42 réponses à ce sujet

[HippeusOmega]

Has anyone sided with their no good for nothing brother Bhelen just cause they know Harrowmont wouldnt get nothing done? What was Bhelen's response when u did it? Cause thinking of trying my DN out again but siding with my brother.

[ddv.rsa]

My DN gave him the crown at the last possible moment, after siding with Harrowmont the whole time. The dialog was priceless.

Bhelen: Why would a Paragon entrust a murdering exile with such a weighty decision!? This is utterly ridiculous!
...
Warden: I grant the crown to Bhelen.

Ha! That's the only time I can recall Bhelen being at a loss for words.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Elhanan]

I recently took the choice to go thru the Provings for Harrowmont, then become a "spy" for Bhelen and plant evidence. All ended well when I returned from the Anvil and gave the crown to Harrowmont, and watched Bhelen lose it as well as his second at the palace.

Bhelen and his team seem easy to dupe, so I suppose you could actually work for him, too.

[HippeusOmega]

Well i've read that Orzammar prospers more better under my brother's rule. I mean nothing gets done with Harrowmont. I heard i get accepted back into House Aecudan after i get Bhelen the throne and later i can become a paragon? Also what effect does taking Bhelen's bait killing Trian serve in the origin story cause i may do it. Just cause Trian pisses me off so much more then Bhelen.

[Elhanan]

The temporary situation in Orzammar does improve, though at the cost of a tyrannical rule. I have allowed this to occur with my DC, but not my DN; just cannot stomach the notion of what dear old Dad had to go through in his last days due to that bearded chunk of Nug droppings.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

You can rather easily RP it as your DN not holding Bhelen's actions against him since it was normal Orzammar politics in action. He played the game and set the stage without most people realizing it. It showed he had both the ambition and skill to work in the Assembly.

I'm pretty sure a Dwarven Warden gets to be a Paragon regardless of choices made. I know my casteless did after siding with Bhelen and dieing on the archdemon.

[HippeusOmega]

what if Duran Aeducan is just as twisted as his younger brother?

[user5304792]

If you side with Bhelen as a DN he comments that you're more pragmatic than he gave you credit for and goes on with business as usual.

[Ferretinabun]

Don't forget you can play the DN origin so that you do actually kill Trian. Okay, Bhelen may have orchestrated it, but if you play your DN a little slow on the up-take or simply blinded by their own guilt, you can easily say you're determined to see an Aeducan on the throne without really working out what a scheming little nug he is.

[Gilsa]

His comments will be slightly snotty, but the gist of it is (as said above) that the DN is more pragmatic than he gives him credit for. If the DN sleeps with one of the noble hunters in the origin and the DN asks Bhelen for help with his son, Bhelen will be somewhat of a jerk about it (as in relish your misfortune), but will agree to take your child in.

Furthermore, this dialogue is not often discovered in the game because it requires a specific set of circumstances, but if you 1) first agree to help Harrowmont in the Provings and then 2) approach Vartag with Wynne in your group and tell him that you only did it to be a spy on Harrowmont, Vartag will like this idea and Wynne will be dismayed. She is the only party member that acknowledges what Bhelen did to you in the DN origin and asks you to reconsider. So if you want to hear that dialogue, just make sure she's in your group and be sure to commit to Dulin Forender first. Sten and Shale will also comment, but only in regards to the flip flopping. Wynne is very specific to Bhelen. You can also do this as a DC and have different answers for Wynne based on the origin.

And if the DN sides with Bhelen, as far as I know, Bhelen will restore the DN's status on the spot. If you side with Harrowmont, you have to wait until post-coronation ceremony for Gorim to say you've got full rights restored. Not a big deal either way.

Modifié par Gilsa, 17 novembre 2010 - 12:30 .

[Da1AnOnlyCrazy]

Pie

[Kamorel]

I found myself supporting Bhelen in the end with my dwarf noble.

Why?

1. My character found Trian appalling, so he would have killed Trian in a heartbeat if he had the chance.

2. Right before Duran (my char) was exiled, Harrowmont claimed that he believed Duran that he was tricked by Bhelen, that he was framed and all that jazz.. Despite this, he refused to see Duran face to face when he returned to Orzammar! What the squack, man?! Instead that sodding two-faced son of a harlot sends Duran on errands, making him fight in the Provings in Harrowmont's Team before he would deign to grant Duran an audience, and after that he sends me destroy Orzammar's Carta thugs, so that he could take the honours. He was no better than Bhelen, using Duran like a cheap prostitute for his power games. Bhelen at least was more honest about his underhanded tactics.

3) As Piotin said: "The throne belongs to the Aeducans!". I didn't have the heart to let the throne go to another house.

4) Finally, my character had let the past go, being a grey warden and all. He'd put things in perspective, and forgiven Bhelen in the end.

That's my two cents..

Modifié par Kamorel, 20 août 2013 - 10:14 .

[Lady Yunalesca]

Yes, I too supported Bhelen with my DN. I've done it both ways, to where I actually do kill Trian, and where I do not.

