84 réponses à ce sujet

[Babli]

Maybe she isn´t racist. But that doesn´t change, that she survives Virmire only in one of my five playtrhoughs

[wookieeassassin]

I think Elite Midget is in fact a Krogran. Dude, having only 1 in 1000 births be successful isn't killing 999 of them, its making it so that only 1 in 1000 actually starts a successful pregnancy.



Yeah the Salarians were wrong to use them in the Rachni wars and give them tech before they were ready but its not like the genophage literally takes every 999 out of 1000 Krogran and shoots them. Nor is it doing the equivalent of third term abortions on them.

[wookieeassassin]

I suppose I did misread her/not understand her in the first game. It was a while ago. She did want the Rachni queen destroyed (which I guess wasn't a black/white decision) but she did have that quote about "telling aliens from animals". If her attitude was more that she didn't trust alien nationals on an Alliance vessel because they weren't in the Alliance I can see that, but it came off as "I don't trust aliens." In reality though, Commander Pressly was actually the racist, but he changed near the end of ME1, at least that is what the Normandy Crash site in ME2 said on a datapad.



Yeah, I hope Ashely isn't a xenophobe/racist in ME3 either...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

wookieeassassin wrote...

I suppose I did misread her/not understand her in the first game. It was a while ago. She did want the Rachni queen destroyed (which I guess wasn't a black/white decision) but she did have that quote about "telling aliens from animals". If her attitude was more that she didn't trust alien nationals on an Alliance vessel because they weren't in the Alliance I can see that, but it came off as "I don't trust aliens." In reality though, Commander Pressly was actually the racist, but he changed near the end of ME1, at least that is what the Normandy Crash site in ME2 said on a datapad.

Yeah, I hope Ashely isn't a xenophobe/racist in ME3 either...

I'm not sure that's the best way to test people's opinions on things. She cahnges her mind if Wrex is there. And there  is always someone who wants teh Rachni queen destroyed, no matter who you take.

[gethslayer7]

?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mass Effect always has one person be the devil's/angel's advocate, usually weighted by degrees. The more Renegade person will advocate the more renegade option, and vice versa. Ash starts as more Renegade, but she can be surpassed by Wrex and a Renegaded Kaiden (possibly a Renegaded Garrus as well).

[_purifico_]

mcsupersport wrote...

The bear and dog analogy usually gets misinterpreted too.
She is talking about if you are out with a dog and get set upon by a bear you will always set your dog on the bear, even though it will get killed, to let you have enough time to get away. What people miss is she was saying that the Aliens of the Galaxy are the human, and humans were the dog they would set on the bear to be killed to let them get away. This is a pretty realist point of view, considering many people would choose their country over anothers especially if family involved, example you had to choose the location of a nuclear strike...choice one was your house, and choice two the capitol of another country........what gets bombed???

Ashley isn't so much racist but more just don't trust them to always be friends with us if the chips are down. This is a typical military view, and not so much racist but practical. It did seem that some of the original lines were written to give her a more racist/xenophobe view, but most were cut or changed.

I'm feeling very sorry for her dog if that is the case. Human's best friend my ass.

[MatronAdena]

considering ash says: " I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of being extremists " Im pretty sure she's not really...open...yet, though perhaps ' slightly less bigoted' than she was.

[SandTrout]

It's possible she knows how her opinions are viewed by others, and thus uses admitting a fault as a rhetorical device to make her point. People do it frequently even if they don't put it in those terms.

[Count Viceroy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 a Renegaded Kaiden .

I've actually never seen this, did it require a romance or am I just blinded by my Carth bias? 

[Dean_the_Young]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 a Renegaded Kaiden .

I've actually never seen this, did it require a romance or am I just blinded by my Carth bias? 

Only femshep can,t though you don't have tosleep with him.

[Elite Midget]

AntiChri5 wrote...

But......:Nighty, someone is wrong. On the internet.

Yes, someone is wrong on the internet. It's up to me to correct them being wrong by showing them that Mordin is more racist than Ashley could ever have hoped to be.

[Count Viceroy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 a Renegaded Kaiden .

I've actually never seen this, did it require a romance or am I just blinded by my Carth bias? 

Only femshep can,t though you don't have tosleep with him.

I stayed the hell away from Carth on my femshep. Like i stay hell the away from Jacob. Oh the horror.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 15 novembre 2010 - 10:57 .

[AntiChri5]

Yes, someone is wrong on the internet. It's up to me to correct them being wrong by showing them that Mordin is more racist than Ashley could ever have hoped to be.

Neither of then are racist, but if one must be said to be closer it would have to be Ashley. Nothing you have said about Mordin is supported by the game.

