81 réponses à ce sujet

[xate101]

So I'm mid way through my SOZ playthrough and I feel like finishing the OC again with maybe a cleric this time because I've never played a cleric as a PC in any DnD games before. Looking at the weapons available, they all look boring, so I'm wondering if katanas would be a good idea for this cleric and maybe any other classes.

If not, I might look at scythes or any other weapons not used very commonly.

Any thoughts?

[I_Raps]

Katanas are excellent.   You still won't get anywhere with Kana, though.

Modifié par I_Raps, 15 novembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Clyordes]

Personally, I just go with whatever weapon looks good for the character I'm making - when you get to magic weapons, the amount of bonuses you can get makes the actual type of weapon a bit mute. If you're more of a power gamer, the relatively high damage & 2 handed bonus of the katana is good if you use it 2 handed, and you can boost up your Parry skill to negate your lack of a shield. Keep to relatively light armour & good DEX & you could have a cracking Sohei type PC http://en.wikipedia....geons_&_Dragons)#Other_sourcebooks



Just out of interest, any reason why you want to re-do the OC when there are so many great community created modules out there?

[Arkalezth]

One katana is ok. Two katanas are bad.

If you intend to craft in the OC, you can go with any weapon.

[xate101]

Right, then I shall stick with a katana then. Loved using them in BG2.

I was actually thinking of dual wielding katana build, like one of the characters in the comic Order of the Stick(might even create a party of them in SOZ) or maybe something similar to the Kensai/Mage build in BG2, but I'll try something different.

Clyordes wrote...

Personally, I just go with whatever weapon looks good for the character I'm making - when you get to magic weapons, the amount of bonuses you can get makes the actual type of weapon a bit mute. If you're more of a power gamer, the relatively high damage & 2 handed bonus of the katana is good if you use it 2 handed, and you can boost up your Parry skill to negate your lack of a shield. Keep to relatively light armour & good DEX & you could have a cracking Sohei type PC http://en.wikipedia....geons_&_Dragons)#Other_sourcebooks

Just out of interest, any reason why you want to re-do the OC when there are so many great community created modules out there?

Thanks for the link. I might have some future character ideas from that.

As for the OC, I intend to go through it again as I only completed it once. I've tried a couple of community modules like H & C which was fantastic, DarkWaters which didn't complete it as I was playing MotB at the same time and a couple of mini game modules like Pirate Cards.

[Arkalezth]

Well, for the OC, a Cleric with two katanas can work, if you really want it. You just need high STR, enough DEX to get the dual-wielding feats, as WIS to cast spells. You can use items for the latter, though.

Or you can use a katana and a small weapon in the off-hand.

[Haplose]

A katana is a fine weapon. Not worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat investment for me though.
Plus it looks silly with a shield.

Modifié par Haplose, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[dunniteowl]

A katana with a shield? Are you nuts? No self respecting kendo master would be caught dead using a shield with a katana. That's for sissies.

I like using the wakizashi for making sushi out of Kuo-Toa and Sahuagin. Yum!

dno

[xate101]

Never! I never even thought of the possibility of using a katana with a shield. That would be very wrong. I'm keeping it as a 2 hander. Who needs shields when you have katanas!

[dunniteowl]

No worries, xate101. I was bashing on Haplose there for even implying such a thing were, in fact, possible and acceptable. Sheesh. Katana and shield. Turn in your kendo master certificate Haplose.

dunniteowl

[painofdungeoneternal]

They had shields, but it was prior to katanas. From what i am reading the bracer ( kote ) acted as a shield, have some kid describing starting with a shield and then reducing it to just a bar set up like a bracer. Just a different way of fighting.

