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[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Udina's willing to reign in the Spectres, stop the Batarian solar ray system, and create a system in which even minor species like the Volus (the Volus!) can be significant influences in the halls of power.

And did I mention that he's willing to reign in the Spectres?

How's he terrible by any measure except 'doesn't share Shepard's views on the Reapers.'

Before Inquisition, I agreed with you. But now all I can say is 'DAMNIT UDINA'.

He's a corrupt politician, I don't think that there's any question about that.

[-Skorpious-]

I'll give a cookie to anyone who can justify explain how Cerberus' decision to kidnap human children makes them the "good guys" in the eyes of the human race. Until anyone can successfully do so, then yes, Cerberus is nothing more than a self-centered organization looking to benefit themselves rather than others.

[wookieeassassin]

The Illusive Man pulled a slick one when he said he shut down the project Jack was in, when I really suspect he shut it down for deadline reasons, not ethical ones. I was actually starting to think that the experiments in ME1 and the bad stuff you hear about them in ME2 were things that people did independently of Cerberus, and then got shut down. At the end of the game though when he started getting mad about the base though I realized he was just being manipulative.

"So I wonder what the implications will be of Shepard working with Cerberus in ME3? The Council, Anderson and Ashley/Kaidan were obviously upset about it but after you talked to them about it for the first time everyone sorta dismissed it. Does Shepard get a "one free treason" pass while everyone else who works for Cerberus is considered a criminal?"

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Alas, I have limited sympathy for species upset that they no longer have exclusive membership in an influence racket where they frequently and freely ignorred other species concerns.

So now the exclusive membership has gone from three to one. Brilliant upgrade.

Hardly much of a loss for the rest of the galaxy, or proof of great harm.

Poetic Justice?

Poetic justice isn't. It's just a longer way to say "revenge."

Revenge is retaliation for a particular act. That isn't why I don't exactly jump to save the Council.

The Council made the galaxy, and now has to sleep in the bed they made for everyone else. When, if, the human Council falls, it makes a good motivator to do better for the galaxy.

Ah, good to know that you consider some people's lives to be inherently worth less that others. A common disease of Renegades, but what did the quarians do to deserve to die?

Some people's lives are worth more than others, in so much that people don't affect eachother equally. The downside for individuality is a lack of uniformity of skills and characters.

A criminal is less worthy of being saved than an innocent. A corrupt criminal is nowhere near the level of a serial killer. Being able to save five today at the cost of a hundred elsewhere is rarely a even bargain.

Absolute equality in all respects hasn't been practiced since, well, ever.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

1) Good point. But still, don't they have to put their ideology aside and work for Cerberus' cause ? So they can have moral limits, but not too many.

You can't have too many moral limits for any life decision and course of action. If you join the military, for example, you're accepting you can well be called to kill people you have no personal issue with.

2)I think you are getting the wrong idea here. Even though it's true that I do disagree with Cerberus, I am not trying to accuse them, just try to establish some characteristics this organization has. If you do work for them, then you are immediately wanted by the Council and the Alliance. 

'Criminal', though, is rather broad, and hardly a disqualifier.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Udina's willing to reign in the Spectres, stop the Batarian solar ray system, and create a system in which even minor species like the Volus (the Volus!) can be significant influences in the halls of power.

And did I mention that he's willing to reign in the Spectres?

How's he terrible by any measure except 'doesn't share Shepard's views on the Reapers.'

Before Inquisition, I agreed with you. But now all I can say is 'DAMNIT UDINA'.

He's a corrupt politician, I don't think that there's any question about that.

Corrupt about what in what sense or matter?

Inquisition hints at ulterior motives, but not fabrication or corruption.

[Phaedon]

You can't have too many moral limits for any life decision and course of action. If you join the military, for example, you're accepting you can well be called to kill people you have no personal issue with.

It's not the same thing. The experiments/operations conducted by Cerberus are much more controversial.

'Criminal', though, is rather broad, and hardly a disqualifier.

Disqualifier as to what ?

Corrupt about what in what sense or matter?



Inquisition hints at ulterior motives, but not fabrication or corruption.

OK, it's true that I was a bit extreme when I said 'there's no question about it', but the hint was enough to change my views on him.

