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[upsettingshorts]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

You're still not making it sound any less like this is a Bash DA2 thread. 

"Reviewers and most players don't like things that are not complex. DA2 is not complex. What could that possibly MEAN?"

Well I can tell you really want to see it that way, which you can choose to do, I can't stop you.

The way I interpret this is you're feigning ignorance in an attempt to plead neutrality.  I don't buy it.  The original post and thread title is loaded and begs the question. 

Hence all the "off topic" responses disputing the premise.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[Grand_Commander13]

In Exile wrote...

One more point. Fallout 3 sold 4.7 million copies. Right now, New Vegas sold 2.0 million (that was in the first page or so, yes?). That means it caught half the audience of the original so far. Does that make it a success or failure?

Yeah noob bag, it's totally a fair comparison to look at the stats on a game that's been out for three weeks and compare it to a game that's gone GotY.

[Bryy_Miller]

In Exile wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...
New Vegas added a lot of complexity and roleplaying back into the
Fallout 3 paradigm.  The factions make decisions matter, as pleasing
often means losing gameplay oppotunities with the other.  You can
actually fail quests, for instance.

I think I've harped quite a lot on whether or not New Vegas had meaningful roleplaying opportunities (I think it didn't) and whether the faction decisions matter (I think they're largely superficial).

As I added, Veronica's mission was touted as being this huge thing, when in reality, it changed nothing about how the rest of the game played at all. Same with Mr. House, and The Boomers, and every other faction. Yes, the endgame is the decision of who rules Vegas, but come on. I walked right into Casear's camp after betraying him, to find that nobody was attacking me. It was weird.

I'm not even going to get into the faction mission bugs, where I would get experience for completing a quest two hours prior.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:20 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

lol, yeah it's not exactly a fair comparison.

[Dave of Canada]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Yeah noob bag, it's totally a fair comparison to look at the stats on a game that's been out for three weeks and compare it to a game that's gone GotY.

"Noob bag"? That's a new one.

[DTKT]

I do believe that New Vegas sold over 5 million copies.

[Bryy_Miller]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

One more point. Fallout 3 sold 4.7 million copies. Right now, New Vegas sold 2.0 million (that was in the first page or so, yes?). That means it caught half the audience of the original so far. Does that make it a success or failure?

Yeah noob bag, it's totally a fair comparison to look at the stats on a game that's been out for three weeks and compare it to a game that's gone GotY.

It's also an unfair comparison to say that a game that's not even out yet will be poorly received in regards to games that are out.

[In Exile]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...
Yeah noob bag, it's totally a fair comparison to look at the stats on a game that's been out for three weeks and compare it to a game that's gone GotY.

Ah, we're going down the insult route. Well, as it turns out, the fact I have a basic education means I do compare apples to apples. My source for the 4.7 million figure is from Nov. 2008, which as it turns out is just about a month or so after release.

Though on closer inspection, my post is actually wrong because the initial source I used misquoted figures shipped for sold, and as it turns out Fallout 3 only shipped 4.7 million, which is actually less than New Vegas having shipped 5 million.

But this raises another issue. If the sales are about the same, to what degree can you say the audience cares about what Obsidian did diifferently, versus the Fallout 3 user base coming out to purchase a game that is in a lot of ways similar to the first?

[upsettingshorts]

Bryy_Miller wrote...
It's also an unfair comparison to say that a game that's not even out yet will be poorly received in regards to games that are out.

Why, it's almost as if the entire thread begs the question!  I wonder if that's related to all the "off topic" posts disputing the features, sales data, etc of New Vegas...  nahh, couldn't be.  We're working with a rock solid, totally objective, logically sound premise. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Okay, I think we've beat that dead horse, or at least killed it.

[In Exile]

DTKT wrote...

I do believe that New Vegas sold over 5 million copies.

They shipped 5 million, which is not quite the same as sold. Mass Effect 2 shipped a significant amount, and so did DA:O. When we compared their sales figure on the forum before we used #s sold and not shipped, so I assumed that was what we had for Fallout 3 on a cursory glance. But the figures are shipped, so we need a new comparison.

For comparison's sake, Dragon Age shipped 3.2 million. Mass Effect 2 shipped at least 2 million, though I did find one source that suspects that including 360/PC, ME1+ME2 sold a combined 6.6 million units, based on a Bioware press release claiming that Mass Effect 2 sold 6.6 million.

[Meltemph]

 

One more point. Fallout 3 sold 4.7 million copies. Right now, New Vegas sold 2.0 million (that was in the first page or so, yes?). That means it caught half the audience of the original so far. Does that make it a success or failure?

According to Bethesda:
Bethesda has managed to ship 5 million copies.These 5 million copies have generated more than $300 million

Modifié par Meltemph, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Derengard]

Even if New Vegas didn't actually add much complexity, it just as much serves the point if the impression of the mere will for some more complexity was received positively in some places. It also doesn't matter that these games take fundamentally different approaches, because it's not about doing the same things but things of the same value (added complexity).

[upsettingshorts]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Okay, I think we've beat that dead horse, or at least killed it.

It'll come back to life a page or two after we stop kicking it. That's how the forums work. Half the long threads on here have the same debates started, debated, and concluded on page 4 as they do on page 34.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[Meltemph]

Even if New Vegas didn't actually add much complexity, it just as much serves the point if the impression of the mere will for some more complexity was received positively in some places. It also doesn't matter that these games take fundamentally different approaches, because it's not about doing the same things but things of the same value (added complexity).

