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[Eleinehmm]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

Why do people talk as if you could have a personal Warden that BioWare didn't write.

Because you could.

BioWare wrote every single warden line.

The lines alone are not sufficient to rob the player of agency.

As well as they wrote every single Hawke line. Unless it's in your head (which you can still do in DA2, imagination knows no bounds) I don't really see the difference between Warden and Hawke. Shepard is a different case because intead of the vague generalities the Warden would say, he add very specific lines that went a along his unique personality (which is better than a character which only speaks vagueness to me) but that is a feature of Mass Effect, not a consequence of the wheel or voiced protagonist. The voice doesn't at all reflect personality.

Aren't all lines specific?  They are those specific lines, after all.

The barrier in ME was that the player wasn't able to choose the lines, so Shepard's behaviour was being generated effectively randomly.

And further, because the character was voiced and presented cinematically he would impart a specific tone to each uttered line (something the Warden did not do, or if he did the player could easliy ignore it - I was entirely unaware of such a tone, so I doubt it was even there) regardless of the player's preference, and he would take actions the player might never have chosen given the option (which the player was not).

Is it possible to offer a PC who is controllable to the same degree as the Warden using the ME dialogue system?  We don't know.  But we do know that it's possible to offer a much more limited control.

You now, in the old pre-DAO days I thought you were being too harsh, but now I find myself agreeing almost all the times, except probably on gameplay-story-cutscene segregation issue.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
How is that better?  All it does is create more restrictions.

If you want to pick dialogue options with a timer, get a damn timer.

Sarcasm. See, even with an attempt at conveying pragmatics, the literal dialogue was not enough for you to understand me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I understood the literal content, which is all you could have reasonably expected.

[Meltemph]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I understood the literal content, which is all you could have reasonably expected.

I got his sarcasm though... And thought it was clear.

[Sylvius the Mad]

IRMcGhee wrote...

The words spoken perhaps, not his/her's behaviour. The paraphrase selects Shepard's thoughts, the words spoken are (of course) his thoughts filtered through his/hers personality which has set parameters. You can't create a Shepard wildly different from "canon", for want of a better term.

Two points.

First, if what you say is true, then the game's documentation should have mde it much more clear that we were selection thoughts rather than words (in a typical BioWare game, I'm selecting words, and the thoughts behind them are entirely within my control, and might chance from character to character even when selecting the same line under the same circumstances).

Second, for us to play Shepard at all (rather than just watching him) the game would have needed to tell us something about his personality rather than leave us to guess.  If that personality is the filter through which his thoughts are expressed, we can't credibly direct him unless we know what that filter's effects are.

And we didn't.

I'm not saying Mass Effect's system can't work.  I'm saying it didn't work in Mass Effect.

[Ziggeh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

IRMcGhee wrote...

The words spoken perhaps, not his/her's behaviour. The paraphrase selects Shepard's thoughts, the words spoken are (of course) his thoughts filtered through his/hers personality which has set parameters. You can't create a Shepard wildly different from "canon", for want of a better term.

Two points.

First, if what you say is true, then the game's documentation should have mde it much more clear that we were selection thoughts rather than words (in a typical BioWare game, I'm selecting words, and the thoughts behind them are entirely within my control, and might chance from character to character even when selecting the same line under the same circumstances).

Second, for us to play Shepard at all (rather than just watching him) the game would have needed to tell us something about his personality rather than leave us to guess.  If that personality is the filter through which his thoughts are expressed, we can't credibly direct him unless we know what that filter's effects are.

And we didn't.

The old M/M romance threads were chock full of debates over about how the dialogue was approached. There isn't a "canon" interpretation, nor should there be. I think it can be approached in a number of ways, indeed more so than the DA:O system, which I feel is a strength.

That's not to say either is "better", I believe it's subjective. I happen to be keen on the ME system.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm not saying Mass Effect's system can't work.  I'm saying it didn't work in Mass Effect.

I suspect this has more to do with approach and preference than the system itself.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I said that it's not something you can describe as complete gutting. It's obviously a trade-off, wherein you're trading the nominal amount of customization available in DA:O to get a unique look. As stated previously, you can still give companions a bunch of items to wear that affect their stats, AND you can modify/enhance their existing armor. This is not the same as the ME2 changes because in ME2, one obviously could not change or enhance party members' gear at all.

