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[mcsupersport]

The bear and dog analogy usually gets misinterpreted too.

She is talking about if you are out with a dog and get set upon by a bear you will always set your dog on the bear, even though it will get killed, to let you have enough time to get away. What people miss is she was saying that the Aliens of the Galaxy are the human, and humans were the dog they would set on the bear to be killed to let them get away. This is a pretty realist point of view, considering many people would choose their country over anothers especially if family involved, example you had to choose the location of a nuclear strike...choice one was your house, and choice two the capitol of another country........what gets bombed???



Ashley isn't so much racist but more just don't trust them to always be friends with us if the chips are down. This is a typical military view, and not so much racist but practical. It did seem that some of the original lines were written to give her a more racist/xenophobe view, but most were cut or changed.

[AntiChri5]

Genophage? Krogan? Yeah... Mordin isn't afraid about nuetering the Krogan and refusing that they can change or that any of them are smart. Oh the irony when we meet Okeer who proves far more intelligent than Mordin. Than there's the fact that he pretends that Wrex, and his ways, doesn't even exists...

Yeah, except that Mordin worked damn hard to not nueter the Krogan. It would have been far easier to. And he most definately acknowledges Krogan intelligence.

Mordin admires the Krogan, and blames the salarians for their current situation.



Try paying attention to the character next time.

[Elite Midget]

No, he worked to neuter them. Mordin doesn't care if they have 999/1000 stillborns. To him it means the Krogan aren't his problem anymore. Thus many Krogan women are neutered and can't habe child yet still keeping their natural pregnancy rate. This has pushed the Krogan even further towards extinction with the Salarians doing nothing other than making sure they keep the Krogan neutered.



No, he doesn't acknowledge Krogan intelligence. Nor does he believe they will ever evolve past warfare. That is why he wants them to stay neutered with a 999/1000 stillborn rate. Hell, Mordin even mentions that Genophage is the 'only' path for the Krogan and has no faith that they'll evolve past their past mindsets.



As I say again...



It's ironic how Mordin bad talks Krogan, also pulling every excuse in the book to keep them neutered, and is sure they will never change or ever prove intelligent. Than he comes upon Wrex, who proves that Krogan can change, and Okeer the smartest Krogan Scientist to exist. Far smarter than speciest Mordin.



Mordin is one of the only true Speciest Squadmember in ME.

[Xilizhra]

Um... most of this stuff is magnificently wrong. Mordin very specifically didn't sterilize all of the krogan; he wanted their species to live on. Moreover, he blamed the salarians' own cultural uplifting for the krogan being in the condition that they are; his only motivation was the protection of as much life as possible.



Also, he still feels guilty, or at least bad, about the whole issue. And retains hope that they'll be able to evolve themselves past being a danger.

[Elite Midget]

Talk about curing the Genophage which Mordin will argue against. Mordin assures you he did what was necessary when he modified the Genophage and is sure that Krogan will never change. Thus they must always be neutered and considered second class citizens in the galaxy.

Edit:

Mordin has no hope for the Krogan hence why he pulls every excuse in the book to keep them as neutered as possible. The only way he changes his mind is if Shepard pushes him and tells him that he was wrong to Generalize Krogan and that neutering them again based on what happened in the past, that no current day Krogan had a hand in, isn't right.
Hell, Mordin is surprised that the Blood Pack got so angry over their dead children that they began taking female Krogan volunteers to try and cure the Genophage. This is something he neve forsaw since he doesn't believe any Krogan is smart or would even try to educate themselves to cure their affliction. Of course Mordin's old buddy boosted progress for the Blood Pack.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[AntiChri5]

Bull****.

If they are having children then they are not neutered. Mordin worked very hard to maintain krogan birthrates at a stable level rather then simply making them unable to have children (neutering them) which would have been far easier.

Wrex himself says that the genophage is not what is killing the krogan.

Mordin acknowledges krogan intelligence, he mentions that there are "outliers in every species. Geniuses worth saving." and compliments Wrex's intelligence after his loyalty mission.