[Razorsedge820]

Ashley was never a racist./thread

[lovgreno]

I never saw Ashley as outright racist but rather prefering to not being too dependant on aliens. Wich is rather fair considering that humanity is very new on the galactic political scene. I would say Ashley is at best a nationalist and at worst a isolationist. She is however smart enough to not hate aliens just because they are different than humans so she don't qualify as a racist to me. She even goes to great lenghts to work with aliens despite her feelings about them as she realises that humanity have to share the galaxy with them. Wich I figure is also why she is so strongly opposed to Cerberus.

[Elite Midget]

I believe it is very much supported in the game. Hence why a Majority of Quarians, including Tali herself, support enslaving or wiping out the Geth. As for Mordin. I believe it says something about his racism when he believes Genophage is the only way and ignores any mental effects it has on the Krogan as a people. After all, Genophage is the 'only' path, in Mordin's eyes, since you are all savage beasts that can't be trusted outside of massive dead babies hindering their growth.

[Bebbe777]

And to quote Ash. "Humans or aliens, we are all animals".

Ash is just looking out for her own kind, she doesnt justify violence against aliens or genocide.

She hates the current Terra Firma and Cerberus.

[wookieeassassin]

Elite Midget, you act as this is real. No Krogran ever actually die from the genophagel their births just never come to be. It's like if you use contraception, the chances of a female getting pregnant are very low but there will still be those that will slip through. All the genophage does is decrease the amount of successful pregnancies by 1000 times. Instead of having a million krogan born a year only 100 will be born. I don't understand how you can't understand that the genophage isn't the equivalent of 999/1000 births ending in late term abortion.



Mordin believes that the Krogan breeding as fast as they do is dangerous because their species in the past started a hugeass war that lasted for decades. Read about the Krogan rebellions. The Council gave them a lot of nice habitable worlds for all the good they did in the Rachni Wars and lots more survived on those easier planets. Their population exploded and tried to/took worlds already inhabited by other Council species. The Council told them to cut it out and they refused. They were breeding so fast that a Krogan defeat basically meant nothing, because their population was basically limitless. Here is something from the wiki: "But the krogan responded with characteristically horrific attacks on turian worlds, using asteroids as weapons and rendering three planets totally uninhabitable. " The Salarians developed a way to keep their species alive instead of totally destroying it, but in a way that would keep the Krogan from being so damn aggressive in their expansion.



Yeah, it sucks that the Krogan can't breed a whole lot but they have to deal with the repercussions of previous actions. That isn't to say they can't have another chance, but people continue to forget that the Krogan haven't been wiped out, they just aren't allowed to have space fleets. Its actually similar in the military respect to Japan, who is forbidden to have an army, navy, or air force. They are only allowed to have a self defense force because their actions in world war 2 were that of aggressive expansion.



As far as the Geth and the Quarians are concerned, that is a stranger issue, since the Geth are synthetics. They don't even think the same as organics and they don't feel pain. However, it never really says for sure as long as I know, but I'm assuming the Quarians freaked the heck out and started dismantling them once they showed signs of sapience (not dismantling them because Geth started attacking Quarians), which is at least somewhat understandable.



However, attacking a "species" out of fear isn't really all that noble either. Quarian attitudes towards the Geth are expected to be harsh. The Geth, after all, did kick them off their homeworld and their entire race would be extinct if they weren't so ship/tech savvy. I doubt many Quarians were raised to think that attacking the Geth first was wrong (I'm assuming all the Geth were doing is being sapient here, not attacking Quarians). The thing about sapient machines is also different because the fear of uprising is even greater because you don't know how intelligent they could become. With another species they are limited by genetics, but if software can improve upon itself who knows how intelligent and dangerous it can be.

[Elite Midget]

No, it doesn't effect pregnancy rates. Female Krogan still get pregnant as they used to only that only a few Krogan women can give birth to live young. Which is why Fertile females, who's babies don't die in the womb, are highly sought after and gained much power after the Genophage. Thus the Genophage is a virus that murders babies in the womb thus making it impossible for many female Krogans to ever give birth to living children.



Those actions occured LONG before current day Krogan were even thought of. You honestly believe that a current day Krogan should suffer and be punished on a daily basis because his Great-Great-Great-Grandpa was in the Krogan Rebellions? The Krogan are as good as extinct since they were given WMD's yet they weren't uplifted culturally or given innovations that would make living on their harsh homeworld any better.



After the Genophage they had a chance to start over with the Krogan yet the Salarians ignored them outside of monitoring the Genophage.