Its a lame trade off, very lame at that. Its sad that people nowadays need a distinct outfit to be able to relate to a companion in a game. Just flat out sad.

Runes weren't all that great in Origins, I'm guessing they prolly won't be all that different in DA2, and I highly doubt they'll be many visual changes, as that would mean work for the art guys, and since the dev cycle was so short god forbid they did much of that.

I'm actually playing through Divinity II: The Dragon Knight Saga, that I picked up off of steam on a whim, and for a little known European dev, they sure did pack alot into it, tons of distinct different looking armor and weapons, all giving visual looks, and a huge world, with plenty of actual quality voice acting for a European made RPG, on what I'm sure wasn't any where near the budget DAO had or DA2..

I've said it before but if this trend of "streamlining" ala ME2 with regards companions, limiting weapons for classes, reducing game systems rather than expanding and slowly having less and less content in the core game at ship, with DLC dollar signs in their eyes, it seriously won't be long before I just stop buying Bioware games.

We really don't have any details on what they've done with runes yet, but we'll see if that's been improved or not later when they release more information presumably. How nice that you managed to devote a portion of your response specifically to impugn the work ethic of the art guys though. I'm sure that they'll really appreciate seeing that you're so dismissive of the many hours they've probably spent working their butts off. *snort*

Let me get this straight though: you've said that you dislike the graphics and the new art direction in previous threads, thus implying that the art guys actually did some work - work that you don't like. Now you're saying that there won't be many visual changes after complaining about the visual changes that the art guys made? 

Meh, maybe my cold has my brain scrambled and I misread that. Do feel free to elaborate on what you meant, but I'm off to rest a bit and pop some Tylenol (plus drink more water).

Perhaps I should have phrased what I meant better. Because of all the hot rod ninjaing of the art in general, there was likely little time for armors and the like because DA2's dev cycle was more of a quick forging ahead rather than a calculated one. At least thats the perception I have of it, when you consider how rushed and somewhat half baked feeling that Awakening and most of the dlc gave off.  So they instead decided lets just go the ME2 route due to it being an easier solution.

The fact of the matter is, every bit of information so far has led to layers of customization either going away completely, or being extremely stripped down on limited. How anyone can pat them on the back for those decisions is beyond me but there you have it.

[MerinTB]

slimgrin wrote...
I'm ambivalent about the timed dialogs, honestly. It would seem that a second time through the game would render them pointless. Maybe someone who has played Alpha Protocol can comment on this. I suppose it could be a gimmick.

I think it was meant to simulate urgency, try to make the game feel more real-time.

Giving a choice, I'd rather not have the timer... but overall it didn't bother me in the least in its execution...

honestly, the only thing that having a timer on the dialog choices changed about how I played the game is that, unlike ME or DA:O, I couldn't walk away from the computer to use the bathroom, get a snack, make a phone call, etc, while leaving the game on the dialog choice screen waiting for me to pick a response.

[Tsuga C]

But, Sarah, according to BioWare it's NEW & IMPROVED!

Heh.  This reminds me of the idiots in government thumping the table with their fists and mindlessly repeating the words "strong fiscal policy" to reassure people while they're simultaneously printing more fiat currency by the trainload.  

Modifié par Tsuga C, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:23 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Tsuga C wrote...

But, Sarah, according to BioWare it's NEW & IMPROVED!

Heh.  This reminds me of the idiots in government thumping the table with their fists and mindlessly repeating the words "strong fiscal policy" to reassure people while they're simultaneously printing more fiat currency by the trainload.  

New & Improved is apparently code for striped and dumbed down. Course putting liberals and strong fiscal policy in the same sentence is generally setting up for some epic comedy and fail, but I digress.

[John Epler]

Let's keep the real world politics out of this thread.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[AlanC9]

Damn -- I was all set up to start graphing people's RW politics against their game tastes. Or maybe their forum discussion styles....

[AtreiyaN7]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


Perhaps I should have phrased what I meant better. Because of all the hot rod ninjaing of the art in general, there was likely little time for armors and the like because DA2's dev cycle was more of a quick forging ahead rather than a calculated one. At least thats the perception I have of it, when you consider how rushed and somewhat half baked feeling that Awakening and most of the dlc gave off.  So they instead decided lets just go the ME2 route due to it being an easier solution.