So your thinking behind this is akin to: When it rains the streets get wet, the streets are wet, therefore it rained.

[In Exile]

Meltemph wrote...

 

One more point. Fallout 3 sold 4.7 million copies. Right now, New Vegas sold 2.0 million (that was in the first page or so, yes?). That means it caught half the audience of the original so far. Does that make it a success or failure?

According to Bethesda:
Bethesda has managed to ship 5 million copies.These 5 million copies have generated more than $300 million

Yeah, those are the numbers I've found too. But that just leaves me confused. Are we supposed to count units shipped as sales, or units sold? 

[Zaku49]

The glitches in New Vegas can all be solved with the console which is easy to use. So for any PC gamer the game pretty much has no glitches. I have had my 20 save game corrupted though but I had multiple saves which is PC gaming 101. If I didn't I would of been so mad and quit the game LOL. New Vegas was not special. The complexity was crap. Factions where handled poorly and good thing DT was added. Very dumb that a pistol can utterly destroy a 8 foot tall freak. New vegas took a very simple game fallout 3 what I would rate 5/10 and turned it into a basic CRPG 7/10. Personally I don't understand why developers are simplifying games. If Dragon Age 2 turns out to be like Gothic 4 then the dragon age franchise will be epic fail.

[Meltemph]

Yeah, those are the numbers I've found too. But that just leaves me confused. Are we supposed to count units shipped as sales, or units sold?

Units shipped is sold for the manufacturer, however that does not mean the retailers have made money off them yet. So it depends on what you want to know. If you want to know how many people actually bought the game... Well outside of maybe MMO's, we never are told and/or nobody knows that number. If you are an investor wondering how good a game did for a manufacturer/producer/developer, well then obviously the amount shipped is what you are going to be looking at.

[upsettingshorts]

Meltemph wrote...
So it depends on what you want to know.

What if I want to know how to support a circular argument on an internet forum?

[In Exile]

Meltemph wrote..

Units shipped is sold for the manufacturer, however that does not mean the retailers have made money off them yet. So it depends on what you want to know. If you want to know how many people actually bought the game... Well outside of maybe MMO's, we never are told and/or nobody knows that number. If you are an investor wondering how good a game did for a manufacturer/producer/developer, well then obviously the amount shipped is what you are going to be looking at.

That makes sense. So insofar as we want to talk about how a game is looking like it will do for Bioware from their perspective, what matters is how many units shipped? And I suppose if a game sells very well, retailers will order more units, which means more units shipped for Bioware/EA, and therefore higher profit margins for the game?

[thegreateski]

Zaku . . . what the hell? You went from bashing the game to singing its praises and then back again in a flat second.

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

 

One more point. Fallout 3 sold 4.7 million copies. Right now, New Vegas sold 2.0 million (that was in the first page or so, yes?). That means it caught half the audience of the original so far. Does that make it a success or failure?

According to Bethesda:
Bethesda has managed to ship 5 million copies.These 5 million copies have generated more than $300 million

Yeah, those are the numbers I've found too. But that just leaves me confused. Are we supposed to count units shipped as sales, or units sold? 

Shipped = company profit

sold = whether next game in series will see an increase/decrease in copies shipped or receive a sequel at all

sold definitely the number you want to use to show how popular the title was.

[Derengard]

Meltemph wrote...

Even if New Vegas didn't actually add much complexity, it just as much serves the point if the impression of the mere will for some more complexity was received positively in some places. It also doesn't matter that these games take fundamentally different approaches, because it's not about doing the same things but things of the same value (added complexity).

So your thinking behind this is akin to: When it rains the streets get wet, the streets are wet, therefore it rained.

I'm saying that most of the discussion is about niggling details beside the point (as usual). If it was positively received, it doesn't matter if you agree with this reception (usually in minor points anyway), the reception is crucial.

Modifié par Derengard, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:50 .

[Meltemph]

That makes sense. So insofar as we want to talk about how a game is looking like it will do for Bioware from their perspective, what matters is how many units shipped? And I suppose if a game sells very well, retailers will order more units, which means more units shipped for Bioware/EA, and therefore higher profit margins for the game?

Correct. I ran a electronics store for 3 years and placed inventory for most of those 3 years, that included software. Never once did I have to sign contracts to place orders with manufacturers(And I talked directly to them most of the time), outside of Bose and Klipsch, and that was only for their biggest ticket items(2k or higher).



They took my companies money, and if I had sitting copies or sitting electronics that was my fault for ordering to many and I got in trouble for that. Never once were we able to return software that did not sell.

[Nefario]

StingingVelvet wrote...



Fallout New Vegas was praised for adding depth and complexity. Fable 3 and Gothic 4 were bashed for removing depth and complexity. Does this mean anything to Dragon Age 2 and Bioware? More specifically, will this

impact review scores? Sales? Public opinion? Will the game be effected in some minor way?

This isn't really a simple question. A number of the premises are rather contentious. While Fable 3's being overly simple was a criticism, I wouldn't say it was "bashed" for being such. Aggregate review scores are actually comparable between Fable 3 and Fallout: New Vegas. Gothic IV was criticized not just for being simple, but also for being generic and uninteresting.

It's also important to note the context of the praise bestowed upon FO:NV. It was a game that, for the most part, stuck very closely to its predecessor. Without the added features (and their alleged complexity and depth) to differentiate it, the game likely would have been much more harshly criticized for feeling like a retread of FO:3.

So, what does that mean for DA2? Well, I don't think we know enough about it to say. But it certainly seems to differentiate itself from Origins in some ways, so that bodes well. But really, who can say?