223 réponses à ce sujet

[filetemo]

After reading the data Bioware made public that states a huge portion of customers never finished ME2 and DAO, it seems inevitable that from now on, all bioware games are going to be shorter, more streamlined, with a voiced protagonist, with less companions, less romances and more DLC.

It's the only thing that makes sense from a financial standpoint, sadly

I'm still in shock that several thousands of gamers never finished either game. And as they say, their money is as valuable to Bioware than that from us fans who roam the forums every day and finish several playthroughs.

Because, more romances, longer gameplay, several origins, and depth of RPG gameplay do not add to the sense of perceived quality to those people who doesn't finish the game, because they never got to feel those anyways.They never played other romances or other origins, yet they paid for the game and many of them are willing to buy a sequel.

Why developing content people does not play? it's better to release it as DLC since rabid fans are going to pay extra for it and people who does a single playthrough and never finishes it wasn't going to experience it.

And this is not a rant on console users. Many PC players never finished DAO and ME2.

Maybe the main quest of DA2 will be short and intense, for players not to lose their interest and get bored. Or maybe it will be longer so there's less optional quests that many people wasn't going to play anyways.

So this days, developers have a new challenge. Make players complete the games they buy, and make sure developed  content is played by everybody.And in a branched-story decision-heavy game like bioware does, that can be aserious headache and money bleeding issue.

Discuss away

[Jarek_Cousland]

How is it games like Fallout and Elder scrolls get so much money and playtime as opposed to Bioware games?



Because you dont need to play the main story? Thats the only reason I could come up with.

[Ulous]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...

How is it games like Fallout and Elder scrolls get so much money and playtime as opposed to Bioware games?

Because you dont need to play the main story? Thats the only reason I could come up with.

Fallout i'd say it is because it appeals heavily to the FPS players as well as the RPG'ers, Fable is similar in that it appeals to the Hack n Slashers/3rd person shooter fans as well as the RPG'ers and to some extent people who like Sims-esque type games.

Modifié par Ulous, 15 novembre 2010 - 11:15 .

[DarthCaine]

filetemo wrote...

it seems inevitable that from now on, all bioware games are going to be shorter, more streamlined, with a voiced protagonist, with less companions, less romances and more DLC.

err.. what? ME2 had the biggest number of squad mates and romances in ANY BioWare game

And streamlining doesn't mean less content.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 15 novembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Piecake]

Ulous wrote...

Jarek_Cousland wrote...

How is it games like Fallout and Elder scrolls get so much money and playtime as opposed to Bioware games?

Because you dont need to play the main story? Thats the only reason I could come up with.

Fallout i'd say it is because it appeals heavily to the FPS players as well as the RPG'ers, Fable is similar in that it appeals to the Hack n Slashers/3rd person shooter fans as well as the RPG'ers and to some extent people who like Sims-esque type games.

Those companies released data about customer playtime as well? 

I actually never finished morrowind or Oblivion.  It did make me realize that I am not a fan of sand-box games or that narrative style.  Found the combat pretty dull as well.  Different strokes for different folks and all

Back on topic, Im going to wait on reviews, playthroughts, etc before I get upset about the length of it.  It definitely would suck if the game was pretty bare bones and all of the extra stuff was DLC.  I cant really see that happening though

[filetemo]

just a quick note: I can't finish fallout new vegas. I delivered the platinum chip and quit the game. Don't know why, but I lost interest.



I spent twice the playtime in oblivion than in fallout 3. 100 hours to 50. I've spent 13 hours on FO:NV and I'm already bored. So it's not a bioware issue only.



This is why we shouldn't criticise players calling them casuals and blaming them for developers dumbing down their games. While I'm a hardcore Bioware fan and I'm all day here asking for more info on DA2, you could call me "casual FO:NV player".



So, if a Fallout developer comes out and says fallout 5 is going to be 50% shorter due to players not finishing the game, I'm one of those to blame.



And you will find people in fallout forums with 400hour playthroughs complaining about "those damn casuals quitting the game halfways, how can they? FO:NV is teh best rpg evah!!11"



Maybe in general, the mass of gamers in general is less dedicated to games than before, exceptions aside.I milk bioware games to the max, but I quit other games halfways, so I understand bioware's point of view.

[filetemo]

DarthCaine wrote...


err.. what? ME2 had the biggest number of squad mates and romances in ANY BioWare game

yes but, I think ME2 was the first Bioware game to collect data from players, ME1 didn't do it so Bioware couldn't adjust ME2 to players way of playing.

