247 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

 

Okay, just for the record - the Witcher 2 is using a paraphrase system. They even announced it with a pantronizing "red doesn't mean bad and blue doesn't mean good!" sort of way.

Pshh, you just don't get it Exile!  DA2 is not the witcher 2 so, Witcher 2 can do anything it want's!  Don't you get it(Don't worry, I don't get the Witcher comparisons either)?  

[In Exile]

slimgrin wrote...
I would agree with them on this. There are very good reasons not to color code intent, or to make moral dilemmas as obvious as Mass Effect does. But they haven't exactly been pc elitists like you are claiming.

Just to clarify, from the TW2 FAQ:

• In some, requiring a swift decision, dialogues, there will a clock
appear. If you don’t pick a dialogue option in given time, game will do
it for you (like it worked in Heavy Rain)
• Dialogue options will
show the shortened version of what Geralt is about to say (like it
worked in Mass Effect, but without "I pick blue, I'm a bad guy --- I
pick red, I'm a good guy" thing)

So not just paphrase, but timed paraphrase. Awesome.

ETA: also, they guy who wrote the FAQ hilariously got the colours wrong. 

As for the PC elitism, I seriously wish I could find the article where they basically said they're only designing for the PC so as to not be forced to dumb down their game for the console audience.

Meltemph wrote...
Pshh, you just don't
get it Exile!  DA2 is not the witcher 2 so, Witcher 2 can do anything it
want's!  Don't you get it(Don't worry, I don't get the Witcher
comparisons either)?  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

My favourite part is that they're using a gamepad to show off the game. Yeah, it's totally not an action-RPG. We're button mashing for strategy!

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm excited about the game. I think CDProjeckt has absolutely let their success get to their heads and they're trying to be insanely ambitious with this game, and I'm willing to bet anything it will be as much of a bug-ridden nightmare as any Obsidian release,  but they're trying to be innovative so I give them a lot of credit.

I just can't stand it when people want to gush over one developer.

Modifié par In Exile, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[kr33g0r]

Meltemph wrote...

 

Okay, just for the record - the Witcher 2 is using a paraphrase system. They even announced it with a pantronizing "red doesn't mean bad and blue doesn't mean good!" sort of way.

Pshh, you just don't get it Exile!  DA2 is not the witcher 2 so, Witcher 2 can do anything it want's!  Don't you get it(Don't worry, I don't get the Witcher comparisons either)?  

I think the reason is because people had an attachment to DAO. They understood the game, they liked it. Now DAII is coming out and people expect it to be a sequel of sorts to DAO. They are thinking of the aspects they liked in DAO and want more. Now they get excited that a sequel is coming out and essentially it is a new game that references aspects of DAO. That breaks ties to the old game.

The Witcher is a different game completely and people like it for different reasons. The Witcher 2 feels like a true sequel with something added as opposed to DAII which feels like a new game with things removed that is hanging off the story and hype of the first one.

That's how I see it anyway so hopefully that makes sense

Modifié par kr33g0r, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[slimgrin]

In Exile wrote...


So not just paphrase, but timed paraphrase. Awesome.

As for the PC elitism, I seriously wish I could find the article where they basically said they're only designing for the PC so as to not be forced to dumb down their game for the console audience.

I just can't stand it when people want to gush over one developer.

I'm ambivalent about the timed dialogs, honestly. It would seem that a second time through the game would render them pointless. Maybe someone who has played Alpha Protocol can comment on this. I suppose it could be a gimmick. Other than that, TW2 is staying true to it's roots as an action rpg. Even the paraphrase doesn't bother me, in TW2 or DA2 - as long a the paraphrase is accurate.

Given what Laidlaw has said on the forum, I'm mostly encouraged about the new developments in DA2 for pc. I still want to see the new tactical camera though. 

[AtreiyaN7]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I said that it's not something you can describe as complete gutting. It's obviously a trade-off, wherein you're trading the nominal amount of customization available in DA:O to get a unique look. As stated previously, you can still give companions a bunch of items to wear that affect their stats, AND you can modify/enhance their existing armor. This is not the same as the ME2 changes because in ME2, one obviously could not change or enhance party members' gear at all.

Its a lame trade off, very lame at that. Its sad that people nowadays need a distinct outfit to be able to relate to a companion in a game. Just flat out sad.

Runes weren't all that great in Origins, I'm guessing they prolly won't be all that different in DA2, and I highly doubt they'll be many visual changes, as that would mean work for the art guys, and since the dev cycle was so short god forbid they did much of that.