[Xilizhra]

Hardly much of a loss for the rest of the galaxy, or proof of great harm.

Since the Council races are most of the rest of the galaxy... yes, yes, it really is quite a net loss.

The Council made the galaxy, and now has to sleep in the bed they made for everyone else. When, if, the human Council falls, it makes a good motivator to do better for the galaxy.

This is, quite frankly, a ridiculous motivation. The asari, salarian and turian people don't deserve to suffer for what their ages-old political leaders did.

Some people's lives are worth more than others, in so much that people don't affect eachother equally. The downside for individuality is a lack of uniformity of skills and characters.



A criminal is less worthy of being saved than an innocent. A corrupt criminal is nowhere near the level of a serial killer. Being able to save five today at the cost of a hundred elsewhere is rarely a even bargain.



Absolute equality in all respects hasn't been practiced since, well, ever.

Firstly, none of that had to do with my question about why the quarians deserved to be attacked. Second, it may come down to a difference of morals; I believe that the only proper time to harm someone is if they're directly threatening you or others.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

You can't have too many moral limits for any life decision and course of action. If you join the military, for example, you're accepting you can well be called to kill people you have no personal issue with.

It's not the same thing. The experiments/operations conducted by Cerberus are much more controversial.

I disagree. I know of some of the things the US has done, in current wars and in the past. I have strong suspicions about other activities. I am by no measure an optimist about the moral character of governments in general... and I still volunteered, for a variety of reasons.

Not everyone knows about Cerberus's actions. Not everyone even knows most of them. There are lots of people here, players with outside knowledge, who have misunderstandings about things Cerberus was involved in. (And we still lack a lot more lacking of information of things they were involved in as well.)

It's not that different from joining the intelligence community. We know the CIA spies. We know it looks for people to kill, and does it. We know it's involved in a lot of shady things. But we don't know most of what they do. But plenty of people think, overall, it's still worth it to keep the spooks around. But plenty of good people still join, as well as bad.

Disqualifier as to what ?

'Being a mostly alright person', in my mind.

Corrupt about what in what sense or matter?

Inquisition hints at ulterior motives, but not fabrication or corruption.

OK, it's true that I was a bit extreme when I said 'there's no question about it', but the hint was enough to change my views on him.

The hint (shadowing the eyes) is so, well, unsubstantiated that I'd need an actual reason for it rather than to just accept it fully for no other reason than aesthetics.

Then again, I think comics have taken visual exageration to an art.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]Hardly much of a loss for the rest of the galaxy, or proof of great harm.[/quote]
Since the Council races are most of the rest of the galaxy... yes, yes, it really is quite a net loss.[/quote]All explored space is less than 3% of the galaxy, and life is known to be plentiful in the ME universe. Of that 3%, Asari, Salarians, and Turians aren't even a majority. Just the richest and most powerful.


[quote]
This is, quite frankly, a ridiculous motivation. The asari, salarian and turian people don't deserve to suffer for what their ages-old political leaders did.[/quote]How has the common Asari, Salarian, or Turian suffered in the first place? A loss of xeno-national prestige and privilage aren't oppression.

[quote]Some people's lives are worth more than others, in so much that people don't affect eachother equally. The downside for individuality is a lack of uniformity of skills and characters.

A criminal is less worthy of being saved than an innocent. A corrupt criminal is nowhere near the level of a serial killer. Being able to save five today at the cost of a hundred elsewhere is rarely a even bargain.

Absolute equality in all respects hasn't been practiced since, well, ever.[/quote]
Firstly, none of that had to do with my question about why the quarians deserved to be attacked. Second, it may come down to a difference of morals; I believe that the only proper time to harm someone is if they're directly threatening you or others.[/quote]

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I disagree. I know of some of the things the US has done, in current wars and in the past. I have strong suspicions about other activities. I am by no measure an optimist about the moral character of governments in general... and I still volunteered, for a variety of reasons.

Not everyone knows about Cerberus's actions. Not everyone even knows most of them. There are lots of people here, players with outside knowledge, who have misunderstandings about things Cerberus was involved in. (And we still lack a lot more lacking of information of things they were involved in as well.)

