608 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

I don't think it means anything at all for BW. Looking at the metacritic scores from critics:

Fable 3: 80 - critics' rating (63 positive and 14 mixed reviews from critics)
Gothic 4: 63 - critics' rating(7 positive, 11 mixed & 4 negative reviews from critics).
Fallout: New Vega: 84 - critics' rating (63 positive, 8 mixed from critics).

In terms of fan reviews, that seems to mostly be where you see more negative reviews. Breakdown:

Fable 3: 7.3 average user rating (28 positive, 13 mixed, 9 negative user reviews)
Gothic 4: 5.4 average user rating (4 positive, 5 mixed, 3 negative user reviews)
Fallout: New Vegas: 7.7 average user rating (46 positive, 11 mixed, 8 negative reviews)

NOTE: those are mixed reviews, some are from the PC and others from the xBox, etc. but they correspond pretty closely to the PC versions where applicable.

I'm going to go with any bashing of simplification in Gothic 4 and/or Fable 3 being meaningless, just like FO:NV's sales are meaningless. All that any of this shows is that one game failed to execute on multiple levels (Gothic 4), one was mostly well received (Fable 3) with some issues, and one was a fine game despite its many bugs (Fallout: New Vegas). With ratings like the ones Gothic 4 has gotten, I'm assuming that any bashing it has received had to be about a lot more than just "simplification."

As for FO:NV's sales, bravo on 5 million copies (I did see that mentioned on Steam when I popped in to launch FO:NV semi-recently)! I doubt that any of these things will influence BW's design decisions however. I think the only thing that would make them reassess the direction they've chosen to go in is if DA2 flops.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[lv12medic]

I shall answer the thread topic question:  New Vegas means there's a new place for the Bioware Dev's to blow all their money gambling after we all hand them wads of cash for DA2.

As for what all the hoopla in this thread has been like, I don't see anything Bethesda does will directly affect Bioware or any other game developer.  Bethesda fills the open world non-linear "I start the game and have no idea what to do" niche, Bioware fills the linear non-linear cinematic character story driven niche, CD Projekt fills the sun burned out and I can't see anything dark niche.

Now as for adding content from one game to the next, I don't know.  New Vegas added a lot of interesting features to it that makes it play a bit differently than Fallout 3, but I feel the reason this makes New Vegas review better is because Fallout 3 was just lacking in so many areas.  I played through Fallout 3 feeling like being left in a theme park that went out of buisness.  I see potential for a lot of fun stuff but it didn't deliver in those potential areas.  It's like when I look at the Fade sequence from DA:O, it had a great opportunity to shine in dealing with all the different origins, and it just fell flat on its face with Duncan acting like an idiot.

For games that cut content and start falling flat on their faces like Gothic 4.  Well, I tried the demo for Gothic 4 and what it showed me was that it belongs in a digital picture frame and is not an entertainment product.  It looks really good but just screamed "Look at me, I am boring.  Oh so boring.  Oh so very boring! But I have pretty trees baby!"  I won't comment on Fable 3 cause I haven't played it at all, and Fable 2 was just whatever.  You run around, kill stuff, make money, buy stuff, marry some NPC that stares at you like a zombie.  The doggie made that game somewhat bearable.

Now for DA2, I don't know how people can claim so much about knowing about all this content being cut and lost and forgotten, when we know very little about it.  It has just been speculation run amuck.  You lose some character building options like race and and classes are being more restrictive.  OK, what is replacing it?  A voiced protaganist that the game is being built around and classes that don't define your character much but controls how they play in combat.  Party members can no longer wear whatever hand me downs people equip them with.  What is it being replaced with?  Unique outfits that make them stand out, possibly have some story significance, and to me makes a lot more sense because NPC's with depth should know how to dress themselves.  Is every cut a great idea.  Not really.  I would like to play as other races it just won't happen in DA2.  I would like Isabela to wear some pants, but she doesn't want to wear pants.  She's apparently a big girl and can dress herself.

And there are my two long winded pennies.  Should have just melted them down and sold the copper.

[Meltemph]

I'm saying that most of the discussion is about niggling details beside the point (as usual). If it was positively received, it doesn't matter if you agree with this reception, the reception is crucial.

But you are inferring that something a certain part of the product created was the reason or added to the sales of the product, w/o a proper amount of information to make that claim. Only thing you can infer at this point is that the things added that people here are calling "complex" did not hinder the sales to any see-able amount.

[Bryy_Miller]

Zaku49 wrote...

The glitches in New Vegas can all be solved with the console which is easy to use.

Do you mean solved or using cheats to solve them?

Because I'd really like to see how inputing a few commands in the console can save you from falling off the game world or getting stuck inside a rock.

[Meltemph]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Meltemph wrote...
So it depends on what you want to know.

What if I want to know how to support a circular argument on an internet forum?

We have a lot of examples in this topic, so I would just take your pick with the people inferring that what NV added was the reason why it did good, because the game did good, there for the things NV added was the reason... or something.  

[SmokePants]

Fable 3 was not bashed for its simplicity. That is a very, very loose interpretation. It is a very good game, whose problems come from a lack of consideration for the player in some areas.