I'm actually playing through Divinity II: The Dragon Knight Saga, that I picked up off of steam on a whim, and for a little known European dev, they sure did pack alot into it, tons of distinct different looking armor and weapons, all giving visual looks, and a huge world, with plenty of actual quality voice acting for a European made RPG, on what I'm sure wasn't any where near the budget DAO had or DA2..

I've said it before but if this trend of "streamlining" ala ME2 with regards companions, limiting weapons for classes, reducing game systems rather than expanding and slowly having less and less content in the core game at ship, with DLC dollar signs in their eyes, it seriously won't be long before I just stop buying Bioware games.

We really don't have any details on what they've done with runes yet, but we'll see if that's been improved or not later when they release more information presumably. How nice that you managed to devote a portion of your response specifically to impugn the work ethic of the art guys though. I'm sure that they'll really appreciate seeing that you're so dismissive of the many hours they've probably spent working their butts off. *snort*

Let me get this straight though: you've said that you dislike the graphics and the new art direction in previous threads, thus implying that the art guys actually did some work - work that you don't like. Now you're saying that there won't be many visual changes after complaining about the visual changes that the art guys made? 

Meh, maybe my cold has my brain scrambled and I misread that. Do feel free to elaborate on what you meant, but I'm off to rest a bit and pop some Tylenol (plus drink more water).

[Revan312]

As kr33g0r said, people are worried because the DA they knew and loved is being molded into a more ME like experience, which clashes with the preconceived makeup of the DA universe and gameplay they're used to..



I'm personally on the fence about a lot of this, concerned, but I'm willing to see what the finished product looks like before judging. That doesn't mean I don't understand people's worries as it would be like taking Mass Effect and removing the PC voice, giving full line choices rather than paraphrases, having full gear customization of your squad (generic looking pieces though) and slowing down the combat considerably. People would be worried if not outright upset about it, so to think for a moment that people shouldn't be very concerned is ignorant, if not that then your simply an apologist.



Either way, people need to come to terms with the forum goers worries about the state of the franchise as even though the core world of DA is still there, many of the secondary mechanics and exposition devices are being redesigned and changed.

[Monica83]

As i already sayd ton of times if you are using a complete premaded character parhaprase schematic ala mass effect it's not bad at all.. You are playng a premaded character after all with is personality.. The problem begins when you create your character.. Because its a trick with that system you have the illusion to create a your character but you create nothing.. you only choice the sex and the appearance its a partial premade character for this using this system in a game that allow you to create your hero it's a shame... If you at this add: Static classes,Static companion outfit, Streamlizing fashion.... ,Bad broken animations... I don't see many thing improved from dragon age origins only much and much stepback and mass effectivizations.... If i want to play mass effect i play mass effect...simple..

Modifié par Monica83, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

So not just paphrase, but timed paraphrase. Awesome.

How is that better?  All it does is create more restrictions.

If you want to pick dialogue options with a timer, get a damn timer.

[The Masked Rog]

Why do people talk as if you could have a personal Warden that BioWare didn't write. BioWare wrote every single warden line. As well as they wrote every single Hawke line. Unless it's in your head (which you can still do in DA2, imagination knows no bounds) I don't really see the difference between Warden and Hawke. Shepard is a different case because intead of the vague generalities the Warden would say, he add very specific lines that went a along his unique personality (which is better than a character which only speaks vagueness to me) but that is a feature of Mass Effect, not a consequence of the wheel or voiced protagonist. The voice doesn't at all reflect personality.

[Atakuma]

Monica83 wrote...

As i already sayd ton of times if you are using a complete premaded character parhaprase schematic ala mass effect it's not all.. You are playng a premaded character after all with is personality.. The problem begins when you create your character.. Because its a trick with that system you have the illusion to create a your character but you create nothing.. you only choice the sex and the appearance its a partial premade character for this using this system in a game that allow you to create your hero it's a shame... If you at this add: Static classes,Static companion outfit, Streamlizing fashion.... ,Bad broken animations... I don't see many thing improved from dragon age 2 only much and much stepback and mass effectivizations.... If i want to play mass effect i play mass effect...simple..

all of the origins PC's could easily be considered premade characters. you had a predetermined background and last name just like Hawke.