It's not that different from joining the intelligence community. We know the CIA spies. We know it looks for people to kill, and does it. We know it's involved in a lot of shady things. But we don't know most of what they do. But plenty of people think, overall, it's still worth it to keep the spooks around. But plenty of good people still join, as well as bad.

I am not an American, and I disagree with the ways USA handles some stuff, but let's please not discuss sociopolitical stuff here. Anyway, it's one thing to join the main body of a military, and another to join an intelligence service. True, you have to follow orders, but your operations aren't as bloody and immoral.

'Being a mostly alright person', in my mind.

T'was not my point. Once you join Cerberus, you have to live with the risk of having your house raided and your relatives arrested. 

The hint (shadowing the eyes) is so, well, unsubstantiated that I'd need an actual reason for it rather than to just accept it fully for no other reason than aesthetics.

Then again, I think comics have taken visual exageration to an art.

That's not the hint I was talking about. Bailey makes it clear that he suspects that something is wrong. It's possible that Udina set everything up, in order to replace Pallin with a human Executor.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
I disagree. I know of some of the things the US has done, in current wars and in the past. I have strong suspicions about other activities. I am by no measure an optimist about the moral character of governments in general... and I still volunteered, for a variety of reasons.

Not everyone knows about Cerberus's actions. Not everyone even knows most of them. There are lots of people here, players with outside knowledge, who have misunderstandings about things Cerberus was involved in. (And we still lack a lot more lacking of information of things they were involved in as well.)

It's not that different from joining the intelligence community. We know the CIA spies. We know it looks for people to kill, and does it. We know it's involved in a lot of shady things. But we don't know most of what they do. But plenty of people think, overall, it's still worth it to keep the spooks around. But plenty of good people still join, as well as bad.[/quote]
I am not an American, and I disagree with the ways USA handles some stuff, but let's please not discuss sociopolitical stuff here. Anyway, it's one thing to join the main body of a military, and another to join an intelligence service. True, you have to follow orders, but your operations aren't as bloody and immoral.[/quote]That depends strictly on your morality and personal beliefs. I've been called a sociopath.

[quote]


[quote]'Being a mostly alright person', in my mind.[/quote]T'was not my point. Once you join Cerberus, you have to live with the risk of having your house raided and your relatives arrested. [/quote]Some people are willing to risk that.

In fact, I think many members of this board would be willing to risk resisting a force which would arrest family. (Up to, at least, the point it actually occurs.)

[quote]
The hint (shadowing the eyes) is so, well, unsubstantiated that I'd need an actual reason for it rather than to just accept it fully for no other reason than aesthetics.

[quote]
That's not the hint I was talking about. Bailey makes it clear that he suspects that something is wrong. It's possible that Udina set everything up, in order to replace Pallin with a human Executor.

[/quote]Or, Udina found dirt, and then exploited it, and pushed at the edges of something that already existed.

[Asheer_Khan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

So cerberus can kill civilians, attacking Alien ships and of course murdered childrens "In name of humanity advancement" but for the Spectres is no place in Human ruled Council universe?<_<

Why Asheer, it's like you didn't read when I explicitly said I favor limiting Cerberus as well.

And didn't you promise not to talk to me again? Dirty, dirty liar.

I wont be surprised if in renegade setup of ME 3 will turn out that entire C-Sec is pure human only organization with Bailey as C-Sec head... this whole "HUMANITY UBER ALLES" bull **** which plague ME since Walters took over made me really sick...

It wouldn't plague it if you didn't read **** Germany into everything.

Renegade tying with a pro-human stance and policies has been around since ME1.

Did you see any quote from you in my post what gives you assumption that i reply specyfic to you?

Why yes.

The fact you quoted me, replied along a thread of conversation I was starting and was the only one on a certain side, and that you are, in fact, talking to me now.

Dirty promise breaker. You know who else broke promises? Hitler. And the Soviets. You little NKVD/Gestappo poster you.

And by the way if udina and tim are representatives of this so called pro- human stance then sorry... i will gladly remain pro alien and do everything to brought of those both jerks to ultimative justice.

Yes, let's arrest Udina for the high crime of not believing Shepard!

Treason, that.

I hope Mr Priestly will dealt properly with you (yes i reported this post because in off is in off.).