I may be wrong though.

[Ileanos07]

I hope you are NOT right - I completed DA:O few times and ME series many times And if those games were shorter... I might not enjoy them that much.

[Ortaya Alevli]

DarthCaine wrote...

err.. what? ME2 had the biggest number of squad mates and romances in ANY BioWare game

And streamlining doesn't mean less content.

You forget BG series. Your point still stands, though.

[DarthCaine]

I seriously doubt BioWare will ever make shorter RPGs than ME / JE.
If they do, it'll be with lots of consequences (replay value), at the expense of gameplay hours (like Alpha Protocol)

Modifié par DarthCaine, 15 novembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[Piecake]

DarthCaine wrote...

I seriously doubt BioWare will ever make shorter RPGs than ME / JE.
If they do, it'll be with lots of consequences (replay value), at the expense of gameplay hours (like Alpha Protocol)

I'm actually kinda hoping for drastic branching narratives after the time skips in DA 2.  I'd sacrifice gameplay hours to make that happen

[KLUME777]

filetemo wrote...

After reading the data Bioware made public that states a huge portion of customers never finished ME2 and DAO, it seems inevitable that from now on, all bioware games are going to be shorter, more streamlined, with a voiced protagonist, with less companions, less romances and more DLC.

It's the only thing that makes sense from a financial standpoint, sadly

I'm still in shock that several thousands of gamers never finished either game. And as they say, their money is as valuable to Bioware than that from us fans who roam the forums every day and finish several playthroughs.

Because, more romances, longer gameplay, several origins, and depth of RPG gameplay do not add to the sense of perceived quality to those people who doesn't finish the game, because they never got to feel those anyways.They never played other romances or other origins, yet they paid for the game and many of them are willing to buy a sequel.

Why developing content people does not play? it's better to release it as DLC since rabid fans are going to pay extra for it and people who does a single playthrough and never finishes it wasn't going to experience it.

And this is not a rant on console users. Many PC players never finished DAO and ME2.

Maybe the main quest of DA2 will be short and intense, for players not to lose their interest and get bored. Or maybe it will be longer so there's less optional quests that many people wasn't going to play anyways.

So this days, developers have a new challenge. Make players complete the games they buy, and make sure developed  content is played by everybody.And in a branched-story decision-heavy game like bioware does, that can be aserious headache and money bleeding issue.

Discuss away

I dont get how more companions = better, or less streamlined. IMO less companions is better, because you get more time to get to know them all and they are better written. I think DAO had just the right amount of caharacters (not including Shale. Not that hes a bad character, its just that its a tad too many people to choose from, and you miss out on what others have to say). In ME2, there is often at least 1 or 2 characters that i never use, not even once, because id rather develop another character.

11-12 characters is too much too only bring two pwoplw along with you. 7-8 and bringing 3 along is just right.

[Khayness]

For every missed playthrough I'm offering to complete the games twice!

[KLUME777]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...

How is it games like Fallout and Elder scrolls get so much money and playtime as opposed to Bioware games?

Because you dont need to play the main story? Thats the only reason I could come up with.

Maybe because there great games?

I love both Bioware and Bethesda/Obsidion games, and have played them all many times. The one i have played the least is a Bioware game, ME2. Thats what happens when you casualise RPG's. Granted, i didnt much like ME 1 that much either (But i absolutely adore all other Bioware games).

Obsidion is making Fallout more hardcore and for the old fans and its GREAT!!! Fallout New Vegas is an absolute blast!, im playing it right now and cant get enough.

[filetemo]

KLUME777 wrote...


I dont get how more companions = better, or less streamlined. IMO less companions is better, because you get more time to get to know them all and they are better written. I think DAO had just the right amount of caharacters

yes, DAO had the right number of companions for me too.

But I'm afraid if player's data showed bioware that many players stick with their default party through the game, we'll get 4 companions and one of them romanceable for future games.Why would you create more companions if you find out that (for example) 460.000 customers of DAO never recruited Leliana at all? that's a scary number (I'm just making it up, I know)

Besides, we complain about lack of customization, but we are (at least I am) guilty for this. I spent 40% of my first origins playthrough in blood dragon armor, because it had the best stats, and then switched to Warden commander armor for the rest of the game. I only used other sets when I didn't have the STR requirements to wear anything else. I almost never used Oghren in combat because I couldn't find a complete set of armor that suited him, and I didn't want to roam around with a dwarf rainbow with silverite armor, dragonbone boots, elven gauntlets and honnleath helm. He looked like he was on acid with all those mismatched armor parts

[Jarek_Cousland]

also with the era of online gaming being about, more people would play a quick game of CoD or LFD2 online with other people then play a 20+ hour game where it doesnt get really good until about 5 or so hours in.