Frankly if i was facing a samurai with just a katana staring at me, and a samurai who thinks he's not going to kill me in one stroke, i'd gladly go for the guy with the shield. Need to watch some black and white samurai movies like seven samurai. Hopefuly you have netflix.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[avado]

There is no issue with katana and shield. If nwn2 had a better combat system (non-turned based) then maybe I could see it. As it stands, the attacker WILL get a roll against you and AC is necessary. With katana you need high str AND dex to make up for AC loss (str to use swords as they are not finnessible). In OC you have <20 levels. You can make the character, but it will not be a power house (as the samuri were). Infact, I dont know if you could even make a 30 lvl power house with this idea (dual katana), and have a nice AC too.

[dunniteowl]

Not talking game mechanics on that one, avado, it's the kendo concept of being a sword master with a katana. You don't use a shield. Period. And I'm just busting on Haplose. You guys don't have to take it so seriously. By all means, go ahead and use a shield and a katana.



Sissies.

dno

[The Fred]

The katana is pretty cool, but as a Cleric you can't gain the benefits of the War domain for it, since no deities actually have katana as a favoured weapon.

[Haplose]

dunniteowl wrote...
Turn in your kendo master certificate Haplose.
dunniteowl

No way, I'm sticking to it!
J/K, wish I had one of those.

Anyway, I was pointing this out as a disadvantage of this weapon type - that using it with a shield looks very silly (and, as you wrote, wrong as well). And using a shield is often critically important for your AC. Well, you can live without it in the official content, I guess.

[dunniteowl]

Actually I tend to play paladins and use greatsword, meaning no shield. That way I don't change my AC when using the longbows I love so much at distance (which gets closed quickly in game.) Sure it's a bit of trouble, but that's what armor's for and magical buffing items, too.

In this case, I think the katana concept will have to be played out of a desire to play something like a samurai. Otherwise the katana really isn't the best weapon to use in the game for a sword user of any sort, really. It looks great, but overall, the mechanics of the game really don't capture the devastating potential of the katana in the hands of, say, a Weapons Master specializing in the katana. The crit range should be close to double that of any normal bonus you'd get with a non exotic weapons sword.

Of course, that's just my opinion based on the actual lethality of the katana in the hands of a kendo master. They are probably one of the single deadliest bladed weapons ever to have been created in terms of their sharpness, strength and flexibility. For overall sheer slashing power there's the Scottish Claighmorgh (the Original Two Handed Sword ) and for out and out strength of slamming, it's hard to beat a broadsword. Each weapon in reality has its focal point of use and when used in the manner intended can be be quite devastating. However, on the whole, I think the katana really wins hands down in the overall best in class of bladed weapons.

Meanwhile, I hope the advice the OP has recieved on the whole has been helpful.

dno

[I_Raps]

Slashing weapons did nothing against plate armor.  Europeans abandoned them.  Katanas vs. knights never actually happened*;  the game is a game.  A fantasy game at that.  There are a lot of compromises with reality.  Allowing katanas - or any slashing weapons - to have any effect against plate armor is one.  Like ninjas - sorry, Shadowdancers - who can go invisible before your very eyes.

Here's a fun little video.  Check out especially the 4:25 mark.

Swords vs. Armor

* though as they came into contact with Europeans, even the samurai were catching on.



But then guns made the whole discussion moot.

Modifié par I_Raps, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[xate101]

Right, thanks for the tips everyone. I should be making this katana wielding character soon enough.

[The Fred]

Sieben Elfriend wrote...
Remember the scene from Shogun (the movie)? The American with the cavalry saber is about to duel the samurai when  the Japanese woman tries to tell him what school the samurai studied in, what techniques they prefer, etc.

Shhh, don't tell me, I haven't seen that far (yet). Also *were* there any Americans in Shogun? (I mean American characters; there may well have been American actors).

I_Raps wrote...
Slashing weapons did nothing against plate armor.  Europeans abandoned them.

