42 réponses à ce sujet

[TheButterflyEffect]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The DN is immune to being disgraced as a Paragon, and provably resistant to being murdered. Besides, having a Paragon around would be useful. As for killing his son, that would be a poor move for as long as the DN stays around. Besides, Bhelen's son now has a better claim to the throne than the DN's son, due to Bhelen's status as king.

No argument about that hypocrisy thing.

I truly hope you are right. 

But being King is stupid and annoying. I want my wee boy to become the best warrior in Orzammer, the true son of a warrior Paragon! Glory!

Then again... a Paragon is the ideal of what every dwarf should aspire to be, far above any mere King. The son of a Paragon would logically stand a pretty good chance, if not better, of being elected. Really, it would depend on what kind of person he proved himself to be.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 25 novembre 2013 - 01:48 .

[sylvanaerie]

I suppose it would depend on the competency of the successor. But I get the feeling Bhelen would kill anyone who proved a threat to his rulership. He killed Trian, (or manipulated the PC into doing it for him).   I strongly suspect he murdered their father and tried to lay the blame for that on Harrowmont.  Certainly, if Endrin died 'of regret' as Gorim says, Bhelen had a direct hand in that demise in that his actions revealed how little he regards anyone else and daddy dearest sees how much his son has 'fallen'.  

He disbands the Assembly, so a successor couldn't use that power base. I also envision a future where his legitimate children (because he can't marry Rica--and he will have to have a queen) all squabble over the throne. Even if the player is a dwarf noble male and has that little side story floating around out there, his child is on shifting sand, and the Warden won't be around to protect him all his life.

Bhelen is effective because he's ruthless, and proud of it. I could easily see him pitting the next generation against each other in a vicious game to see who's 'worthy' of leading Orzammar after him.  He's already proven that honor or family loyalty means absolutely nothing to him.  If you stand between him and what he wants, you're dead.

Kind of like Howe that way.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 25 novembre 2013 - 12:54 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

Having a Paragon's kid kicking around would be too much of a convenience and power ploy.

Plus, House Aeducan needs as many swords as possible. The population is dwindling and any kids born are too valuable.

Besides, after his adventures, the PC is welcomed back by Bhelen with open arms with the aid from the humans, so, I think he genuinely comes to respect him/her too much, as the PC has proven they share the same goal: to do what is best for the dwarves.

Also - Bhelen's dissolution of the Assembly is almost certainly for the best. In both Orzammar and the human lands, democracy simply has repeatedly caused immense difficulties and proven ineffective. Shame there will be no more Paragons, though, but with his position secure, he probably feels utterly content with the PC being around.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 25 novembre 2013 - 11:31 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Assembly isn't democracy. It's oligarchy. There's a major difference.

Edit: For that matter, I don't recall seeing any democracy in the human lands either. The Landsmeet? It's an oligarchy as well. It's a more benevolent one than the Assembly, but citizenship and having a voice are not the same thing there either.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 novembre 2013 - 07:58 .

[TEWR]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

Storywise, you don't have any reason to believe that Bhelen would be a better ruler than Harrowmont. Unless Grey Wardens have the ability to see the future, Harrowmont is the more sensible decision. There's really no reason to believe that Bhelen would do anything positive. As for his Casteless concubine, bopping some poor gal does not typically signify sympathy towards poor people in general.  At least Harrowmont comes across as compassionate.  The DC might view Bhelen differently, since his/her sister has nice things to say about him.

Well, you can hear about how Bhelen is more open to trade with the surface nations, which is good. Whereas Harrowmont is more of a "bending over" type of guy and doesn't show much sympathy for the casteless. Indeed, go back to Dust Town after crowning Bhelen (maybe before getting the crown, though I know it requires Jarvia's defeat) and two casteless Dwarves talk about how Bhelen wants to use whatever Orzammar has against the Darkspawn and the Blight.

I can't recall ever hearing anything good about Harrowmont.

Personally, I hate siding with Bhelen as a DN because the entire thing serves as a means to kiss his ass when the political/social/cultural structure could indeed allow for a DN to become king if the right cards are played (Mary Kirby really screwed up there on an otherwise great plot. You need to look at the codexes though to get it all), but I wouldn't condemn Orzammar to life at Harrowmont's hands.

It's made worse when you see how painfully obvious Bhelen's "plan" was in the origin story.

[sylvanaerie]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Having a Paragon's kid kicking around would be too much of a convenience and power ploy.

Plus, House Aeducan needs as many swords as possible. The population is dwindling and any kids born are too valuable.

Besides, after his adventures, the PC is welcomed back by Bhelen with open arms with the aid from the humans, so, I think he genuinely comes to respect him/her too much, as the PC has proven they share the same goal: to do what is best for the dwarves.

Also - Bhelen's dissolution of the Assembly is almost certainly for the best. In both Orzammar and the human lands, democracy simply has repeatedly caused immense difficulties and proven ineffective. Shame there will be no more Paragons, though, but with his position secure, he probably feels utterly content with the PC being around.

I beg to differ.  Having the child of a paragon around would be a major stumbling block in the succession of his own heirs to the throne.  I can see the PC's son having a little 'accident' or dying of SIDS if he doesn't even make it out of his crib.  Being the child of a paragon isn't going to protect him against Bhelen's treachery.  Only if the warden goes to Orzammar and basically bodyguards the kid will he have some assurance of the child's safety.  Bhelen didn't pull his punches with Trian or the PC.  He won't with a child who might steal the throne from him or his chosen progeny either.

