141 réponses à ce sujet

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

Their military is a decent size, I think. I'll admit that Udina is kind of terrible, though.

Udina is fine. He is reasonable and politically savvy. Anderson is the one that just blindly believes whatever Shepard says. The Alliance simply has not been aggressive enough politically.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

When that we know of has Cerberus used terrorism?

Terrorist-esque. The attack on the Migrant Fleet.

The migrant fleet made itself a target for a retrieval operation when it inserted itself into Cerberus's own affairs.

The thresher maw incident, although that might not have counted since the dead were combatants.

And that it wasn't aimed to inspire terror/push a political position/even known as anything but a tragic accident for years after.

[Xilizhra]

FOR THE LAST GODSDAMNED TIME, IT'S REIN! REIN!!



Ahem.



Is this information coming from Retribution or something? If so, it leaves no indication as to whether or not Anderson would do anything similar without being so overtly hostile (and I'm not sure if REINING in the Spectres is a good thing).

[Xilizhra]

The migrant fleet made itself a target for a retrieval operation when it inserted itself into Cerberus's own affairs.

And so a whole ship needs to get blown up for it? Nice. Getting attacked by terrorists because you pissed them off somehow doesn't make them any nicer.

And that it wasn't aimed to inspire terror/push a political position/even known as anything but a tragic accident for years after.

This is why I said terrorist-esque, without saying it was itself a terrorist action.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

FOR THE LAST GODSDAMNED TIME, IT'S REIN! REIN!!

Ahem.

Is this information coming from Retribution or something? If so, it leaves no indication as to whether or not Anderson would do anything similar without being so overtly hostile

It's in ME2 if you killed the Council and put Udina in charge. It the reason why you can't get Spectre status back. There is nevery any similar mention of Anderson doing such a thing.

(and I'm not sure if REINING in the Spectres is a good thing).

Reigning in people who can legally do Cerberus atrocities and see the government turn a blind eye is always a good thing.

[lovgreno]

The Normandy crew doesn't follow Cerberus agenda, they are only there to do something about the dissapearing colonies. They are with Shepard, not TIMmy. The only one on board who truly belives in TIM and Cerberus is Miranda and even she is sceptical enough to be easily turned against the generaly inefficent organisation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The migrant fleet made itself a target for a retrieval operation when it inserted itself into Cerberus's own affairs.

And so a whole ship needs to get blown up for it? Nice. Getting attacked by terrorists because you pissed them off somehow doesn't make them any nicer.

You do understand valid military targets remain valid even when they have civilians inside, yes?


And, again, terrorist label. Justify.

This is why I said terrorist-esque, without saying it was itself a terrorist action.

Terrorist-esque without terrorism is simply criminal. Nothing more. Drop the buzzword.

[Xilizhra]

It's in ME2 if you killed the Council and put Udina in charge. It the reason why you can't get Spectre status back. There is nevery any similar mention of Anderson doing such a thing.

And the volus stuff?

Reigning in people who can legally do Cerberus atrocities and see the government turn a blind eye is always a good thing.

But... you support Cerberus.

You do understand valid military targets remain valid even when they have civilians inside, yes?

How is it a "valid military target?" Cerberus isn't a legal military force.

Terrorist-esque without terrorism is simply criminal. Nothing more. Drop the buzzword.

You have a point, and I actually feel bad about this. It's simple mass murder.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's in ME2 if you killed the Council and put Udina in charge. It the reason why you can't get Spectre status back. There is nevery any similar mention of Anderson doing such a thing.

And the volus stuff?

If you let the Council dies, the Volus are given a colony world in Alliance space in return for a decisive vote.

But... you support Cerberus.

I also support bringing them to heel, once doing so doesn't do more damage to the galaxy than not.

How is it a "valid military target?" Cerberus isn't a legal military force.

Cerberus also isn't the one targetted.

If you're going to call them terrorists because they attack a ship, and the ship is a military target, the question of how it's terrorism comes again.

Did they target the ship as an objective of a military operation? Or was blowing up the ship at all the point, in order to form fear and try and force political terror?

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lovgreno wrote...

The Normandy crew doesn't follow Cerberus agenda, they are only there to do something about the dissapearing colonies. They are with Shepard, not TIMmy. The only one on board who truly belives in TIM and Cerberus is Miranda and even she is sceptical enough to be easily turned against the generaly inefficent organisation.