I also had two kids to think about with my DN that should at least be able to have a decent life, despite my DN absolutely despising his brother. Siding with Bhelen was the only way to make sure his kids could be considered of noble blood.

That, and I don't like the ending of DA:O with Harrowmont as King, Bhelen does good even though he is a tyrannical ass. Oh, and also I didn't have the heart to not let the Aeducan's not keep the throne either.

Modifié par Lady Yunalesca, 22 août 2013 - 06:47 .

[Bhryaen]

I so wanted to go the Bhelen route with my DN Jagan, knowing metagamingly that Harrowmont would pretty much spell disaster for Orzammar, but my character was an m!DN with a kid, so it was complicated by Bhelen's attitude. Bhelen isn't just a little insulting about your DN's "brat" and its "wh0re" mother, basically promising only some spare room in the back corner of the palace rather than an accepted part of House Aeducan. His comtempt leaves you wondering just how safe your kid can possibly be, and the thought of Bhelen insulting the poor kid constantly and even pitting his own son against him (contending heir to the throne and all)... just didn't sound like the right choice for a parent.

When Jagan spoke with Harrowmont he received nothing but respect for both his child and its mother. Jagan was promised compassionately that his child would have full protection and adoption by House Harrowmont- thus still getting Mardy what she wanted- and no sense of being considered some inferior member of the House to merely be tolerated (for now). It came down to either supporting his brother whose treachery made confidence impossible both as a parent and as an Orzammarian or supporting a good upbringing for his kid and a family friend who had advised his father all his life. Alas, he went with Harrowmont... *sigh* Bloody roleplay decisions... Struggled with that one a while...

But now I'm going with another DN- an f!DN Klydia. So the parental concern won't be there. I'm also playing her without political ambitions (sort of a dwarven Alistair- the reluctant heir to the throne) and surprised to find herself happy as a surfacer, making Orzammar's constant blood feuds and power plays not so binding on her. That'll make whatever decision she makes less personal, so hopefully I'll be able to play her supporting Bhelen despite his machinations to get her killed. Still difficult to determine though, so she hasn't returned yet. She was very disappointed that Bhelen hadn't at least asked her to support him in the Assembly since she'd have gladly advocated him over Trian or herself prior to him going fratricidal on the family.

The biggest difficulty is just that contemptible bloody Vartag whose insults while trying to meet with Bhelen make it sooo hard not to side with Harrowmont just so I can later kill the little Bhelen weasel in the Palace. Too bad we don't get a conversation option when speaking with Bhelen to say we'll support him on only one condition: immediately execute Vartag. >:-)

I admit though that I was dismayed like in a post above when my m!DN discovered that, despite Harrowmont's support before the exile, now Harrowmont couldn't trust him. ??!!?? "My brother just conspired to have me exiled to the Deep Roads with diddly to defend myself- and you were there, so you know it was no ruse- and yet you suspect me of now being his best chum??! Are you utterly dim??!"

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

I admit though that I was dismayed like in a post above when my m!DN discovered that, despite Harrowmont's support before the exile, now Harrowmont couldn't trust him. ??!!?? "My brother just conspired to have me exiled to the Deep Roads with diddly to defend myself- and you were there, so you know it was no ruse- and yet you suspect me of now being his best chum??! Are you utterly dim??!"

Seeing as my previous DN sided with Bhelen after pretending to defect to Harrowmont, and my current DN really is defecting to Bhelen, I think Harrowmont worrying about yours was perfectly justified.

[Angrywolves]

Bhelen was my dwarf's brother. He betrayed her and had her exiled, so she supported Harromont.
She even got the pleasure of killing Bhelen.
A rare treat.

[Bhryaen]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Seeing as my previous DN sided with Bhelen after pretending to defect to Harrowmont, and my current DN really is defecting to Bhelen, I think Harrowmont worrying about yours was perfectly justified.

Well, obviously people side with Bhelen, so in general Harrowmont is justified in caution, but the point is that the DN is treated no differently than anyone else, no matter what happened or what conversation options were chosen in the Origin. I'd anticipated at least some empathy for what my DN had endured, some sense of a natural ally, or even a gesture of "welcome back" or something even if not offering immediate access to him- a gesture that obviously Bhelen was in no position to offer- but it was just, "Oh, you're still alive after all? Well, don't think you can fool me with any Bhelen trickery. Pass my test first... if you can!" "Wait, aren't you the one who went out of your way to equip me before my exile? The hell..." I wouldn't say he was "perfectly" justified in the level of his mistrust of the one person in Thedas who otherwise had the most cause to despise and oppose Bhelen, but, yeah, dwarven politics being what it is. He would've had my DN's support immediately had he been more receptive, test or no. That said, Dulin wasn't really a ****** about it like Vartag is, so, not that big an ordeal...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Panznerr wrote...

what if Duran Aeducan is just as twisted as his younger brother?

He's better than the Assembly?