In regards to the 'we need swords agains the DS', if Bhelen cared about that, he'd have let Trian live, maybe find some other way to disqualify his brother from the throne, or (more likely) directly went after the PC.  Trian was a proven commander, the PC was just promoted to that the day before.  Bhelen only cares about Bhelen.  That he does something worthwhile on the throne while king is blind luck.  I always felt that was rather cheesy on Bioware's part.

The PC isn't welcomed back with open arms, Bhelen begrudgingly accepts his brother/sister because he really doesn't get much choice in the matter.  If anything, he actually gloats about his cleverness/ruthlessness getting him this close to the throne.  If the warden just hangs around being 1) a constant reminder of his crimes 2) guarding the next generation and in general being a 'threat' to his rule, Bhelen would find a way to ensure (as he planned with Branka) for the PC to have a little 'accident' just like Trian.  Gray Warden or Paragon status won't help the PC against assassination by poison or overwhelming numbers etc.

And while the Assembly is about as effective as a Jamaican bobsled team, they would be some form of order once Bhelen is dead.  If he dies without a successor, (and several assassination attempts are made on him) and the Assembly is completely disbanded, there would be NO order at all in Orzammar, it would descend into chaos.  In that instance I suppose the throne would have to be passed down to his first legitimate heir by default, but would that person be competent to rule after him?  And who would be guiding him?  Vartag Gavorn?  The PC has darkspawn to deal with, he can't babysit Bhelen and Orzammar, and will die young anyway.

Utterly content?  I don't see anything depicting 'open arms' welcome OR 'utter contentment' in Bhelen at all, even when crowned.  An example of how ruthlessly paranoid (though considering how he gets the throne, justified) the man-child is, he systematically hunts down every man, woman and child related to Harrowmont and attempts to wipe his house from existence.  If he did this to a family, who by this time, wasn't much of a threat, what makes you think he won't do that to anyone, even a child, who he perceives as such, actual or imagined.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 27 novembre 2013 - 11:14 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I beg to differ.  Having the child of a paragon around would be a major stumbling block in the succession of his own heirs to the throne.  I can see the PC's son having a little 'accident' or dying of SIDS if he doesn't even make it out of his crib.  Being the child of a paragon isn't going to protect him against Bhelen's treachery.  Only if the warden goes to Orzammar and basically bodyguards the kid will he have some assurance of the child's safety.  Bhelen didn't pull his punches with Trian or the PC.  He won't with a child who might steal the throne from him or his chosen progeny either.

That might well be the case.

In regards to the 'we need swords agains the DS', if Bhelen cared about that, he'd have let Trian live, maybe find some other way to disqualify his brother from the throne, or (more likely) directly went after the PC.  Trian was a proven commander, the PC was just promoted to that the day before.  Bhelen only cares about Bhelen.  That he does something worthwhile on the throne while king is blind luck.  I always felt that was rather cheesy on Bioware's part.

What else is Bhelen going to do that's guaranteed to disqualify his brother from the throne? As for going after the PC directly, that's not enough for Bhelen's plans: Trian's the bigger problem due to his being born first. As for giving the casteless swords, that gives more swords against the darkspawn and solves the problems of overpopulation of Dust Town, plus it weakens the carta due to the casteless now having another choice. The only reason not to do this is tradition, which Bhelen provably doesn't care about.

As for Bhelen only caring about Bhelen... yes. That's the main reason he does what he does. As to why this means his making needed reforms is only blind luck, I don't see it. A large part of Orzammar's problem is arbitrary traditions get confused with morality, which is why Bhelen (who doesn't care about either) can help them.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 29 novembre 2013 - 06:17 .

[sylvanaerie]

nm.  I had posted something, but it occurs to me these arguments have been going on for 4 years now and both sides keep repeating the same things over and over.  I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually, I think yours were new.

[Boydsan]

When i went as a Dwarf Noble - I did side with my brother - he played the "noble" game better than you did - and I became a Grey Warden and ultimately speaking could never go back.  Your brother seemed more open to trading and while a traditionalist - still had good ideas.

Modifié par Boydsan, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[Star fury]

Bhelen is both patricide and (almost always) fratricide. It's impossible to justify that imo and to side with him, even if it means a brighter future for Orzammar. I have absolutely no problem supporting Bhelen in every other origin, except DN one.

[Angrywolves]

Star fury wrote...

Bhelen is both patricide and (almost always) fratricide. It's impossible to justify that imo and to side with him, even if it means a brighter future for Orzammar. I have absolutely no problem supporting Bhelen in every other origin, except DN one.

This.
My dwarf nobles are Bhelen's sister or brother who he tried to frame and exile, so I could never support him.<_<

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Both of mine have. The first one for Orzammar's sake (I figure he'd have some clue what sort of king they'd each be) and the second because she thought an Aeducan should be on the throne.

[Angrywolves]

Kind of like supporting the person who murdered your father, brother or sister.Shrugs.Doubt many other players who did a dwarf playthrough did as you did.Your choice.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 24 décembre 2013 - 09:18 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The DNs I played were willing to pay that price for their own reasons. Though I was considering playing my second DN as being unwilling to.

[Star fury]

Angrywolves wrote...

Kind of like supporting the person who murdered your father, brother or sister.Shrugs.Doubt many other players who did a dwarf playthrough did as you did.Your choice.

And Bhelen tried to kill you too on top of that, his mom must love him.

[Spikeismugen]

I think the decision is simple, would you rather be a brother of a king, or just a hired thug?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think the decision is simple, would you rather be a brother of a king, or just a hired thug?

You're severely understating what the player is to Harrowmont in that Origin, but apart from that I think your point stands.