I think the success of New Vegas means little to BioWare, actually. All Bethesda's games have outsold Bioware's, and both studios have very different design philosophies. I believe the games to watch in constrast to DA2 will be the Witcher 2 and Dungeon Siege 3, and Deus Ex 3 in constrast to ME3. They will not be able to ignore it if those games sell better or earn more acclaim.

I haven't followed Dungeon Sige 3 or Deus Ex 3, but I absolutely do not understand this contrast between DA2 and the Witcher 2. Whatever DA2 is doing, The Witcher 2 is doing it, or one-upping Bioware.

Fixed human, voiced protagonist in DA2? Fixed human, male protagonist in TW2, with no apperance customization.
Party-based combat in DA2? Nothing even close in TW2.
Over-the-top action RPG twich features on the console? Quick-time events on the PC.

Seriously, just what part of The Witcher 2 isn't a streamlined action RPG? The Witcher had a really awesome mechanic with alchemy, but that's about their only claim to tactics.

[Vulee94]

Marionetten wrote...
To me it's always been the opposite. While Planescape: Torment reigns when it comes to storytelling Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn had way better realized gameplay mechanics.

That said, I'd love to see a fight to the death between David Gaider and Chris Avellone.

PST was done by Black Isle, not Obsidian.
And true, the story was amasing, but in other departments it felt lacking. Still, it defines cRPG IMHO.

As for Dave and MCA, they should unite, not fight. Dave is a writer, MCA a designer, a tag team of awesome!

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

The thing that kills New Vegas for me is how every single interaction is 1:1. One thing that Bioware does very well in its games is dynamic interaction between large groups. Look at the Landsmeet, for example. The big scenes, so to speak, all involve a huge mishmash of characters coming toghether. In New Vegas, in contrast, everything happens between the player and the other person the player is speaking too.

Now this is just patently untrue. If you opt to dump the chemicals on Cottonwood Cave in Eye for an Eye you end up irradiating the area and wiping out a whole Legion camp filled with potential quest givers. If you did it stealthily you will suffer no reputation penalty with the Legion while enjoying a massive boost with the NCR. In addition to that you will trigger additional dialogue with Boone assuming you brought him. This is an event which changes the landscape of the game entirely. Far more than the Landsmeet which is a fairly linear sequence.

Modifié par Marionetten, 14 novembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Anakin1000 wrote...

Captain Iglo wrote...

Take away the ability of Fps/third person shooting mechanics from fallout 3/Vegas and you would have to erase about two-thirds of the sales of Fallout 3/ Vegas.

Take away the ability of Third Person Shooting mechanics from Mass Effect 2 and you would have to erase about two-thirds of the sales of Mass Effect 2. 

And of course what people from these very boards are claiming:

Take away the ability of bland tactical combat mechanics from Dragon Age: Origins and you would have to erase about two-thirds of the sales of Dragon Age: Origins.

Looking at VGChartz NV and ME2 have comparable sales in their first three weeks so it's going to be a question of which has a longer tail.

I will go ahead and say this about the putzes slandering New Vegas:
Yeah, I'm a Bioware partisan too.  When I think of an engaging experience I always think of the classic formula of "four different missions, each of which play out exactly the same regardless of whether you choose to be good or evil at the end of them".  I always get annoyed when my character's stats affect how well I am able to finish a quest, because it isn't fair that every character can't get the optimum outcome for each quest!  I hate games that are dead and scripted to respond to me in predetermined ways; I far prefer games that are dead and not scripted to respond to me at all, except in the predetermined ways that only happen at the end of my four missions.  I also place an inordinate amount of concern on side quests considering my slavish devotion to EPIC! stories, but think that if there is no EPIC! story for the side quests to distract me from then they are worthless.

[Vulee94]

Marionetten wrote...
Now this is just patently untrue. If you opt to dump the chemicals on Cottonwood Cave in Eye for an Eye you end up irradiating the area and wiping out a whole Legion camp filled with potential quest givers. If you did it stealthily you will suffer no reputation penalty with the Legion while enjoying a massive boost with the NCR. In addition to that you will trigger additional dialogue with Boone assuming you brought him. This is an event which changes the landscape of the game entirely. Far more than the Landsmeet which is a fairly linear sequence.

I think he meant that DAO has a lot of coversations where there's 3+ people involved, not just you and someone else like in NV.

[Harcken]

Well, I look at it this way. Dragon Age combat was lacking, but the roleplay was good; so they focused on the combat. In Fallout 3, the combat was good, but the RPG elements were lacking; so they focused on the RPG mechanics.



I love both Obsidian and Bioware, but I would have to say Obsidian storylines and dialogue is superior, but Bioware polish and gameplay systems are the best. Opposite of someone else's view, and like some other guy said, a merged Bioware/Obsidian would be cool in a dream world.

[FedericoV]

Meltemph wrote...

5 millions shipped copies. Not actual sales.

Huh? They sold their product to retailers... That is copies sold to retailers, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, unless you are suggesting EA is renting space in stores?

It means that if the product do not reach the customers (us) but remain on the shelves of such retailers, shipped sales would not mean a lot. That's true for every game. Than, it's very possible that FO:NV will outsold every game in Bioware's history since it's released on 3 platforms. It only need to sell like FO:3 (that shipped 4.7 copies with the exception of Japan). But considering FO3 sales, I would wait a little before saying that NV teaches us something about complexity. It seems to me that it explains quite the opposite thing (ie: the importance of accessibility, streamlining and marketing for good sales).

Modifié par FedericoV, 14 novembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Catsith]

AlanC9 wrote...

Catsith wrote...

I think the success of New Vegas means little to BioWare, actually. All Bethesda's games have outsold Bioware's, and both studios have very different design philosophies. I believe the games to watch in constrast to DA2 will be the Witcher 2 and Dungeon Siege 3, and Deus Ex 3 in constrast to ME3. They will not be able to ignore it if those games sell better or earn more acclaim.

Dungeon Siege 3? After the incredibly bad DS1 I checked out of the series. Can anyone enlighten me as to what's supposed to be good about this one?

Obsidian's new engine is apparently pretty fantastic, as many previewers have said already. It's going to be a Diablo/Dragon Age hybrid with tons of classes, loot, skills, isometric view, a grand old Obsidian-style story with choices and branching paths, drop-in co-op and so on. Worth keeping an eye on at the least.