81 réponses à ce sujet

[painofdungeoneternal]

Found Deadliest Warrior

http://www.spike.com...t-warrior/37916



That episode has has samurai vs spartan ( and a previous episode had samurai vs viking )



Which does some pretty detailed comparisons. Worth watching.

[dunniteowl]

I'm almost this close |-----------| to being sorry I made my first smart aleck comment. You guys are a great source of informational profusion and I salute you.

I think the sword is a sword comment comes from an older movie about Admiral Perry forcibly entering Tokyo harbor and making the Japanese recognize outside powers. I'm not sure of the character actor's name, but in it he was challenged by a kendo master and a geisha was informing him of how deadly the guy was and he said pretty much that a "sword is a sword."

However, during the fairly quick match, it became very clear to the American saber fighter that this contest wasn't going well and so he made a quick slashing move and chopped off the guy's arm at the elbow and won the fight that way. That's IIRTSC (That Scene.)

Each weapon and each way of fighting in it's own era and context can be seen as the penultimate in martial arts prowess in their times. All you have to do is watch an SCA event and realize that even us not so battle hardened soft modernists can move pretty damn quick and with training and skill, combined with a bit of ruthless bravado, amazing feats of martial prowess can occur.

And for the record, I know that it's not that hard to wield a small round shield with a handaxe or short spear and it's hard to counter with anything heavier than a short sword or like equipment. Don't mess with the Saxons, baby!

dno

[MasterChanger]

Unfortunately, D&D's attacks-per-round system doesn't take dexterity and weapon weight into account for attack speed*--which many other systems do. D&D also doesn't really care about weapon reach (a greatsword vs. a shortsword) and in NWN this hardly matters at all.

The end result is that the choices of "ideal" weapons narrow, as do the choices for builds for using those weapons. A strength-based warrior only needs as much dexterity as their armor allows, and it really won't affect their attacks. A falchion wielder doesn't have to worry about being able to whip that blade around when in close quarters, and a short-sword wielder doesn't have to worry about getting inside their opponent's reach.

To whatever extent these choices can be made more meaningful through custom content, I support those efforts. I've been working on trying to figure out how to make reach matter more through having a character with a longer weapon jump backwards, but so far the effect on combat has been negligible.

* Except for through two-weapon fighting.

[I_Raps]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Found Deadliest Warrior
http://www.spike.com...t-warrior/37916

That episode has has samurai vs spartan ( and a previous episode had samurai vs viking )

Which does some pretty detailed comparisons. Worth watching.

SPARTAAAA!!!!!!


Thanks for the link.  Very entertaining.

[avado]

BigfootNZ wrote...
As this guy on Youtube says... 'Katana Plonkers'... if you look at reality, the Katana was in fact quite an inferior weapon to most Western bladed equivilants. The weapons mythology has given it a rep it doesnt actually deserve. Yes, take a norseman dressed in chainmail, a helm and a good iron rimmed shield and Axe would trump a Samurai, I hate the way the western fighters are always made out to be slow barbaric cumbersome combatants when in reality it was the complete opposite, they were quick fast, agile and extremely skilled. 

Here's the problem I have with this.   I didnt watch it because I saw that the katana he is holding isnt a "real" one.  It is a decoration you can buy in any north american mall asian store.  Yes, you can tell very easily.  Youtube is, unfortunately in the martial arts area, a truly pathetic source of gaining knowledge.  I check DAILY for good info on martial arts, and I have yet to see more than 1% actually deal with any sort of "real" self defence. 

To my mind, by referencing a youtuber, you loose TONS of credibility you think you had.  I suggest you watch the Last Samuri so you can get your "fill" of western overcoming eastern to satisfy your ego. 

Sorry for the rant.  Back to your regularly scheduled katana discussion.

[BigfootNZ]

avado wrote...

Here's the problem I have with this.   I didnt watch it because I saw that the katana he is holding isnt a "real" one.

Sorry for the rant.  Back to your regularly scheduled katana discussion.

yes all Youtubers are mindless idiots <_<

Theres the real problem, you didnt watch and therefore didnt hear what he had to say... as they say on one website I use regularly... 'Deny Ignorance'.

He more or less says that everything the mystique of the Katana trys to put forward is really just a load of old hyperbole and western fantasy. He's taken alot of verbal abuse from Katana worshipers because of it... he even bashs ninjas in one vid by bringing up alot of good points to poke holes in the fantasy of the black wearing uber assasins. Those who dismiss him off hand are usually those who cant tell reality from fiction, or would rather believe in the romantic/hollywood version of it all rather than the realistic logical reality.