The fact of the matter is, every bit of information so far has led to layers of customization either going away completely, or being extremely stripped down on limited. How anyone can pat them on the back for those decisions is beyond me but there you have it.

Ah, I see. That helps clarify things. However, I don't think what they did was take the easier more expedient route. Easy would have been sticking to same unmodified engine and using the same exact armor they had in DA:O. Instead, they chose to redesign things.

This will probably not translate to a wide variety of common armor - as in your average junky piece of rogue leather, etc. In many games that I've played, what one usually gets for common armor is multiple versions of the same exact armor in different colors. It almost seems to not matter which game it is. I can't recall any games that wowed me with really awesomely different versions of common armor. *shrug* 

I'd like common armor to be unique and different, but that's not something I actually expect from any game company. As far as any unique sets go (like the Legion of the Dead armor in DA:O) that Hawke might end up wearing, I'll be waiting to see if they've managed to make those more visually interesting.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Damn -- I was all set up to start graphing people's RW politics against their game tastes. Or maybe their forum discussion styles....

Doesn't that figure.

[AlanC9]

And I was only planning to be a little condescending, too. Ah, well....



As for the topic, continuing with the existing art doesn't seem to have been a realistic option. The two things that DAO was marked down for were bad console play and art that looked obsolete even on release and worse, was boring. So if you have to do a redesign anyway you're left with having a longer dev cycle and lower profit margins, or what we have got with DA2. Unless, that is, more armor customization would mean more sales, which mitigates the profit margin issue somewhat, though even in that case you're still pushing DA3's money further into the future.



It's easy for me to say that I prefer the DA2 approach. I get the game faster and I haven't lost anything I'm interested in. YMMV.

[burning salaradile]

Buttons are more responsive now, so that makes this game a "Hack and Slash"? A "Hack and Slash" is like Diablo, and endless grindfest. The combat is not that different from DAO in actual differences. This is not a console port.

[Allison W]

OK, stupid question, and one that might have already been answered--if we're playing this on the PC, but have a PC-compatible gamepad (say, an XBox 360 controller), will we be able to use the console-style action-oriented controls, or will we be limited to PC-oriented keyboard and mouse controls?

[Brockololly]

Allison W wrote...

OK, stupid question, and one that might have already been answered--if we're playing this on the PC, but have a PC-compatible gamepad (say, an XBox 360 controller), will we be able to use the console-style action-oriented controls, or will we be limited to PC-oriented keyboard and mouse controls?

Given that the PC version has a unique GUI, when this has been brought up in the past, its been said you can only play the PC version with the mouse and keyboard.

[Allison W]

Brockololly wrote...

Allison W wrote...

OK, stupid question, and one that might have already been answered--if we're playing this on the PC, but have a PC-compatible gamepad (say, an XBox 360 controller), will we be able to use the console-style action-oriented controls, or will we be limited to PC-oriented keyboard and mouse controls?

Given that the PC version has a unique GUI, when this has been brought up in the past, its been said you can only play the PC version with the mouse and keyboard.

This actually really bothers me, because I played DAO on the PC and like having the ability to mod the game, but this is looking like a strike against the PC version since I would much prefer to use a gamepad.

EDIT: Thanks for the information, though. My apologies for not thinking to thank you the first time.

Modifié par Allison W, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[StingingVelvet]

In general it doesn't make a lot of sense for devs to spend time and money on support for gamepads in a genre that is traditionally better with KBM anyway. I have an xbox pad right on my desk for certain genres like racers and platformers, but it really makes little sense to support it for a tactical RPG or a shooter.

[Allison W]

Well they've said they're trying to hit more action-RPG points this time around, which is why I'd rather use a gamepad: I admittedly find myself more at home in ARPGs than TRPGs.

[StingingVelvet]

Allison W wrote...

Well they've said they're trying to hit more action-RPG points this time around, which is why I'd rather use a gamepad: I admittedly find myself more at home in ARPGs than TRPGs.

Well if it ends up playing more like a hack n' slash game then I would maybe want to use a pad too, but I don't think it will go that far into the action game genre.

[Marsbergen]

If it's anything like Jade Empire, I'll be using a gamepad.