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That depends strictly on your morality and personal beliefs. I've been called a sociopath.

What's the chance to have to kill innocents as a soldier compared to a Cerberus officer ?

Some people are willing to risk that.

In fact, I think many members of this board would be willing to risk resisting a force which would arrest family. (Up to, at least, the point it actually occurs.)

Yup, and that's why it's a characteristic of Cerberus officers. They either want to risk that to support their cause, or they are undercover teenagers throwing molotov cocktails against cops.

Or, Udina found dirt, and then exploited it, and pushed at the edges of something that already existed.

Dirty or not, Pallin isn't the only one who is dirty in Inquisition.

[Dean_the_Young]

What's the chance to have to kill innocents as a soldier compared to a Cerberus officer ?

Much higher, at this time. My country is involved in two open wars and many incidents around the world. Cerberus does its best to remain hidden, and part of remaining hidden is not giving too much cause for notice. Human experimentation is hardly the bread and butter of Cerberus.

Yup, and that's why it's a characteristic of Cerberus officers. They either want to risk that to support their cause, or they are undercover teenagers throwing molotov cocktails against cops.

What, that they're young and immature and don't mean it?

How many young Cerberus people have we met? How many fit that argument, period?

Dirty or not, Pallin isn't the only one who is dirty in Inquisition.

Which comes agains to what dirty deed Udina made up or did.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Xilizhra]

All explored space is less than 3% of the galaxy, and life is known to be plentiful in the ME universe. Of that 3%, Asari, Salarians, and Turians aren't even a majority. Just the richest and most powerful.

3% is a heck of a lot of life still, and a net loss is a net loss.

How has the common Asari, Salarian, or Turian suffered in the first place? A loss of xeno-national prestige and privilage aren't oppression.

Not technically, but those three were lowered at the same time as humans gained as much prestige/privilege as the last three combined. Unfortunately, we don't know enough about what's truly going on; things like the race riots haven't been looked into heavily enough.



Also, you still didn't answer my question about why the quarians deserved to die.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

All explored space is less than 3% of the galaxy, and life is known to be plentiful in the ME universe. Of that 3%, Asari, Salarians, and Turians aren't even a majority. Just the richest and most powerful.

3% is a heck of a lot of life still, and a net loss is a net loss.

All things considered, 3% is only a lot if you lose all sense of proportion, because 97% is so much more.

And, as we already noted, the old Council races aren't even 3%.

Not technically, but those three were lowered at the same time as humans gained as much prestige/privilege as the last three combined. Unfortunately, we don't know enough about what's truly going on;

'Not technically' is as good an admission as 'no.' If you want to call it oppression, it needs to be oppression by their standards. No sign has been given that their status is any less than what they happily kept everyone else under for thousands of years.

things like the race riots haven't been looked into heavily enough.

Indeed. I wonder how many of them are flanned by quiet Turian/Salarian instigators supported by their governments.

Not that riots have ever needed actual oppression to start.

Also, you still didn't answer my question about why the quarians deserved to die.

I apologize.

Do I think they deserved to die? No. Were they on a legitimate target? Pretty much. The captain of that ship, if he survived, should be investigated for putting his crew at such risk.

Was Cerberus justified in attacking? That's a separate question depending on your view of its legitimacy, and if it secretly remains sanctioned by the Alliance.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Much higher, at this time. My country is involved in two open wars and many incidents around the world. Cerberus does its best to remain hidden, and part of remaining hidden is not giving too much cause for notice. Human experimentation is hardly the bread and butter of Cerberus.[/quote]
Not in 2185. 

[quote]What, that they're young and immature and don't mean it?How many young Cerberus people have we met? How many fit that argument, period?[/quote]

It was a joke.  If hardcore organizations like Cerberus are considered rebellious, I quit.

[/quote][quote]Which comes agains to what dirty deed Udina made up or did.[/quote]
Arranging Bailey to kill Pallin so that he could assign a human Executor ?

[Xilizhra]

All things considered, 3% is only a lot if you lose all sense of proportion, because 97% is so much more.

Which is moot, because the other 97% doesn't belong to the galactic community, which is the only thing we're talking about here.