A few points he mentions is the fact the Katana is a very thick weapon, compared to european swords which are far more suited to cutting armor, they are usually weapons of last resort (more like iron clubs than swords, and its amazing how some 'demonstrations' have katanas cutting metal sheets that are no where near the thickness of actual armor, not to mention in no way hardened like it would be), Katanas cant slice through other swords or gun barrels ala hollywood (although alot still give the Katana credit for this impossible ability), the Celts where making better steel centuries before the japs where, and western weapon smiths where constantly developing better swords... where as the japs basicly made the katana... then never changed its design, ever (and that has little to do with the Katana being a perfect weapon, since its far from it, to me its because they ended up turning the weapon into an icon of station rather than a functional tool for combat.. and the japs love their tradtions after all).

Those who dismiss the guys points are more often the die hard adherants to the Cult of the Katana/Ninja/Samurai... would it hurt you to learn that the Samurai where not noble lords but in really nothing but high class fuedal thugs for the most part, the western view of them being all honorable really stretchs the reality of it.

Give me a 2 1/2 foot long haft of oak with a set of lagnets, a spiked hammer face on one side and a pick spike on the other and a good 7 inch pointy prong on the top and a good shield and ill beat the crud out of the nearest samurai with it

Short of it all... give the guy a chance, listen to what he says and then make up your mind. Give him some credit, he knows what hes talking about, regardless of weather you or I agree with him or not.

avado wrote...
 I suggest you watch the
Last Samuri so you can get your "fill" of western overcoming eastern to
satisfy your ego. 

Whats ego got to do with it?, that was guns vs swords, no contest... it happened in europe centuries earlier and was the death knell of the knight and the sword for them too, the insular east just took longer to realise that and adapt to the change.

Im not saying west is better than east (although id say the west is better at these things than the east overall, thats just a fact of history), im saying Katana's are not all that and a packet of crisps as so many teenage boys with anime addictions like to think. Its a weapon and it does well for what it is... but its in no way the pinical of swordcraft, nor are the east the greatest martial artists (you do realise martial arts is a very general incompassing term for ALL combat arts and styles, including western sword play etc). For to long my ancestors have been considered nothing but clumsy barbarians who thump each other with crude weapons compared to the magical east... with a little research its easy to see its nothing like that in reality, im just standing up for the much derided western side of the debate

Hopefully this doesnt become an argument... ive said my rebutal that is all.

Oh and ill say one more thing, the Samurai where masterfull Archers ill give them that.

I deffinetly encourage you to do some research into real medieval combat both east and west... you'll be amazed just how differnt it is in reality to what you see portrayed in pop culture...its better (if you can get past living without all the flashy laughable moves).

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 23 novembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[avado]

BigfootNZ wrote...
Theres the real problem, you didnt watch and therefore didnt hear what he had to say... as they say on one website I use regularly... 'Deny Ignorance'.

LMAO!  When a guy is holding a TOY sword and claims to be an expert, there is a serious lack of credibility to ANYTHING he says.  That you listen to him at all says one thing.  Personally, I refuse to listen to every tom dick and harry that decides to vent on youtube.  To use youtube as a source says alot about ALOT. 

Now, I have no use for any discussion that claims a katana is better than a western sword or vice versa.  It is pointless.  Since nwn does NOT implement the katana the way some of us feel it should be done is what this topic is about and that is all. 

[painofdungeoneternal]

Perhaps we should get back to katanas instead of focusing on each other or youtube.

Giving up on all this is kind of disappointing, you are saying there is no way, when i am trying to figure out a way to adjust them as custom content which makes them more like how we are discussing. The topic is interesting, and is relevant to NWN2.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 23 novembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[dunniteowl]

And I agree. Including the casting of aspersions to credibility sight or sound unseen/heard. If you choose to not accept something based on your own personal filters, that's fine, but don't make it about someone else not having the necessary knowledge, credibility or information when you personally refuse to even allow it to be entered into your own personal record.

The whole point of information is that it has to be EXAMINED to be given any validity or refuted. It is is dismissed out of hand before experience, then, from the perspective of anyone truly seeking more knowledge, that person loses out automatically.

I think there is plenty of room to add things like katanas, more monkish monk abilities, etc, and to add things that make a swashbuckler or weapon master more able as that character goes. NWN2 as it stands without Community modification doesn't do it. That just means that someone at some point in time will come along and figure something out if it can be.

And now, officially, I am sorry I made a comment about katanas at all if this is how its going to end up going when someone disagrees with something they don't examine for facts.

dunniteowl

[I_Raps]

Is a swashbuckler with a katana less dorky than a katana with shield? Why would anyone use a rapier?