The genophage is the only path for the krogan because it balances out what the salarians did to them. The salararians gave them technology the krogan were not ready for and could not handle responsibly. They proved this.

There needed to be a method to make the krogan have a stable birthrate that would not kill them out while balancing their massive natural birthrate. The genophage does that. He says that the salarians did not allow the krogan to evolve properly, and work out their aggression/balance out their birthrate. The salarians denied them the opportunity to become more.

And then they introduced the genophage to give them that chance. The krogan could not be allowed to continue as they were. The genophage artificially balances things. Rather then simply wipe them out the salarians gave them time to sort out their aggresion.

And there is no evidence to suggest that Okeer is more intelligent then Mordin. Quite the opposite.

[Elite Midget]

They are neutered because 999/1000 of all children DIE IN THE WOMB because the Krogan bodies were modified to kill the babies ass they developed! Only a select few females aren't neutered in the sense that their babies come out alive.



Mordin worked hard to release a modified Virus that kills babies in the womb. It doesn't effect the chance of pregnancy at all. The Krogan mothers are literally killing the babies inside themselfs because the Genophage is forcing their body to do so. Thus the Krogan, as a race, have been neutered. Tell me, how the heck is 999/1000 stillborns a stable Birth Rate? It doesn't take into consideration outside factors or the FACT that their homeworld is a harsh wasteland killing many of them off.



The Genophage has stunned gworth of the Krogan and has caused many Krogan to cease careing about life. Hence why many Krogan leave their home to serve as Mercenaries and Bodyguards because their race, as they know it, HAS NO FUTURE. The Genophage caused that mindset in young Krogan. The Salarians failed to instill responsibility in to the newly uplifted Krogan. After the Genophage they sat back and left the Krogan to their own devices yet again.



Yeah, smart move. You order the Krogan to wipe out the Rachnii as your grunts of war than neuter them when they become too much trouble. Than they neuter them again when the Krogan as a race was evolving past the Genophage because they fear the Krogan wont change. Which is also their own fault. Kinda hard to change when you leave them to rot in their homeworld with all those new toys of war you gave them. You'know, instead of maybe helping to stablize their homeworld and make life more viable.



Genophage ISN'T the only path for Krogan. Saying so is a SPECIEST thing to say since you're punishing all Krogan for what happened in the past when their actions back than were because of Salarian incompetence. Here, let me make it easier for you.



New Era Krogan: All our kids are dieing ijn the womb! None of the other species are helping us or showing us a path outside of Violence and Betrayal! Hell, I wasen't even born when the Genophage was unleashed!

Slaraian SPECIEST: All Krogan are stupid, dumb, and will never change! Mordin, genophage them again!

Mordin the Head SPECIEST: I agree, Genophage only path for Krogan! There's no such thing as Krogan Scientist or that they will ever change!

-Years Later-

Shepard: Krogan are stupid and can't change? Isn't that kinda racist?

Mordin the Head SPECIEST: No, it's all true! That's why they need Genophage because no Krogan can be trusted to be responsible like us Salarians!

Shepard: What about Okeer and Wrex? I mean, Okeer might even be smarter than you and Wrex is changing the Krogan. I thought you said it was impossible.

Mordin the Head SPECIEST: ....GENOPHAGE IS THE ONLY PATH!





The Genophage kills babies in the womb. It doesn't balance out anything. It's genocide at its worse. They punished the guilty Krogan yet they still see the need to punish current day Krogan for the sins of their ancestors.



What chance did the Genophage give them? They didn't even tell the Krogan that the Genophage was supposed to alter birthrates. Instead they placed blame on the Turians, since they dropped the Genophage, and believe that the Genophage, as it is, is perfect. I don't know about you but a 999/1000 stillborn rate is genocide on a constant basis to me. The fact that the Genophage acts like a virus and kills babies in the womb only makes it even worse.



Only a SPECIEST would believe that killing babies in the womb is for the 'good of said inferior race since we refuse to take responsibility and uplift the Krogan correctly'.