[Monica83]

Yes Masked but in origin you read your answer so you are free with the limits to create a different psichological character you have freedom in that.. In a schematic paraphrasa system you only select a general line of what you character is going to say... This limit the control and also limits the roleplay factor..

[Atakuma]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

So not just paphrase, but timed paraphrase. Awesome.

How is that better?  All it does is create more restrictions.

If you want to pick dialogue options with a timer, get a damn timer.

I believe he was being sarcastic.

[Kurzan]

I'd like to see an official gameplay demo for the PC before I make my mind up on how much they're going to ruin Dragon Age.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Masked Rog wrote...

Why do people talk as if you could have a personal Warden that BioWare didn't write.

Because you could.

BioWare wrote every single warden line.

The lines alone are not sufficient to rob the player of agency.

As well as they wrote every single Hawke line. Unless it's in your head (which you can still do in DA2, imagination knows no bounds) I don't really see the difference between Warden and Hawke. Shepard is a different case because intead of the vague generalities the Warden would say, he add very specific lines that went a along his unique personality (which is better than a character which only speaks vagueness to me) but that is a feature of Mass Effect, not a consequence of the wheel or voiced protagonist. The voice doesn't at all reflect personality.

Aren't all lines specific?  They are those specific lines, after all.

The barrier in ME was that the player wasn't able to choose the lines, so Shepard's behaviour was being generated effectively randomly.

And further, because the character was voiced and presented cinematically he would impart a specific tone to each uttered line (something the Warden did not do, or if he did the player could easliy ignore it - I was entirely unaware of such a tone, so I doubt it was even there) regardless of the player's preference, and he would take actions the player might never have chosen given the option (which the player was not).

Is it possible to offer a PC who is controllable to the same degree as the Warden using the ME dialogue system?  We don't know.  But we do know that it's possible to offer a much more limited control.

[Atakuma]

Kurzan wrote...

I'd like to see an official gameplay demo for the PC before I make my mind up on how much they're going to ruin Dragon Age.

Sounds like you already have your mind made up

[The Masked Rog]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

Why do people talk as if you could have a personal Warden that BioWare didn't write.

Because you could.

BioWare wrote every single warden line.

The lines alone are not sufficient to rob the player of agency.

As well as they wrote every single Hawke line. Unless it's in your head (which you can still do in DA2, imagination knows no bounds) I don't really see the difference between Warden and Hawke. Shepard is a different case because intead of the vague generalities the Warden would say, he add very specific lines that went a along his unique personality (which is better than a character which only speaks vagueness to me) but that is a feature of Mass Effect, not a consequence of the wheel or voiced protagonist. The voice doesn't at all reflect personality.

Aren't all lines specific?  They are those specific lines, after all.

The barrier in ME was that the player wasn't able to choose the lines, so Shepard's behaviour was being generated effectively randomly.

And further, because the character was voiced and presented cinematically he would impart a specific tone to each uttered line (something the Warden did not do, or if he did the player could easliy ignore it - I was entirely unaware of such a tone, so I doubt it was even there) regardless of the player's preference, and he would take actions the player might never have chosen given the option (which the player was not).

Is it possible to offer a PC who is controllable to the same degree as the Warden using the ME dialogue system?  We don't know.  But we do know that it's possible to offer a much more limited control.

It is also possible to offer a much more limited control on the old system. Systems in and of themselves mean very little, implementation matter a lot, though. They said they were going for more character control than in ME. If we are going to compare how the dialogue was in previous games under certain systems, there were also games who used Origins-like dialogue that pretty much limited the player to a certain personality. The Witcher 1 being a good example. As for the voice over, I could easily impart tones to Shepard, if I was interested in such a thing. Just as much as you ignore the tone in which the NPCs answer to you (which point to a certain tone given by the PC to the phrase) in Origins, I could ignore the exact tone of Shepard's answer and put in a specific tone. Of course no character would react according to my tone, so it would make no sense, but that's the same as in Origins.

[Atakuma]

Nevermind

Modifié par Atakuma, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:05 .

[Nefario]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The barrier in ME was that the player wasn't able to choose the lines, so Shepard's behaviour was being generated effectively randomly.

And further, because the character was voiced and presented cinematically he would impart a specific tone to each uttered line (something the Warden did not do, or if he did the player could easliy ignore it - I was entirely unaware of such a tone, so I doubt it was even there) regardless of the player's preference, and he would take actions the player might never have chosen given the option (which the player was not).