On the other hand, the 1d8 18-20 X2 non-finessable slot is available and unique (I think).  And you would pay for the marginal improvement over longsword with the Exotic feat.

On the other other hand, is re-hardcoding the base items even possible?

Modifié par I_Raps, 23 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Because rapiers don't need exotic weapons feat i imagine.



I was thinking more along the lines of making an actual samurai class. I never saw the katana as that important, it is a perfected design ( ie 900 years of history and you can't improve it without doing something entirely new like make it into another type of sword ). But the real thing which makes it powerful is that it's an extension of the person holding it.



I do like making it a finesse weapon though. I just really want to make it so it's not really as viable to the western styled classes, rapiers to me should be a better choice for a western styled character, and katanas should remain rare. Taking the exotic feat just to get them might be enough to do that. However i'd like a weapon master type who uses a single katana, a bow, basically a small selection of exotic weapons, lighter armor and uses both wisdom and dexterity in combat. This could use the lore and play the role of the samurai, but i'd want it to be something which needs to focus on finesse more than brawn, who has strengths, but those are balanced by drawbacks and weaknesses.

[nicethugbert]

You could give the Samurai bonuses with the katana, custom or weap. spec./focus line as class feats; likewise for certain armors and other equipment, etc.



I prefer to just see the Samurai as a higher level fighter.

[dunniteowl]

^ this

|

[BigfootNZ]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I was thinking more along the lines of making an actual samurai class..

Isnt their already such a class in 3rd edition?.. its in the Complete Warrior isnt it. Looking at my old Oriental Adventures manual from 1st edition the Samurai in there basicly gains the following.

1st level Ki Focus gaining 18/00 strength once per day for 1 round (gains more uses 1 per level each day)

2nd level proficiency in Horse Riding. +1 bonus to damage rolls, +1 per 3 levels.

3rd level Can only be surprised on a 1 on a 1d6. Bow proficiency

5th Immune to fear

6th Cause fear in 1HD or less creatures at will due to appearance. Feared creature either flees or surrenders to the Samurai... save negates it for that encounter.

7th Is offered Stewardship of one of his lords domains. And gains some men at arms.

8th gains the position of constable of one of his lords provinces gains 10d10 men at arms and has to act as teh law for the area.

9th level gains 2d10 1st level Samurai as followers. Also gains the ability to ki shout paralyzing targets and gaining a 18/00 strength.

Unfortunatly theres alot of special restrictions and rules for them given they are fairly weak when you look at it, which worked fine for the Oriental campagin setting but thats about it. The Complete Warrior version is fairly similar just minus the gaining of followers, troops and land.

I would take the Complete Warrior version and try and tie in some free weapon feats to make the character want to use a katana over other weapons (since the Complete Warrior version doesnt have weapon specific stuff), maybe add the 1st edition bonus damage and make it Katana specific (i think they gain bonus fighter feats, maybe strip any weapon bonus feats to allow only bow and Katana specific feats). I often found the Oriental classes rather restrictive a Ninja was more or less a location locked rogue, who wasnt really any better at doing the job, the Samurai was even more restrictive than a paladin, Yakuza being the most restrictive class of them all (your abilities are more or less tied to a specific city, suburb, block, yikes)... only class i ever found neat was the Wu Jen thanks to their spell list and the Taboo's they had to live by made for some great roleplaying  oppertunities.

I havent read the 3rd edition Oriental Adventures maual before, so i dont know how much was altered or what remained.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I do like making it a finesse weapon though

Why?... its a two handed weapon (in reality), and a glorified cleaver... in no way a weapon of finess (Watch some Kendo fighters, no finesse at all its all about being the first to hit the other which is about strength not dexterity which is why the Rapier while medium is a finesse weapon, since its all about finding the right spot to target rather than applying brute force damage from a strike. Sure in terms of game mechanics and making it a more unique weapon then sure what ever goes, but it needs to make a little sense.

(Heck id remove Bastardswords from the game personally since in reality them and broadswords are nothing but other names for varients of Longswords, and they are identical to Katanas... Gygax may he rest in peace caused quite a few problems with making terms like 'Plate-mail', chain-mail and  bastardswords, broadswords there own unique types of weapons, bad habits though are hard to remove from the community at large).