Also, there's plenty of evidence that Okeer was a genius compared to Mordin. Grunt is a creation that trumps everything that Mordin has ever accomplished in his life. Not to mention that Mordin believe all Krogan are idiots only to have Okeer come along and one up him without even trying. Than there's his loyalty mission where he only changes his bias and SPECEST opinion after encountering Wrex in his Loyalty Mission.

[SimonTheFrog]

sorry to be anal, but isn't this a thread for the characters section?



ot, she's just a good soldier: she is motivated to protect her turf against any opposition. And she sees possible opposition everywhere. So, she's kinda prepared to grab the rifle at any time.

And she doesn't take the galactic community notion very seriously, which seems to be the wise thing to do (even though i personally would feel great in such a universe).

I think it's hilarious that she doesn't use pc terms to express that stance. The "we are all animals" is just awesome as a memorial speech!



But i agree, it would be awesome to have her getting to trust aliens a bit more. I mean generally... they are not all bad

[Homey C-Dawg]

mcsupersport wrote...

What people miss is she was saying that the Aliens of the Galaxy are the human, and humans were the dog they would set on the bear to be killed to let them get away.

Agree completely. The salarians already did the dog thing with the krogans, then they sicked another dog on their old dog with the turians. Ashley was talking pretty practical, especially considering that she had a professional/social stigma attached to her because of aliens.

I can't agree with the Mordin being racist (speciest?) since he's pretty much right. After thousands of years the Krogan are self-admittedly never going to change. Most that haven't lost hope seem to be waiting for another chance to take over the galaxy. (Although that krogan on tuchanka lamenting about wanting to raise a son almost broke my heart). Mordin is just a "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" kinda guy. I especially liked when he said he would have argued against using the genophage had he been there originally, but now must work within the confines of whats already been done. Very practical.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Iakus]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

But i agree, it would be awesome to have her getting to trust aliens a bit more. I mean generally... they are not all bad

A pity the VIrmire Survivor had such a tiny role in ME2, we could have seen if there was any real change,.

[AntiChri5]

That post is so full of exageration, misinterpretations and outright fabrication.

A species that can reproduce cannot be said to have been nuetered. It's simply factually wrong to say that.

If Krogan culture can not adapt enough to shelter their young then it's their own damn fault. If they did not insist on constantly killing each other and focused on breeding they would be fine. Wrex says as much.

If they believed the krogan could not change they would not have bothered with the genophage, they would have simply exterminated them, as they easily could have done.

Mordin himself says that the genophage was not a punishment, which is why he didn't wipe them out.

Wrex himself says it is not the genophage killing the krogan. And he is the one to say there are no krogan scientist.

Okeer is simply a warlord who dabbles in genetics, Mordin is the best geneticist the stg could find. He spent his career studying the krogan and has an actual scientific education. Read their dossiers. Tim wants you to recruit Okeer for his combat experience. And Mordin for his scientific skills. It's a no brainer.



Pay attention what is actually in the game.

[Fiery Phoenix]

1) Ashley was never racist; just distrustful.
2) If romanced by a Paragon Shepard, her attitude towards aliens changes, and she becomes surprisingly supportive of them.
3) Ashley's behavior on Horizon shouldn't be taken too literally.

[Admiral Awsome]

Ashley also had a reason to be distrustful. I recall this being mentioned in another thread, so I'll restate it here: Ashley is an Alliance non-comissioned officer serving on the most advanced ship in the Alliance fleet and has security concerns over having alien nationals on board.

[Elite Midget]

Mordin isn't glad enough it seems since he's fine that the Genophage is a virus that murders babies inside their mothers wombs. Had he cared what the Krogan thought he would have pushed to change the pregnancy chances instead of updateing a Virus that murders babies in the womb. Ergo, Mordin doesn't believe they can ever change and thus they, as a racist, must be permantly neutered.



So you're saying that a 999/1000 BABY MURDER RATE isn't neutering? The race can't support itself in such a high death rate outside of their control.