My Shepard follows TIM, so by the transitive property of following people, my crew follows TIM.

[HopHazzard]

lovgreno wrote...

The Normandy crew doesn't follow Cerberus agenda, they are only there to do something about the dissapearing colonies. They are with Shepard, not TIMmy. The only one on board who truly belives in TIM and Cerberus is Miranda and even she is sceptical enough to be easily turned against the generaly inefficent organisation.

I don't think TIM actually cares if the people working for him buy into Cerberus's agenda or not as long as they get the job done. TIM has a goal. He finds the best people he can for the job, gives them money and resources, and tells them to get it done. Sometimes this means finding people unethical enough to study the effect of Thresher Maw venom on soldiers in real life combat situations. Sometimes this means getting together a group of kickass Big Damn Heroes to save the galaxy from the Reapers. At the end of the day, if it turns out in Humanity's favor, that's all that matters to TIM. Other people, of course feel differently.

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

My Shepard follows TIM, so by the transitive property of following people, my crew follows TIM.

Is that a P&F reference? If so, awesome.

Modifié par HopHazzard, 15 novembre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Xilizhra]

If you let the Council dies, the Volus are given a colony world in Alliance space in return for a decisive vote.

Ah, so it's pure self-interest. Yes, that helps a great deal.

I also support bringing them to heel, once doing so doesn't do more damage to the galaxy than not.

So facing the Reapers is the best time to do this to the Spectres as well?

Cerberus also isn't the one targetted.

What does this have to do with anything? How can you claim to be using military action against a military target if you're not a military?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you let the Council dies, the Volus are given a colony world in Alliance space in return for a decisive vote.

Ah, so it's pure self-interest. Yes, that helps a great deal.

Enlightened self-interest is still enlightened. If you reject good things simply because you don't approve of the motivations, you'll take a lot of good out of this world.

So facing the Reapers is the best time to do this to the Spectres as well?

The Spectres aren't focused on the Reapers (as an extension of the Council not being focused on them either).

Moreover, 'not giving out Spectre status easily' is hardly taking down the Spectres that already exist.

What does this have to do with anything? How can you claim to be using military action against a military target if you're not a military?

Because whether you, personally, are military or not is irrelevant to whether what you're attacking is a valid military target or not.

The crime and context of, say, attacking a military base versus blowing up a schoolyard are so different it shouldn't need reminding.

[Asheer_Khan]

So cerberus can kill civilians, attacking Alien ships and of course murdered childrens "In name of humanity advancement" but for the Spectres is no place in Human ruled Council universe?<_<

I wont be surprised if in renegade setup of ME 3 will turn out that entire C-Sec is pure human only organization with Bailey as C-Sec head... this whole "HUMANITY UBER ALLES" bull **** which plague ME since Walters took over made me really sick...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 15 novembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Enlightened self-interest is still enlightened. If you reject good things simply because you don't approve of the motivations, you'll take a lot of good out of this world.

The humans are good for the volus yes. They're also bad for asari, salarians and turians. It's unclear as to how their actions will affect other species but to look for effects on a local level, the numerous race riots on the Citadel are certainly something.

Moreover, 'not giving out Spectre status easily' is hardly taking down the Spectres that already exist.

Ah, you made it sound like he was clamping down on the existing Spectres.

The crime and context of, say, attacking a military base versus blowing up a schoolyard are so different it shouldn't need reminding.

Not... really. Both are mass murder if not in a wartime context. If you stab someone to death in an alley in peacetime, does it make your crime less if he was a soldier?

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

So cerberus can kill civilians, attacking Alien ships and of course murdered childrens "In name of humanity advancement" but for the Spectres is no place in Human ruled Council universe?<_<

Why Asheer, it's like you didn't read when I explicitly said I favor limiting Cerberus as well.

And didn't you promise not to talk to me again? Dirty, dirty liar.

I wont be surprised if in renegade setup of ME 3 will turn out that entire C-Sec is pure human only organization with Bailey as C-Sec head... this whole "HUMANITY UBER ALLES" bull **** which plague ME since Walters took over made me really sick...

It wouldn't plague it if you didn't read **** Germany into everything.