I remember reading a quote from Ancient Rome: "The Romans laugh on those who slash with their swords" or words to that effect. The reason being that a slash often causes injuries, but they tend to be superficial - your chances of damaging a vital organ are much better with a stab or thrust. However, the Samurai had perfected the art of severing the head from the shoulders ("One cut, one kill") which even plate mail wouldn't protect you from without neck guards (though a lot of suits of armour did have those I believe).

Modifié par The Fred, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[avado]

dunniteowl wrote...

Not talking game mechanics on that one, avado, it's the kendo concept of being a sword master with a katana. You don't use a shield. Period. And I'm just busting on Haplose. You guys don't have to take it so seriously. By all means, go ahead and use a shield and a katana.

Sissies.
dno

LOL I know.  Its just that sometimes, people take things LITERALLY!  While the kendo or iai-jutsu concept is nice, implementing it in nwn2 (or nwn for that matter) is a loosing battle, imo.  YEARS ago, I attempted to design a few "martial arts"-ish characters for nwn, one that used a staff and one that sort of mimiced the way an Tai Chi master grows with QI power over time (and the way monk does it is WRONG, imo).  I did both and they are up somewhere in the ol' ECB, but they were never powerful beings.

The issue with Katana is, it SHOULD be dex based.  A strength based samuri, NOT!  Katana are actually weighted to be very easy to handle with one hand or 2.  They allow you to be very flexible (having trained off and on with a wooden bokken in my youtt).  Why they use strength is beyond me.  It seriously gimps what could have been an AMAZING weapon.  Alas, as it is, it is no different than a longsword or scrimmy, cept with d10 iirc.  Yeah, the more I think on it, the katana is a weapon that does alot of the work for you, which makes strength unnecessary. 

Oh well.  It appears that the kendo/iai-jutsu idea is possible, just wont be "epic" without a change in the mechanics.  And really, that's all I meant!  Thanks for understanding DNO!

[painofdungeoneternal]

The Katana also was fully capable of stabbing an opponent, and although it might take some damage, those slashes were capable of going thru chain mail. This ignores the fact that samurai were very effective bowman as well.

It's a question of style, on one hand you had a tradition of brute force and muscle, on the other you had people learning how to maximize movement and power thru efficiency. It is a difference between raw power and finesse. They both were very effective, and no way to know the difference, comparing some idiot in full plate, sword and shield to some idiot with a katana and full samurai armor is just silly.

The argument that slashing weapons don't work on western knights ignores the history of christendom, which dealt with Scimitars which were not inferior to western weaponry. The Scimitar also had better metals with damascus steel, which i imagine is similar to how more modern Katanas were forged, but it also was more of a cavalry slashing weapon, while the katana was capable of both thrusting and slashing.

This is like comparing a medieval pugilist and brawler to a ancient martial artist - we assume the martial artist is better but then we just would never know, and it probably depends on who is facing who, more than which tradition they come from. The big advantage with martial arts is when you have two people with very minimal training, i've always seen it more as a efficient way of teaching people how to fight prior to ever actually getting into combat. Those with some good training i'd say are pretty equal in prowess which i think we should assume.

The one advantage the Samurai has though, is they come from a long tradition of focusing more on tactics than on gear. They believed a battle is won prior to crossing swords, at least after Miyamoto Musashi. I am pretty sure that knight in full plate would be pretty over confident especially if the samurai decided to just face him almost naked with just a Katana, perhaps with a spare sword as well. Especially if the knight sees him constantly before that in full armor, soas to make him see it as an insult. I don't see that knight really capable of hurting him since the samurai would be less encumbered and able to back pedal and block or deflect any blows, and in an extended fight the knight would eventually lose his advantage.

Of course the tactics would vary based on the opponent, situation, and time period, but the samurai was much more focused on proving themselves in duels. And Knights ( as we envision them ) only existed for a short span of time with constant changes in technology making the weapons and armors change over the centuries to adapt. The samurai tradition almost lasted into modern times and thus was able to perfect itself a lot more.