Oh and DNO I wouldnt feel bad, I personally  thought it would be fun to discuss such things as historical weapons (its hardly off topic really)... i just didnt expect such a hostile responce from one indirvidual. Debate is good.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Found Deadliest Warrior
http://www.spike.com...t-warrior/37916

That episode has has samurai vs spartan ( and a previous episode had samurai vs viking )

Which does some pretty detailed comparisons. Worth watching.

That show was a good example of sloppy research, judgment and bias... pure entertainment really, taking their results in any way as fact is like using the National Enquirer as your main source of serious news. Not slamming you in anyway so dont take that comment personally.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
But the real thing which makes it powerful is that it's an extension of the person holding it.

Like every other weapon ever forged, wooden stick or brocken glass bottle...

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 23 novembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

National Enquirer was the one who made sure John Edwards was not president, and was up for a pulitzer. I would focus less on who said it and more on what is said.



That show is pretty informative, but the entire premise is silly to begin with, we just don't know and can't know. I think we need to just accept that a warrior from the 1700's vs a warrior from the 1200's ( or whatever era ) just would not have met, and if they did they would have adapted. For the environment they existed in they were great warriors.

[The Fred]

BigfootNZ wrote...
... if you look at reality, the Katana was in fact quite an inferior weapon to most Western bladed equivilants. The weapons mythology has given it a rep it doesnt actually deserve.

AFAIK, the iron in Japan was pretty shoddy. The katana-making process was highly skilled, but it had to be just to balance out the poor quality raw materials.

BigfootNZ wrote...

Sieben Elfriend wrote...
Want to defeat plate armor? Stand off a couple of hundred yards and hit it with your logbow.

Where can i find this Logbow?... sounds absolutely leathal. Personally Id go with a good suit of chain against a bow, most arrows cant pentrate it and the links absorb a large ammount of the impact.

Since bows were used for hunting, they had to be pretty awesome even to punture the hide of, say, a wild boar. I once saw a programme (can't remember what it was tho) where they were comparing longbow with crossbow and testing them on a wooden boar model wearing chainmail. Certainly I wouldn't fancy my chances in just chain agaisnt a crossbow, though plate vs bow maybe.

Sieben Elfriend wrote...
The Fred: Wasn't the main character in Shogun an American sailor shipwrecked in feudal Japan? Perhaps I'm confusing it with another movie, it's been awhile. My point was that it isn't the sword that's deadly, but the master wielding it.

He was English as I recall (the Spanish guy - I think he was Spansih - keeps calling him "Ingles"), but regardless your point still stands.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Found Deadliest Warrior

I remember reading about that but didn't mention it as I thought it was ninja vs Spartan, and as you said, it's a somewhat pointless question (though interesting)... as I remember it, the Spartan won mostly because of his awesome shield which made him more or less impervious to most of the ninja's attacks, and could double as a weapon.

avado wrote...
Now, I have no use for any discussion that claims a katana is better than a western sword or vice versa.  It is pointless.  Since nwn does NOT implement the katana the way some of us feel it should be done is what this topic is about and that is all.

Actually I think this topic was originally about whether a katana-wielding NWN2 character is viable, it's just grown from there, but whatever.

I_Raps wrote...
On the other other hand, is re-hardcoding the base items even possible?

Changing the weapon stats is easy but making them finesse-able is, as far as I know it, impossible (you can, I think, make a work-around, but not actually flag them as finesse).

I'm actually intending to make the Samurai class for my current project (whenever I get back around to working on it again) since it's going to be set in an Oriental-esq setting of my own devising. The only reason I haven't yet is I've been mulling over how the Samurai works as both an NWN2 class and a social class (i.e. a position in society and the feudal system) but I still mean to do it. Eventually, anyway.

EDIT: Sorry for the long post, half of it is quotes, though.

Modifié par The Fred, 24 novembre 2010 - 12:58 .

[nicethugbert]

Sieben Elfriend wrote...
Want to defeat plate armor? Stand off a couple of hundred yards and hit it with your logbow.

Logbow rulz!  Logbow is Teh Pwnzasaurus!

[kevL]

nicethugbert wrote...

Logbow rulz!  Logbow is Teh Pwnzasaurus!

I woke up in the middle of the night, remembered this .. and started laughing my head off (again) - for real.

(no offense to the creator of .. wait for it .. the Logbow!)

[kevL]

Logbowl ..? hm

[Seliph]

What's the Strength check to fire the logbow?

[dunniteowl]

Take it easy, it's all in good fun. And I think the logbow is also known as a Ballista and it would definitely outdo a katana or plate mail any day.

dno

[nicethugbert]

Log by Blamo!

[Torquemada_]

Can you buy Katanas in Forte Locke? Otherwise, where do you find your first Katana.