[Flamewielder]

To clarify:

The Genophage Codex Entry states:

"The salarians believed the genophage would be used as a deterrent, a position the turians viewed as naive. Once the project was complete, the turians mass produced and deployed it. The krogan homeworld, their colonies, and all occupied worlds were infected.
The resulting mutation made only one in a thousand krogan pregnancies carry to term. It did not reduce fertility, but offspring viability (emphasis added by me) The rare females able to carry children to term became prizes the krogan warlords fought brutal battles over."

Therefore, one cannot accuse the Salarians of being racists for merely developping the genophage, as they only intended to use it as a deterrent (unless you feel the researchers of the Manhathan Project to be racists). The Turians, while not being deliberately cruel, are definitely ruthless when difficult decisions are required. Their dedication to duty and litteral application of rules makes them liable to shoot first and let the Salarians analyse the cinders later...

The mechanism of the genophage implies that the genophage virus attacks the embyo, likely causing miscarriages in most instances but likely also some horrific late-term miscarriages in rare instances (where the embryo showed exceptional vitality, otherwise it would not have survived beyond a few days or weeks in the womb).

Bottom line: while the Salarians saw the genophage as a preferable alternative to outright genocide, it is far from being as tidy as simply slowing down a krogan female's reproductive cycle.

But to get back on topic, I feel Ashley is no more xenophobic than Captain Anderson is. She certainly knows how to put her foot in her mouth, but she is no alien-hater. Turians don't bother with niceties when they stumble upon a previously unknown spacefaring species (humans) trying to unlock a closed mass relay in violation of Council law: they simply shoot; just as they would have shot one of their own. Turians don't discriminate against humans: they discriminate agains law-breakers.

Aliens are aliens. They are culturally different from humans. Sometimes it makes them likeable, sometimes it makes them our enemies. Every species, even Council ones, jockeys for advantage with the others. As Anderson explains in ME1, other Council species "funnel" Humanity's expansion into the Attican Traverse where they are in constant conflict with the Terminus Systems and Batarian Hegemony. This way, Council Space expands without Council military involvement (the Alliance fleet alone carrying the burden of protecting these colonies).

I'm as paragonish as the next galactic hero, but I'm not blind either... Insofar as the Council offers a venue to peacefully resolve conflicts among member species, it is worthy of support. Does that mean humanity should blindly bow to every whim of the Council and concede everything? Certainly not!

Ashley doesn't trust aliens? Well that's a prudent attitude. She also doesn't like smugglers, slavers, guys who sleep on the job (and survive while his hardworking co-workers get slaughtered).

On a meta-gaming level, if the writers intend to do something with Ash in ME3 or any ME2 DLC, they needed her attitude/outlook to be as neutral as they could make her, so that whatever morality trend you gave your ME1 Shepard to take, her responses would more or less fit. They essentially "reset" Ash to her starting persona in ME1, making what little adjustments they could (i.e. hugging her former LI).

It also makes it easier to adapt the Ashley-Shepard relationship, with newly created Shepard able to establish a "first" relation and an imported Shepard re-building the original relation in future ME products.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[Schneidend]

Ashley can't stop something she was never doing to begin with.

She isn't racist. She isn't even really xenophobic. A "phobia" is irrational. Her argument for being prepared to "go it alone" without the Council races' support if necessary is perfectly reasonable.

[Raanz]

Schneidend wrote...

Ashley can't stop something she was never doing to begin with.
She isn't racist. She isn't even really xenophobic. A "phobia" is irrational. Her argument for being prepared to "go it alone" without the Council races' support if necessary is perfectly reasonable.

QFT.
Ashley never came across as racist to me.  Did she have a distrust of other species based on past events in her life? Yeah maybe.  Sometimes I wonder if some folks just click through para or rene responses just to get through the dialog as quick as possible.

[wookieeassassin]

As far as the Krogan are concerned, are you sure it just doesn't make pregnancies not work? I know for certain krogan females aren't birthing full size dead Krogan babies.

I don't necessarily think that having most pregnancies not come to term means that baby Krogan are dying in the womb, at least at any developed stage. It sounds to me like they die around the embryo stage to me, which is technically killing them I suppose.

Here: www.youtube.com/watch  Mordin says it affects fertility, around 2-3 minutes. That is why I thought what I did. He said the Krogan were adapting to the original genophage and he and his team modified it. I'm assuming they made it fertility based instead of related to offspring viability. Either that or they decided to contradict the codex entry from ME1 (that was ME1 right, I don't remember genophage entry in ME2) because it made it more of a "gray" decision.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 16 novembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[kraidy1117]

Ash has good reasons why she mistrust aliens, it has nothing to do with her thinking humanity is teh best or aliens suck.



She also changes her views as the game goes on, however who wrote her dialog in ME2 deserves to be smacked, that person through everything out the window that Chris did in ME -.-