Also, the appeal of New Vegas is hardly tied to its inclusion of a hardcore mode. That is a niche attraction for a niche audience.

[In Exile]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Zaku49 wrote...

The glitches in New Vegas can all be solved with the console which is easy to use.

Do you mean solved or using cheats to solve them?

Because I'd really like to see how inputing a few commands in the console can save you from falling off the game world or getting stuck inside a rock.

Okay, I just have to point out that when these sort of glitches happen, I actually have a bit of fun. So long as they're not too frequent (and I didn't play NV enough to really say), totally destroying the laws of physics is fun.

[thegreateski]

Only glitches I've come across is the game freezing up every once in a blue moon. Of course I can just chalk that up to the sheer size of the game itself.



also the glitch with Veronica's HP but that's not visually noticeable.

[Meltemph]

I hear the 360 version is quite bad... Few coworker friends of mine were quite aggravated the 1st week. Not sure how it has improved. I know the PC had a update a couple days ago. But ya, I had fun with some of the glitches to. I was sad though that I never experienced the head falling off the shoulders though... Would be funny to see.



Makes me wonder what kind of weird bugs DA2 will have.

[Meltemph]

also the glitch with Veronica's HP but that's not visually noticeable.

Actually if you don't get the mod bug fix, she also does not level up when you do... So ya, after you start getting farther and farther into the game she starts to suck.

[Estel78]

Catsith wrote...

It'll be interesting to see how BioWare fit into the RPG genre in the near future... they've been getting a ton of flak lately online for ME2 and now DA2, and there's a lot of devs out there right now who aren't afraid to make actual RPGs, and aren't worried about menus and inventories and stats driving a potential audience away.

You make it sound like ME2 got panned.

ME2 is one if not the best reviewed game of 2010 and by quite a few publications (big gaming sites) it's being considered a strong candidate for game of the year.

Seems like Bioware is on the right track if you ask me.

[upsettingshorts]

The biggest issues I ran into were scripting conflicts. There are fixes for them up on NewVegasNexus.com (well, fixes for some of them). The kinds of stuff where if you do quest A before quest B, quest B can't be completed because the necessary character's dialogue doesn't have the appropriate flag, etc.

And some graphical errors that have since been fixed.

Oh, and the fact opening up the launcher overwrites the Fallout.ini so I have to copy over an extra, edited copy I made into the appropriate directory each time I start the launcher - but before I press Play - so I can get Archive Invalidation to work the way it needs to for many of the mods I run. But that might have been fixed by now.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:16 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Estel78 wrote...

Catsith wrote...

It'll be interesting to see how BioWare fit into the RPG genre in the near future... they've been getting a ton of flak lately online for ME2 and now DA2, and there's a lot of devs out there right now who aren't afraid to make actual RPGs, and aren't worried about menus and inventories and stats driving a potential audience away.

You make it sound like ME2 got panned.

ME2 is one if not the best reviewed game of 2010 and by quite a few publications (big gaming sites) it's being considered a strong candidate for game of the year.

Seems like Bioware is on the right track if you ask me.

Also: is an RPG required to be complex? What I mean is that a lot of people seem to think that you NEED to have an overtly complex and messy system in order to be an RPG. An inventory doesn't need to be filled with junk you sell at a shop in order for it to be an RPG. I'd rather have a managed inventory rather than a bunch of clutter that forces me to visit the general store every hour.

I think you're mixing up gameplay with Feature Creep, which is when you have features for the sake of having features. I don't want to spend a good chunk of time figuring out which weapon or armor type would give me slightly better stats. Management is a key feature of any RPG, but it doesn't have to be overkill in order to be effective. Options for the sake of options = / = freedom.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:27 .

[AtreiyaN7]

The biggest thing in FO:NV that ticked me off was the quicksave issue. Yeah, losing a few hours of gameplay did not make me a happy camper initially, but I did work around it by saving often from the main menu (since THOSE saves functioned perfectly normally) after doing something important or before quitting the game. Fortunately, they fixed that bug pretty quickly.

[Estel78]

FedericoV wrote...

I agree: FO3 is a shooter with RPG elements.

And FO1&2 were turnbased strategy games with RPG elements. How you combat in a game does not make it more or less RPG.

[Bryy_Miller]

For instance, the options to have different colors on your armor in ME2? Not beneficial at all.

[Derengard]

I don't expect a revolution because of FO:NV any time soon, but there have been positive reactions because of its particular RPG qualities, sometimes in contrast to more disappointing examples. I personally didn't read much into it, but no matter the status of those particular game, the debate remains at the heart of the apparent direction of DA2, and the current state of game development.

[Grand_Commander13]

In Exile wrote...

But this raises another issue. If the sales are about the same, to what degree can you say the audience cares about what Obsidian did diifferently, versus the Fallout 3 user base coming out to purchase a game that is in a lot of ways similar to the first?

Any economist could answer that question: if everybody who is willing to buy a game of that formula is willing to buy the specific game if it has at least the quality to garner a legitimate 7.5 review score and it comes out with the quality to garner a 8.5, the audience cares: they enjoy the game that much more.