We are a breed apart. Single player RPGS are a thing of the past thanks to abominations like WoW. (in terms of popularity anyways)





Fallout is boring now, I played too much of 3 and now have little to no interest in the franchise at all anymore, I'm the same way with Halo.

[Herr Uhl]

KLUME777 wrote...

Obsidion is making Fallout more hardcore and for the old fans and its GREAT!!! Fallout New Vegas is an absolute blast!, im playing it right now and cant get enough.

For me it is probably an equal amount of contrast between FO3 and NV that makes me love it. FO3 was only desolate and brown, with a handful at most settlements. Actually having a city and some culture is pretty much what I missed from FO2 setting-wise (I.e Vault-City, New Reno, NCR and Los Angeles sized ones).

[KLUME777]

filetemo wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...


I dont get how more companions = better, or less streamlined. IMO less companions is better, because you get more time to get to know them all and they are better written. I think DAO had just the right amount of caharacters

yes, DAO had the right number of companions for me too.

But I'm afraid if player's data showed bioware that many players stick with their default party through the game, we'll get 4 companions and one of them romanceable for future games.Why would you create more companions if you find out that (for example) 460.000 customers of DAO never recruited Leliana at all? that's a scary number (I'm just making it up, I know)

Besides, we complain about lack of customization, but we are (at least I am) guilty for this. I spent 40% of my first origins playthrough in blood dragon armor, because it had the best stats, and then switched to Warden commander armor for the rest of the game. I only used other sets when I didn't have the STR requirements to wear anything else. I almost never used Oghren in combat because I couldn't find a complete set of armor that suited him, and I didn't want to roam around with a dwarf rainbow with silverite armor, dragonbone boots, elven gauntlets and honnleath helm. He looked like he was on acid with all those mismatched armor parts

If people didnt recruit Leliana, thats not because they didnt like her or werent interested in her, its because of lack of direction on Biowares part for not making it painfully more obviousa to enter the tavern. Because if you enter the tavern, your forced to have her join you (i think).

[Wulfram]

filetemo wrote...

Besides, we complain about lack of customization, but we are (at least I am) guilty for this. I spent 40% of my first origins playthrough in blood dragon armor, because it had the best stats, and then switched to Warden commander armor for the rest of the game.

That's Bioware's fault for giving out overpowered armour at the start of the game.

edit:

KLUME777  wrote...
If people didnt recruit Leliana, thats not
because they didnt like her or werent interested in her, its because of
lack of direction on Biowares part for not making it painfully more
obviousa to enter the tavern. Because if you enter the tavern, your
forced to have her join you (i think).

No, you can turn her down.

Though I think the real question is not whether you recruit them, but whether they spend a meaningful amount of time in your party.  In truth, my game probably wouldn't have been hurt to much by leaving out Zevran and Oghren, but others certainly would.

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[KLUME777]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Obsidion is making Fallout more hardcore and for the old fans and its GREAT!!! Fallout New Vegas is an absolute blast!, im playing it right now and cant get enough.

For me it is probably an equal amount of contrast between FO3 and NV that makes me love it. FO3 was only desolate and brown, with a handful at most settlements. Actually having a city and some culture is pretty much what I missed from FO2 setting-wise (I.e Vault-City, New Reno, NCR and Los Angeles sized ones).

The thing i like about New Vegas is they found the exact balance for Hardcore and Casual/shooter players. Its "casual" features are stuff like Aim-down-sight and modding the weapons akin to CoD online (which are great and i really like), and also Hardcore for (obviosly) Hardcore mode, lots of new features which better the game for experienced players, lots of nods and references to Fallout 1 and 2 (for example, the music even, is from the old Fallouts), the setting and feel, lots of other stuff........Over all im really enjoying the game. I keep talking about it, lol.

[Jarek_Cousland]

KLUME777 wrote...

If people didnt recruit Leliana, thats not because they didnt like her or werent interested in her, its because of lack of direction on Biowares part for not making it painfully more obviousa to enter the tavern. Because if you enter the tavern, your forced to have her join you (i think).

You're actually painfully right with that, most 'casual' gamers need to have their hands held with everything in order to do it.


Why ask around town to find that mysterious ruin in Cyrodil when a map marker is pointing it the whole way?