Is it possible to offer a PC who is controllable to the same degree as the Warden using the ME dialogue system?  We don't know.  But we do know that it's possible to offer a much more limited control.

You certainly did choose Shepard's lines. The issue is the extent to which you were able to make an informed decision.
Also, the warden did impart a specific tone, you just never heard it. Problem was, the other characters did, and reacted accordingly. Similarily to Mass Effect, there was an issue with the player's ability to make an informed decision. Mass Effect had a problem with letting you know what you were going to say before you said it, Origins had a problem with letting you figure out how you said something even after you said it.
The system they're working with now may still have some issues, but it at least appears to be working towards correcting those that have popped up in previous games.

[IRMcGhee]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The barrier in ME was that the player wasn't able to choose the lines, so Shepard's behaviour was being generated effectively randomly.

The words spoken perhaps, not his/her's behaviour. The paraphrase selects Shepard's thoughts, the words spoken are (of course) his thoughts filtered through his/hers personality which has set parameters. You can't create a Shepard wildly different from "canon", for want of a better term.

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:36 .

[addiction21]

For those about to get into this discussion with sylvius... just agree to disagree right now and walk away. Its not a bad thing he just has his way of looking at it and wont give it a inch. Trust me.

Feel free to follow thru with it if you want to. I know hes more then happy to explain his reasons tho.

Modifié par addiction21, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[IRMcGhee]

I know, believe me, and I usually don't get involved. It's just that this nonsense about random behaviour he keeps coming out with really gets up my humpf

[Revan312]

The Masked Rog wrote...
The voice doesn't at all reflect personality.

Aaannnddd that's where you lost it..

Emphasis, inflection, tone, timber, pauses, elongation, pitches and lulls ALL create personality within voice. That is unless Hawke is going to speak in a complete monotone that is spaced evenly.

I just got done watching There Will Be Blood for the third time last night, and in one line from Daniel Day Lewis, without even seeing him, you can tell he's an ego-maniacal, demonic carcass of a man that cares for nothing but himself. The moment he spoke in that film I knew he was a disingenuous, elitist charlatan. *great movie btw, everyone should watch it*

To say that voice is removed from personality is simply wrong.. on so many levels..

Modifié par Revan312, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[TM13h]

What I wonder about the most is the reasoning behind the changes from DA:O > DA 2. Whether it is justified or not, people fear the consolization of their beloved DA series. DA:O was as much a western RPG as possible.



Now let's look at console RPGs. M9ost of them are jRPGs, and they are facing a decline in popularity and financially. Lacking customization, stale and linear gameplay, the same story told over and over, dated overall games that try to sell copies with eye-candy alone... look at the critical and financial response to the latest FF entries or any other once popular jRPG series.



Now why would any western developer go just that same route? Why simplify the gameplay, why giving gamers more eye-candy while at the same time taking away complexity and the options to customize your characters? Why would anybody want a western RPG go jRPG when most of the people are over-saturated with this kind of games? Wasn't part of the success that western RPGs saw over the last years that they were so much different from the less popular jRPGs?



Yes, DA2 will still be a western RPG, no, it will not transform into Dragon Fantasy XV or something. However, DA2 seems to be taking a heavy nod towards jRPGs, too heavy a nod for my taste.

[sarmatian1]

In Exile wrote...


My favourite part is that they're using a gamepad to show off the game. Yeah, it's totally not an action-RPG. We're button mashing for strategy!

I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm excited about the game. I think CDProjeckt has absolutely let their success get to their heads and they're trying to be insanely ambitious with this game, and I'm willing to bet anything it will be as much of a bug-ridden nightmare as any Obsidian release,  but they're trying to be innovative so I give them a lot of credit.

I just can't stand it when people want to gush over one developer.

No surprise there as TW1 was an action rpg in the sense how the battles played out. There wasn't lot of room for tactics or strategy...

I don't expect anything new in that regard.

But, I also (even more probably) like tactical RPG's and dumbing down of combat in favour of more action-oriented, fast-paced, press-a-button-awesome-happens type of combat isn't really my style, especially as we've seen and heard it all when ME2 was being developed when Dr. Myzuka said: "no, we're not taking away any of the RPG elements, we're just improving the combat..." Yeah, right...

[Eleinehmm]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

So not just paphrase, but timed paraphrase. Awesome.

How is that better?  All it does is create more restrictions.

If you want to pick dialogue options with a timer, get a damn timer.

  Timers - What happened with all the good old-fashioned reading...

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:28 .