This makes it very hard to compare, it's really not fair to compare a knight of the 1300's to a samurai of the 1800's which had a good 500 extra years of perfecting a single weapon and fighting style, instead of becoming obsolete as new weapons came on the scene. Really this is the Samurai's biggest advantage.

There is a show on the military channel, which has 2 armies/fighters face off with each other using vastly different weapons and tactics and compares how they do. I'd be interested in their conclusions and testing.

As for it in NWN2, it just sucks how it's implemented. I would do it wisdom or dexterity based myself. I would also make it class specific, so the Ninja and Samurai classes tend to do better at it. In game there is no reason to take the Katana, better choices all around, and it's main purpose is really roleplay value. As such it really needs support in the way of classes which base their abilities on it to come into it's own without causing all of the paladins and fighters to suddenly start carrying nothing but katanas.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 22 novembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[BigfootNZ]

Sieben Elfriend wrote...

Remember the scene from Shogun (the movie)? The American with the cavalry saber is about to duel the samurai when  the Japanese woman tries to tell him what school the samurai studied in, what techniques they prefer, etc. He shrugs and waves her away, saying "A sword is a sword". Any sword is deadly in the hands of a master and the Japanese had no corner on the market. The katana is a good weapon, but lacks the weight and hitting power of a European two-handed sword and even it's chisel point won't penetrate plate armor. It worked well against the leather, wood and bone armor of the Japanese feudal period, but samurai movies (and S.M. Stirling novels) notwithstanding, I don't fancy it's chances againt well-made chainmail. If I had to fight with one in a fantasy game, I'd definitely want a shield.

As this guy on Youtube says... 'Katana Plonkers'... if you look at reality, the Katana was in fact quite an inferior weapon to most Western bladed equivilants. The weapons mythology has given it a rep it doesnt actually deserve. Yes, take a norseman dressed in chainmail, a helm and a good iron rimmed shield and Axe would trump a Samurai, I hate the way the western fighters are always made out to be slow barbaric cumbersome combatants when in reality it was the complete opposite, they were quick fast, agile and extremely skilled. 

His other vids are real eye openers very knowledgable and makes some very good points you often dont think about when thinking of western medieval weapons and armor...

Sieben Elfriend wrote...
Want to defeat plate armor? Stand off a couple of hundred yards and hit it with your logbow.

Where can i find this Logbow?... sounds absolutely leathal. Personally Id go with a good suit of chain against a bow, most arrows cant pentrate it and the links absorb a large ammount of the impact.

Ultimatly the one weapon that was in my mind the king of all melee weapons is the War Hammer, you name it, it could get around it, plate, chain etc... just a pitty D&D never introduced a system where armor types gave you penalties and bonuses to damage resistance, although there was a version in the 1st edition Unearthed Arcana.

I dont think ive ever used a Katana in NWN1 or 2... just doesnt suit the atmosphere.

[I_Raps]

BigfootNZ wrote...

Sieben Elfriend wrote...
Want to defeat plate armor? Stand off a couple of hundred yards and hit it with your logbow.

Where can i find this Logbow?... sounds absolutely leathal.

I think the Scots developed it  - a natural progression from tossing cabers. 

p.s.  Look at your own sentence.  Were you trying for "lethal? ... or maybe "leafthal? ;)"  I'm amazed at how often that happens.  Freud is vindicated thousands of times every day on Internet.

Sieben Elfriend wrote...
To get vaguely back on topic, it would be nice if the in-game katana was eligible for the Weapon Finesse feat, since they weighed less than three pounds, and perhaps given a greater critical hit range due to their legendary sharpness. Then we could wish for a wakizashi for the off hand. As it stands, the katana and bastard sword are identical, which makes no sense.

They're just game statistics dressed up in historical names.  Which also explains why no Finesse for the Katana - game balance.  Players' desire for uberness bumps against the developers' need to keep the playing field level.

Modifié par I_Raps, 22 novembre 2010 - 11:52 .