Renegade tying with a pro-human stance and policies has been around since ME1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Enlightened self-interest is still enlightened. If you reject good things simply because you don't approve of the motivations, you'll take a lot of good out of this world.

The humans are good for the volus yes. They're also bad for asari, salarians and turians. It's unclear as to how their actions will affect other species but to look for effects on a local level, the numerous race riots on the Citadel are certainly something.

Alas, I have limited sympathy for species upset that they no longer have exclusive membership in an influence racket where they frequently and freely ignorred other species concerns. It's, what's that word...

Poetic Justice?

We've really yet to see anything to indicate the Volus, the Hanar, or anyone else is 'suffering,' and the weaker hold of the Alliance rather forces it to be more responsive to concerns if it wants to stay in.

Ah, you made it sound like he was clamping down on the existing Spectres.

I believe I said he was reining in the Spectres, which he is. Keeping a closer eye and not giving out as many is certainly a great first step.

Not... really. Both are mass murder if not in a wartime context. If you stab someone to death in an alley in peacetime, does it make your crime less if he was a soldier?

If you're in a conflict? Yes.

[Asheer_Khan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

So cerberus can kill civilians, attacking Alien ships and of course murdered childrens "In name of humanity advancement" but for the Spectres is no place in Human ruled Council universe?<_<

Why Asheer, it's like you didn't read when I explicitly said I favor limiting Cerberus as well.

And didn't you promise not to talk to me again? Dirty, dirty liar.

I wont be surprised if in renegade setup of ME 3 will turn out that entire C-Sec is pure human only organization with Bailey as C-Sec head... this whole "HUMANITY UBER ALLES" bull **** which plague ME since Walters took over made me really sick...

It wouldn't plague it if you didn't read **** Germany into everything.

Renegade tying with a pro-human stance and policies has been around since ME1.

Did you see any quote from you in my post what gives you assumption that i reply specyfic to you?

OR you now try to claim crown of only one legitime cerberus defender on this forum so whatever will be posted in regard of this terror group will be directed at you?<_<

And trust me... if i want reply direct to you or anyone else i will quote post to made my intentions clear, otherwise i reply in general purpose.

And by the way if udina and tim are representatives of this so called pro- human stance then sorry... i will gladly remain pro alien and do everything to brought of those both jerks to ultimative justice.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 15 novembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

So cerberus can kill civilians, attacking Alien ships and of course murdered childrens "In name of humanity advancement" but for the Spectres is no place in Human ruled Council universe?<_<

Why Asheer, it's like you didn't read when I explicitly said I favor limiting Cerberus as well.

And didn't you promise not to talk to me again? Dirty, dirty liar.

I wont be surprised if in renegade setup of ME 3 will turn out that entire C-Sec is pure human only organization with Bailey as C-Sec head... this whole "HUMANITY UBER ALLES" bull **** which plague ME since Walters took over made me really sick...

It wouldn't plague it if you didn't read **** Germany into everything.

Renegade tying with a pro-human stance and policies has been around since ME1.

Did you see any quote from you in my post what gives you assumption that i reply specyfic to you?

Why yes.

The fact you quoted me, replied along a thread of conversation I was starting and was the only one on a certain side, and that you are, in fact, talking to me now.

Dirty promise breaker. You know who else broke promises? Hitler. And the Soviets. You little NKVD/Gestappo poster you.

And by the way if udina and tim are representatives of this so called pro- human stance then sorry... i will gladly remain pro alien and do everything to brought of those both jerks to ultimative justice.

Yes, let's arrest Udina for the high crime of not believing Shepard!

Treason, that.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Alas, I have limited sympathy for species upset that they no longer have exclusive membership in an influence racket where they frequently and freely ignorred other species concerns.

So now the exclusive membership has gone from three to one. Brilliant upgrade.

Poetic Justice?

Poetic justice isn't. It's just a longer way to say "revenge."

We've really yet to see anything to indicate the Volus, the Hanar, or anyone else is 'suffering,' and the weaker hold of the Alliance rather forces it to be more responsive to concerns if it wants to stay in.

Perhaps it will be, perhaps it won't. Stepping down from actually running the Council would be a good start.

If you're in a conflict? Yes.

Ah, good to know that you consider some people's lives to be inherently worth less that others. A common disease of Renegades, but what did the quarians do to deserve to die?