Sure training wheels make riding a bike easier ergo 'more fun'. But it hinders your ability to do things for yourself both in game and real life. Which is another reason why people would much rather play "simpler" games, so they dont have to think. Just shoot (woot for Solid Snake quotes )

[Xallah]

We may be using only our defalt party during the game, but on the other hand everyone has his/her own default party, because we're different. For example I used Leliana a lot, but almost never used Sten, even thought he was a better tank than Alistair.



I'm sure Bioware won't sacrifice companion number. Because it's obvious that we need something to choose from. A bigger variety of (of course not too many, but you get my point) companions makes the game appealing to a greater number of players. Also you need it because there are so many specializations. And wasn’t the number of companions one of the most memorable things about ME? I’m sure people in Bioware understand it and know that there’re people who really value this part.



Of course the issue makes sense, but i really hope that Bioware won't do what is written above. They'll lose their style. Besides games aren't only about money, it's an art too.



And about Fallout. I can't really play new Fallouts, because I played the first and the seconds ones. They were so huge and interesting and everything. These are too boring for me. But that's just Imo.



P.S. Dear members of these forums, let’s do everything we can to prove Bioware, that their games need to stay as deep and long and with lots of choices and etc… as they are )))

[Jarek_Cousland]

Xallah I like your leadership skills. Bringing the fans together and what not, where as I'm more likely to sit in the back of the room and make snarky comments.





I'm with everything you said

[filetemo]

KLUME777 wrote...



If people didnt recruit Leliana, thats not because they didnt like her or werent interested in her, its because of lack of direction on Biowares part for not making it painfully more obviousa to enter the tavern. Because if you enter the tavern, your forced to have her join you (i think).

yes but, for whatever reason somebody didn't recruit leliana, they never got to experience her character, so Leliana didn't add game value to their experience.

If I didn't commit myself to end the quest of the thieves guild in Oblivion, I would've never experienced the epicness of the final mission. So that would have not added satisfaction to my oblivion experience.

That's why the challenge for developers is to push players to play optional content, because many people who did not finish DAO maybe would've felt compelled to keep going had they discovered this or that fantastic optional quest.

And that's why some people says "DAO sucks" and then you talk to them and they tell you "wait, you mean I can have sex with my companions? I didn't know!" "I can execute Alistair? really?" "I can have gay sex with zevran?? hahaha show it to me, I wanna see!!" "I can recruit the giant? I always left him to die when leaving Lothering" "there's spell combo's? whoa you one shot that guy with rock fist and cone of cold!"

So, maybe the easy option is to include everything in the main quest

[philbo1965uk]

filetemo wrote...

After reading the data Bioware made public that states a huge portion of customers never finished ME2 and DAO, it seems inevitable that from now on, all bioware games are going to be shorter, more streamlined, with a voiced protagonist, with less companions, less romances and more DLC.

It's the only thing that makes sense from a financial standpoint, sadly

I'm still in shock that several thousands of gamers never finished either game. And as they say, their money is as valuable to Bioware than that from us fans who roam the forums every day and finish several playthroughs.

Because, more romances, longer gameplay, several origins, and depth of RPG gameplay do not add to the sense of perceived quality to those people who doesn't finish the game, because they never got to feel those anyways.They never played other romances or other origins, yet they paid for the game and many of them are willing to buy a sequel.

I don't understand why this appears to come as a shock to you...is this the only Genre you play ?

Activision started this business model of milking the genuine gamer and EA followed suit.
Have you heard of Guitar hero and COD
All modern releases are like this now geared towards making as much as possible from a single title.

It's a little unfair that Developers take all the criticism for what essentially is ' fulfilling their contractual obligations'.

Only those Developers sharp enough to have NOT signed away all their independance to the publisher will be producing quality / Lengthy games.
 
They still are a few small independant Devs that are filling the niche but I'd expect them to become more prominent in 2011  which will see a lot of  the disenfranchised gamers moving to them.
 
Tripwire Interactive being one such team (though different genre)

A good starting place for updates and links to these developers is:

http://www.igda.org/

Bioware were aquired by EA in 2007 one wonders if this is the reason for change in game direction.Bioware still retain branding but as none of us are privy to their contract who knows what the future holds.

They are all pushing for micropayments and DLC...thats just the way it is..and very unlikely that it will change until console gamers wise up.

Rule of thumb on PC platform is let the donks buy it and wait for the reviews.

Modifié par philbo1965uk, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:29 .