Of course this doesn't mean much for the horse race of sales, which while is admittedly fun is painfully inconclusive in this case and largely irrelevant to quality anyway, unless you get a game that is horrible or is terrific.  Even then things other than quality can torpedo or catapult a game's sales.

Modifié par Grand_Commander13, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[fchopin]

I pre-ordered both FNV and Gothic 4 but cancelled Gothic 4 after playing the demo.
 
Gothic 4 combat is a joke, after playing Risen i expected something good but the game is not for me.
 
I have installed FNV on my computer but haven't played the game yet, busy playing Civ 5 so cant really say anything about the game.
 
If DA2 is anything like Gothic 4 or ME2 then the game is not for me.
 
I will be buying TW2 and Deus Ex 3 next year but the way DA2 is going it doesn't look good so far.

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

But this raises another issue. If the sales are about the same, to what degree can you say the audience cares about what Obsidian did diifferently, versus the Fallout 3 user base coming out to purchase a game that is in a lot of ways similar to the first?

The average audience probably didn't care. They saw the name Fallout and jumped on it due to the success of Fallout 3. Brand recognition is a powerful thing.

A lot of hardcore Fallout fans were however drawn back to the franchise thanks to Obsidian and this I believe is the key argument here. Instead of trying to cater to the average gamer who doesn't really give a **** BioWare should cater to their core audience. A healthy core audience makes for a healthy franchise. Just look at Minecraft and how successful it has gotten thanks to word of mouth.

Modifié par Marionetten, 15 novembre 2010 - 01:17 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Fallout's world in my opinion is far more creative and original than Thedas, but then again its had over four games to beef up the backstory.



From a character standpoint Bioware creates squad-members who you can really get into, like Alistar, Zevran, etc. Fallout fails in this capacity, yes in NV you can finally talk to your squad, but you are limited to a single companion at a time and the level of interaction is no where near what DA and ME offer.



Pretty much you play New Vegas for the world and the combat, you play DA for the story and the characters

[ErichHartmann]

fchopin wrote...

I pre-ordered both FNV and Gothic 4 but cancelled Gothic 4 after playing the demo.
 
Gothic 4 combat is a joke, after playing Risen i expected something good but the game is not for me.
 
I have installed FNV on my computer but haven't played the game yet, busy playing Civ 5 so cant really say anything about the game.
 
If DA2 is anything like Gothic 4 or ME2 then the game is not for me.
 
I will be buying TW2 and Deus Ex 3 next year but the way DA2 is going it doesn't look good so far.

So you're willing to give TW2 and Deus Ex 3 the benefit of the doubt based on what?  I find it a tad ironic myself.   

[fchopin]

ErichHartmann wrote...

So you're willing to give TW2 and Deus Ex 3 the benefit of the doubt based on what?  I find it a tad ironic myself.   

For TW2 i don't need to give them the benefit of the doubt as i know approximately what the game will contain. I did have misgivings and voiced them without reservations as i do here but the developers showed game trailers which calmed my misgivings.
 
For Deus Ex 3 it's a new kind of game for me as i don't play shooters but i am willing to try it out on behalf of my friends advise as it has RPG elements and you can play the game in different ways. If i don't like it then i will not buy any more of those games.
 
DA2 (edit) will not have any of these options as far as i know and i don't like what has been shown so far, when i see a game trailer i may change my mind.

Modifié par fchopin, 15 novembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[mundus66]

Fallout New Vegas took out the freedom and the epic feeling in some of the quests. It feels more on rails now than Fallout 3 and while extra quests is nice, they aren't as good as the Fallout 3 quests. I say that Fallout 3 is the better game, even though Fallout New Vegas is less broken.

Bioware games are always depth and i haven't played a Bioware sequel that didn't listen to their fans. Pretty sure the people that loved DAO will love this game just as much/almost as much/more than DAO and everybody who hated/didn't like it, will probably like this more.

[Derengard]

ErichHartmann wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I pre-ordered both FNV and Gothic 4 but cancelled Gothic 4 after playing the demo.
 
Gothic 4 combat is a joke, after playing Risen i expected something good but the game is not for me.
 
I have installed FNV on my computer but haven't played the game yet, busy playing Civ 5 so cant really say anything about the game.
 
If DA2 is anything like Gothic 4 or ME2 then the game is not for me.
 
I will be buying TW2 and Deus Ex 3 next year but the way DA2 is going it doesn't look good so far.

So you're willing to give TW2 and Deus Ex 3 the benefit of the doubt based on what?  I find it a tad ironic myself.   

I think we could actually infer greater complexity from the previews and marketing than in case of DA2. It's not only about "complexity", mind you, but also factors like substance and authenticity. If accidental or just a logical development, DA2 falls right into a dominating mold of the time and so far tries to build on that image, seen in countless GOW-type games and a general glorification of action with "awesomeness" as its sole measure. TW2 has a kind of understated realism, where nuances count more than grandeur, and where different solution approaches (non-violent, violent, etc.) are seamlessly incorporated. It even has an open world.

Modifié par Derengard, 15 novembre 2010 - 01:51 .