'Not technically' is as good an admission as 'no.' If you want to call it oppression, it needs to be oppression by their standards. No sign has been given that their status is any less than what they happily kept everyone else under for thousands of years.

Well, there is the draconian Citadel government. We don't really know everything that it's up to.



Also, stopping here because my computer's about to bomb.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Much higher, at this time. My country is involved in two open wars and many incidents around the world. Cerberus does its best to remain hidden, and part of remaining hidden is not giving too much cause for notice. Human experimentation is hardly the bread and butter of Cerberus.

Not in 2185. 

I apologize: I thought we were still going on the other analogy.

Come 2185, all it would take is a galactic war to increase the risk again. Look at the recent Turian war in Cerberus Daily News.

Arranging Bailey to kill Pallin so that he could assign a human Executor ?

If Pallin did deserve to be removed, is that a wicked thing?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

All things considered, 3% is only a lot if you lose all sense of proportion, because 97% is so much more.

Which is moot, because the other 97% doesn't belong to the galactic community, which is the only thing we're talking about here.

Then stop acting like 3% of the galaxy is equivalent to the galaxy, when the Council Races didn't even make up that much.

'Not technically' is as good an admission as 'no.' If you want to call it oppression, it needs to be oppression by their standards. No sign has been given that their status is any less than what they happily kept everyone else under for thousands of years.

Well, there is the draconian Citadel government. We don't really know everything that it's up to.

How is it draconian, considering that the Paragon's Citadel Council implements the same sort of security upgrades?

Also, stopping here because my computer's about to bomb

Later.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I hope Mr Priestly will dealt properly with you (yes i reported this post because in off is in off.).

I believe the proper response for blatant absurdity is to laugh, roll eyes and give a long suffering sigh at indignant complaint, and weigh whether **** this small is really worth the paycheck or the time. And possibly weigh whether it's appropriate to step in and give stern word to bother sides to knock that **** off and don't waste time with such petty nonsense.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 novembre 2010 - 08:02 .

[Xilizhra]

Then stop acting like 3% of the galaxy is equivalent to the galaxy, when the Council Races didn't even make up that much.

I'm not. I'm saying that they make up a large amount of the current galactic community.

How is it draconian, considering that the Paragon's Citadel Council implements the same sort of security upgrades?

I didn't say that the Paragon one was less draconian, as well as being equally useless. The point of this isn't to say that the current Council was doing a good job; it's to dispute that the human coup-led Council is doing a better one.

Do I think they deserved to die? No. Were they on a legitimate target? Pretty much. The captain of that ship, if he survived, should be investigated for putting his crew at such risk.

Maybe. That still makes it roughly the equivalent of a mob hit; nothing Cerberus does, by definition, can be legitimate because they're an illegal organization.

If Pallin did deserve to be removed, is that a wicked thing?

Via assassination? Yes.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then stop acting like 3% of the galaxy is equivalent to the galaxy, when the Council Races didn't even make up that much.

I'm not. I'm saying that they make up a large amount of the current galactic community.

First it was a majority.

I didn't say that the Paragon one was less draconian, as well as being equally useless. The point of this isn't to say that the current Council was doing a good job; it's to dispute that the human coup-led Council is doing a better one.

I don't recall who said that, as opposed to disputing that Udina was doing a terrible job.

Maybe. That still makes it roughly the equivalent of a mob hit; nothing Cerberus does, by definition, can be legitimate because they're an illegal organization.

This comes down to a lingering question of ties to the Alliance (and thus validity of Black Ops groups), and the nature of what makes an organization legitimate in the first place (a long, drawn out argument of many different debates that don't need to be expanded here.)

 

Via assassination? Yes.

If he had accepted arrest, he wouldn't have been killed.

[Xilizhra]

First it was a majority.

Well, it's a majority from what we see in the game. Volus are uncommon, elcor are rare, hanar even moreso.

I don't recall who said that, as opposed to disputing that Udina was doing a terrible job.

Well, you.

This comes down to a lingering question of ties to the Alliance (and thus validity of Black Ops groups), and the nature of what makes an organization legitimate in the first place (a long, drawn out argument of many different debates that don't need to be expanded here.)

It's most definitely not legal under Council law; if the Alliance is actively using Cerberus, it should be in line for quite a few reprisals.