Oh? Blame the Krogan because the Salarians failed them and neuthered them twice because they refuse to take responsibility? Yeah, you know what we call that on Earth? Blaming the victim.



Krogan: My baby dies in my womb!

SPECIEST: YOUR FAULT!



PS: This may be about Ashley but I presented a double standard that Aliens seem to get by those that love to falsly believe that Ashley is racist. Mordin has shown far more racist tendencies and generalizes all Krogan as stupid warmongers that must be neutered. Thus it is valid example.





On the Ashley point...



Ashley makes mention that she hates Cerberus because they're Racist Terrorist. While in ME1 she shows outright hatred for the racist political party trying to gain power in the citadel.

[GodWood]

[SandTrout]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Ashley also had a reason to be distrustful. I recall this being mentioned in another thread, so I'll restate it here: Ashley is an Alliance non-comissioned officer serving on the most advanced ship in the Alliance fleet and has security concerns over having alien nationals on board.

I'm with him. I served in the Navy and had foreign visitors onboard, and while we were perfectly friendly with them, we intentionally blocked them from certain areas of the ship. I don't think that the foreign nations were 'lesser beings' or anything like that, it's just that their core interests don't neccessarily correspond with mine.

I love Ashley as a character because of all the flack overly-judgmental players throw her way. It helps me appreciate her situation better because I agree with her on nearly all points. If we had made first contact, I would be as cynical as anyone as to any alien's motives.

[AntiChri5]

Mordin isn't glad enough it seems since he's fine that the Genophage is a virus that murders babies inside their mothers wombs. Had he cared what the Krogan thought he would have pushed to change the pregnancy chances instead of updateing a Virus that murders babies in the womb. Ergo, Mordin doesn't believe they can ever change and thus they, as a racist, must be permantly neutered.

Wrong. Mordin prays over the corpse of a dead female krogan. If Mordin wanted to wipe the krogan out or thought they had no potential he would have wiped them out. He easily could have. Yet he worked harder to ensure that their birthrate did not drop. Pay attention to what is in the game

So you're saying that a 999/1000 BABY MURDER RATE isn't neutering? The race can't support itself in such a high death rate outside of their control.

Wrex says that the krogan can support themselves. He says it is not the genophage that was killing the krogan but the inability of the krogan to stop killing each other and breed. This proves that the krogan are not nuetered. The most thoughtful Krogan we ever encounter says they can reproduce enough to survive and support themselves. Pay attention to what is in the game.

Oh? Blame the Krogan because the Salarians failed them and neuthered them twice because they refuse to take responsibility? Yeah, you know what we call that on Earth? Blaming the victim.

The krogan are responsible for their own damn actions. Did the salarians use them? Yes. Mordin calls them out on it. The krogan are not innocent victims.

Mordin has shown far more racist tendencies and generalizes all Krogan as stupid warmongers that must be neutered

Not in the least. He never does any of that. Pay attention to what is in the game.



Mordin saved the galaxy from the krogan, and he saved the krogan from the galaxy.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ashley's more a pessimist than a xenophobe. She doesn't believe that the alien nations will help her own when it matters most. This isn't because she believes other species are are inherently untrustworthy but that everyone looks out for their own interests first, way ahead of anyone else.

[fongiel24]

Elite Midget wrote...

Mordin isn't glad enough it seems since he's fine that the Genophage is a virus that murders babies inside their mothers wombs. Had he cared what the Krogan thought he would have pushed to change the pregnancy chances instead of updateing a Virus that murders babies in the womb. Ergo, Mordin doesn't believe they can ever change and thus they, as a racist, must be permantly neutered.

So you're saying that a 999/1000 BABY MURDER RATE isn't neutering? The race can't support itself in such a high death rate outside of their control.

Oh? Blame the Krogan because the Salarians failed them and neuthered them twice because they refuse to take responsibility? Yeah, you know what we call that on Earth? Blaming the victim.

Krogan: My baby dies in my womb!
SPECIEST: YOUR FAULT!