[Ozzy]

Sided with Harrowmont all the way until it came time to actually choose a King. Ultimately, we don't know what the end result is gonna be insofar as that Harrowmont ends up being a worse King than Bhelen but I figured that the Dwarf Noble would have some inside knowledge about Harrowmont and thus his shortfalls. Of course, the DN is angry at Bhelen but recognises it's all part of the game in Orzammar. By siding with Harrowmont all the way through, my DN demonstrated to Bhelen just how lucky he was to receive the crown in the end and how closely Bhelen had come to losing everything.

[sylvanaerie]

My DN wanted to be a Grey Warden, despised Orzammar and its convoluted shark tank passing as politics, and hated being in the middle of Bhelen's petty little power play. She understood Harrowmont's precarious position, and I think it's him who arranged the 'exile' for the DN when Bhelen wanted an immediate execution? But I could be wrong. I'll have to play again and see. Anyway, she didn't kill Trian, but she killed that lying scout in the deep roads for being a two faced liar, and I wish there had been an option to do the same to that backstabbing little megalomaniac man-child brother of hers. The very first chance she got, she gleefully stuck the knife between baby bro's ribs. Unfortunately, as dwarves aren't my favorite race to play that's as far as I got on her.

It seems as though he has a lot of supporters on the BSN boards but frankly, I don't see how he helped much.  All he did was make cannon fodder out of the casteless (which I guess is better than them begging in the streets)--he doesn't abolish the caste system at all.  He does get in more trade (that was already a part of the Orzammar society, not sure how HE could make MORE trade as that would be decided by the merchants/surface dwarves et al involved in that).  And he dismantles the Assembly when they disagreed with him (this will create a power vacuum even worse than after Endrin's demise when Bhelen dies/finds himself assassinated).  Hmm yea, real 'golden boy' there.  His achievements only seem better in comparison to the epic fail that is Harrowmont's reign.  Frankly I despise both choices.

My DC is another story, being she has a personal stake in seeing little Endrin's father on the throne and powerful in Orzammar. And the way the story is played out, putting Bhelen on the throne seems very normal to Natia. Bioware actually did some very clever writing in this part of the game.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 08 septembre 2013 - 01:48 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

sylvanaerie wrote...

My DN wanted to be a Grey Warden, despised Orzammar and its convoluted shark tank passing as politics, and hated being in the middle of Bhelen's petty little power play. She understood Harrowmont's precarious position, and I think it's him who arranged the 'exile' for the DN when Bhelen wanted an immediate execution?

Not wrong, but more inaccurate. The exile was the DN's execution, and Harrowmont tried to stop that. When he failed, he attempted to influence where the DN was sent, and he managed to get him/her sealed into tunnels connected to the ones the Wardens were still fighting in.

It seems as though he has a lot of supporters on the BSN boards but frankly, I don't see how he helped much.  All he did was make cannon fodder out of the casteless (which I guess is better than them begging in the streets)--he doesn't abolish the caste system at all.

He gives the casteless more rights in exchange for this, and he apparently weakened other restrictions.

He does get in more trade (that was already a part of the Orzammar society, not sure how HE could make MORE trade as that would be decided by the merchants/surface dwarves et al involved in that).

I think the implication is the surface merchants aren't allowed in as often as they could be. That's easy enough for him to fix, if no noble gets in the way.

His achievements only seem better in comparison to the epic fail that is Harrowmont's reign.  Frankly I despise both choices.

Well, since those are the only choices...

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Storywise, you don't have any reason to believe that Bhelen would be a better ruler than Harrowmont. Unless Grey Wardens have the ability to see the future, Harrowmont is the more sensible decision. There's really no reason to believe that Bhelen would do anything positive. As for his Casteless concubine, bopping some poor gal does not typically signify sympathy towards poor people in general.  At least Harrowmont comes across as compassionate.  The DC might view Bhelen differently, since his/her sister has nice things to say about him.

Modifié par Sir Pounce-a-lot, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:19 .

[sylvanaerie]

My DC did see him very differently. Her views of Bhelen were colored by her sister's impression of him. Plus, she was trying to look after her big sis and ensure she and her son were taken care of (something that only putting Bhelen on the throne would have ensured). I also deliberately chose dialogues that would have him (and Vartag) respond in a nuetral or positive manner to her.

The fact that Bhelen calls her 'sister' didn't aid in his cause much considering what he does to his whole family but *shrug* that wasn't something Natia was privy to.

[TheButterflyEffect]

I always make Bhelen king in every other origin obviously. But, I'm fairly dismayed by his lingering hints of contempt for a Dwarf Noble even after you've crowned him. Ummm... what are the chances that he still will not try to murder the DN after they become a Paragon? Also, I feel worrying suspicion that male DN's son isn't safe with him... I hope he wouldn't actually mistreat him or try to kill him...

Also, it's pretty goddamn hypocritical that he insultingly calls your child and its mother a "brat" and a "wh*re", when he himself has a son... by a noble hunter.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The DN is immune to being disgraced as a Paragon, and provably resistant to being murdered. Besides, having a Paragon around would be useful. As for killing his son, that would be a poor move for as long as the DN stays around. Besides, Bhelen's son now has a better claim to the throne than the DN's son, due to Bhelen's status as king.

No argument about that hypocrisy thing.