[Aigyl]

Small note on Captain Bailey: On the beloved Mission Complete Screen for Thane's loyalty, TIM says something along the lines of wanting to bring Bailey into Cerberus to influence C-sec on the anti-human politics rising up in the Citadel.

Bailey seemed a pretty "do what it takes to get the job done" guy, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a C-sec with some new, strangely Cerberus-like policies in place if we run into them in ME3.

[Stick668]

Agreed on "the crew was picked to put a nice face on Cerberus and keep Shepard happy". (I can't help but chuckle at the inclusion of Kelly, who sometimes acted like a "romanceable-everything-please!" type of forumite.  )

Some further observations:

"Cerberus is pro-humanity."

This doesn't prevent them from routinely committing atrocities against individual humans. As evidenced time and time again. Of course, this is entirely in keeping with "the ends justify the means".

But even being "pro-humanity" falls apart completely during the coda, when Mr Illusive explicitly states his definition:

"Cerberus is humanity."

An attitude I found completely horrifying yet very true-to-life. The temptation for every idealist is to gradually start equating themselves and what they do with the ideal itself.

In the end, Cerberus is pro-Cerberus. And Mr Illusive is a scary-arsed bastard not because he's ruthless and power-mad, but because he - like all the best villains - actually believes he's the good guy. 

Modifié par Stick668, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[wookieeassassin]

I had Anderson as councilor, it sounds like I missed a lot of stuff about Udina as far as Citadel politics go...

Its clear that the main people in the Cerberus organization, the operatives and the Illusive Man aren't restricted by morals in many situations. Projects are shut down not for atrocities but more likely for not meeting deadlines and wasting the Illusive Man's time and money. There may be other people, like scientists and crewman working for Cerberus that don't really know about all that other stuff or just believe that they weren't officially sanctioned actions, that is, they bought into the recruitment propoganda. Cerberus is pro-human, but you don't have to be ruthless to be pro-human.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Besides the fact that it sort of does? Or at least, there are things that wouldn't be allowed to be researched in certain ways?


It's the 'at all costs' limiter. Just because you're committed to something at all costs does not mean you must pay all costs, or want to pay all costs, or seek to pay all costs.

Let's simply go with that there is no limit to the things Cerberus will do. Ok.

Why does that put a limit on the not-morally-horrific things Cerberus can do to advance human interests?

I was not putting a limit on what things Cerberus does (which I don't really get what it means), I just consider it one of their characteristics. I think that it would be good to provide some basic 'universally' acceptable information for Cerberus before we debate what's Cerberus material and what's not.

Simply because Cerberus is willing to do just about anything doesn't mean it needs, wants, or only looks for people willing to do anything. There's no need for that: no one (but TIM, really) needs to be willing to do everything, so everyone who isn't willing to do something can be productively doing something else.

Cerberus doesn't need people willing to do everything, so making that a benchmark for 'is this person Cerberus material' is absurd.

Also, c) They have been declared as criminals

And Shepard's a mutineer. People are willing to break laws for what they see as good reasons, but that doesn't mean they'd break all laws or have no standards.

1) Good point. But still, don't they have to put their ideology aside and work for Cerberus' cause ? So they can have moral limits, but not too many.

2)I think you are getting the wrong idea here. Even though it's true that I do disagree with Cerberus, I am not trying to accuse them, just try to establish some characteristics this organization has. If you do work for them, then you are immediately wanted by the Council and the Alliance. 

[wookieeassassin]

Stick66B, I agree with you. When I heard Illusive Man said Cerberus was humanity I was like "oh ****, I'm glad I told him to shove it, he is crazy." Throughout the game he did an ok job of convincing me that Cerberus wasn't all bad (telling me that he shut down Jack's project before the riot happened), which now that I think about it he probably shut it down for not having enough results, not because of the atrocities. Damn, he tricked me for a minute. As far as using for me for bait on Horizon and the Collector ship (derelict) I was like "what the hell Illusive Man?! You trying to kill us?!"

So I wonder what the implications will be of Shepard working with Cerberus in ME3? The Council, Anderson and Ashley/Kaidan were obviously upset about it but after you talked to them about it for the first time everyone sorta dismissed it. Does Shepard get a "one free treason" pass while everyone else who works for Cerberus is considered a criminal?

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:08 .