PS: This may be about Ashley but I presented a double standard that Aliens seem to get by those that love to falsly believe that Ashley is racist. Mordin has shown far more racist tendencies and generalizes all Krogan as stupid warmongers that must be neutered. Thus it is valid example.


On the Ashley point...

Ashley makes mention that she hates Cerberus because they're Racist Terrorist. While in ME1 she shows outright hatred for the racist political party trying to gain power in the citadel.

Maelon? Is that you?

[Nightwriter]

Chris, I'm thinking this is one of those arguments you probably shouldn't bother with. "Mordin is a racist" is the kind of statement that is to be laughed at, y'know?

[AntiChri5]

But......:Nighty, someone is wrong. On the internet.

[V-rex]

I'm not going to get involved with the Mordin Debate here for that is irrelevant. Instead my focus is squarely on Ashley.

*ahem*

Ashley is not racist. Never was and (hopefully) never will be, her distrust of aliens can be attributed to simple caution, not hatred. And she isn't merely cautious because they are different, she has a right to be cautious. In addition to having never worked with aliens prior, Ashley is unfamiliar with them, also her grandfather surrendered Shanxi to the Turians in the First Contact war and ever since then her family name has been blacklisted in Alliance Military, and that is the reason for her grudge.
She doesn't hate aliens, she is just pessimistic that they can be relied on as allies.

That said, regardless of player interaction, she will still always happily volunteer to assist the Salarian Team on Virmire, angrily lash out at the Terra Firma demonstration and continue to disagree with them even if Shepard agrees with them, she also at one point hopes for improved relations with the Quarians thanks to Tali helping them out in the Saren mission as well as maintaining that she doesn't think humanity is superior.
Also if you bring Ashley and Wrex to Noveria, things change and she instead says that she doesn't want the death of a whole people to be on her conscience.

So basically when she is 'paragoned' (you know she loved it) you don't convince her that aliens and humans are equals, as she never disputed that idea, you instead convince her to be mad at the Alliance for what happened to her family name as well as to not be quite so cynical and try to learn new things.
The fact that she agrees indicates that she has the capacity, well and truly, to be open minded about these things. She just needed someone to spell it out for her is all.

So Ashley never truly was racist to begin with and yes, she can have the capacity to move on past her beliefs and see things a different way.... and then... Bioware go ahead and do a complete 180 on us and she says:
"I'm no fan of aliens."
To be fair when you remember exactly why she isn't a fan of aliens and the extent of what that means, that can still mean that she isn't racist, just merely pessimistic. But as far as the whiny youtube commenters of the world go, that was all they needed to brand the usual:
"Racist B*tch"
Label again that they are so proud of, even though in that scene Ashley is spending the whole time being mad at Shepard for working with a fanatically pro human terrorist cell.


I guess what I'm saying to all this is that Ashley never was racist and yes she can be made more open minded about her beliefs, but sadly so far Bioware didn't think it important enough to make that change in character consistent through both games so she reverts back to her old self in the second.
Worst case scenerio is that she undergoes 'Flanderization' in the third game and gets made into an angry alien hater just like people proclaim she is. Which would just be wrong on so many levels.

But as it stands the 'Ashley is Racist' label is really an example of 'Ron The Death Eater' going into effect, wherein the character is made into a villain or at least worse than they really are via perceptions by the audience, in fact I think the TV Tropes page describes this one the best:

"Ashley also gets it from another angle - her (somewhat justified) dislike of other alien races, and Turians especially, comes from the fact that thanks to the Turians, her family name is now essentially mud in the Alliance military. She actually expresses hope for improved relations with the Quarians thanks to Tali's assistance in one case. However, the Hatedom flanderizes her caution into outright, blind, unreasoning hatred."

So yeah to wrap it up, Ashley never was racist, can be made more open minded and hopefully she won't be turned into a caricature of what people have made her into in the third game. Also, as the people on the Ashley thread can attest, Ash is worth it.

Modifié par V-rex, 15 novembre 2010 - 09:52 .