114 réponses à ce sujet

[Count Viceroy]

Razorsedge820 wrote...

Simple saving the base will give Cerberus and the Illusive man more power, power which they tend to do unethical things with.

That's rather irrelevant if all organic life gets turned into paste.

[wizardryforever]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Razorsedge820 wrote...

Simple saving the base will give Cerberus and the Illusive man more power, power which they tend to do unethical things with.

That's rather irrelevant if all organic life gets turned into paste.

So basically: Ten years from now is unimportant, as long as I'm fine tomorrow.  Thinking strictly short term is a pretty big flaw in any strategy.  You need to consider negative consequences to any actions you take, and people on both sides seem to conclude that there are no negative consequences to their side.  Truth is, we don't know anything about the base's tech (good or bad).  Some people reach the perfectly logical conclusion that the Reapers are defeatable without the base, and consider the consequences of giving Reaper tech to TIM to be unacceptable.  Other people come to the perfectly logical conclusion that we need everything that we can get to use against the Reapers, because being alive (under any circumstances) is better than being dead, right? 

It's not as clear-cut as you make it sound.

[Bebbe777]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

IIRC in the novel Mass Effect: Retribution there is a line about the base being destroyed, so chances are even if you hand it to TIM there is a possibility of a self-destruct code or some moron from a Cerberus team "accidentally" blows the thing up. 
 

From what i remember the book clearly skips around the issue by just calling it salvaged tech, ie it could be either. The only thing the book puts in cannon is that Udina is the councilman, and I believe that was a mistake.

"Retribution is written from an assumption that Udina was chosen as Councilor, as if Anderson were chosen the events of Retribution could not have occurred as depicted. While they recognize not everyone chose Anderson, in order to expand the ME universe the way they want sometimes they have to work from an assumed choice: they can't always get around not identifying Shepard, what happened at the Citadel, or the other big choices.



BUT, and this was clear, this was not a retcon. It was not an assertion that Anderson, if elected Councilor, would step down for Retribution to occur. It is not establishing Councilor Udina as canon. 



Think of it like this: Retribution is what will occur if you chose Udina as Councilor. The only choice it cares about or distinguishes is thatone. If you didn't choose Udina, the story of Retribution change, but we don't know how yet. But don't automatically assume a retcon of your choices.. "

[kraidy1117]

Bebbe777 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

IIRC in the novel Mass Effect: Retribution there is a line about the base being destroyed, so chances are even if you hand it to TIM there is a possibility of a self-destruct code or some moron from a Cerberus team "accidentally" blows the thing up. 
 

From what i remember the book clearly skips around the issue by just calling it salvaged tech, ie it could be either. The only thing the book puts in cannon is that Udina is the councilman, and I believe that was a mistake.

"Retribution is written from an assumption that Udina was chosen as Councilor, as if Anderson were chosen the events of Retribution could not have occurred as depicted. While they recognize not everyone chose Anderson, in order to expand the ME universe the way they want sometimes they have to work from an assumed choice: they can't always get around not identifying Shepard, what happened at the Citadel, or the other big choices.



BUT, and this was clear, this was not a retcon. It was not an assertion that Anderson, if elected Councilor, would step down for Retribution to occur. It is not establishing Councilor Udina as canon. 



Think of it like this: Retribution is what will occur if you chose Udina as Councilor. The only choice it cares about or distinguishes is thatone. If you didn't choose Udina, the story of Retribution change, but we don't know how yet. But don't automatically assume a retcon of your choices.. "

Um wrong. In the latest comic, Udina is councilor. Butter it up how you want. Bioware made Anderson step down and made Udina councilor.

Choices no longer matter.

[Xilizhra]

Isn't the supplemental material secondary canon? All that matters is what happens in ME3; judge them for not taking our choices into account then if Udina is Councilor no matter what.

[Bebbe777]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Bebbe777 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

IIRC in the novel Mass Effect: Retribution there is a line about the base being destroyed, so chances are even if you hand it to TIM there is a possibility of a self-destruct code or some moron from a Cerberus team "accidentally" blows the thing up. 
 

From what i remember the book clearly skips around the issue by just calling it salvaged tech, ie it could be either. The only thing the book puts in cannon is that Udina is the councilman, and I believe that was a mistake.

"Retribution is written from an assumption that Udina was chosen as Councilor, as if Anderson were chosen the events of Retribution could not have occurred as depicted. While they recognize not everyone chose Anderson, in order to expand the ME universe the way they want sometimes they have to work from an assumed choice: they can't always get around not identifying Shepard, what happened at the Citadel, or the other big choices.



BUT, and this was clear, this was not a retcon. It was not an assertion that Anderson, if elected Councilor, would step down for Retribution to occur. It is not establishing Councilor Udina as canon. 



Think of it like this: Retribution is what will occur if you chose Udina as Councilor. The only choice it cares about or distinguishes is thatone. If you didn't choose Udina, the story of Retribution change, but we don't know how yet. But don't automatically assume a retcon of your choices.. "

Um wrong. In the latest comic, Udina is councilor. Butter it up how you want. Bioware made Anderson step down and made Udina councilor.

Choices no longer matter.

This is what the writer said and if its true then you are wrong. But I don't have any hard evidence so lets just call it a draw. 

[MatronAdena]

kraidy1117 wrote...


Um wrong. In the latest comic, Udina is councilor. Butter it up how you want. Bioware made Anderson step down and made Udina councilor.

Choices no longer matter.

I'm not " happy" with that fact...but it also makes sense, Anderson was miserable in ME2, and more than happy to go out and do something in Retribution, and it really does fit him so I'm not really about to try and pretend it didn't happen, Anderson would likely step down if he felt someone could do better, and he was unhappy, and Udina would jump at the chance for power. Tis the difference between a true leader, and a Politician.

[Count Viceroy]

wizardryforever wrote...

It's not as clear-cut as you make it sound.

In this case it is. Short term vs long term is not a viable argument when the stakes are galatic extincion. Whatever foul cerberus can cook up, and they will, of that I have no doubt , it still is preferable to the reapers winning. Sure the base *may* turn out to be useless in terms of technological gain, but we have no way of knowing that.

Say we beat the reapers and tim goes on a galactic wide human crusade because of you. Still better than being organic paste. Destroying the base is either being spiteful to cerberus or simple personal pride. Either one is not spectre material, hell it's not special forces material either, meaning a shepard like that wouldn't even be in that situation the first place.  

Most people drip into meta gaming when it comes to this issue: Hey its fine. I know i'll be able to beat the game without it, thus it musn't be that important. I'd wager that if this was real and shepard was a real trained person in that situation, he'd save the base *every* time. You gain absolutely nothing by destroying it. Your main focus is the reapers, everything else is secondary. Information is power, guard it well.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:03 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Any victory by TIM's means won't be worth it; I'd rather die fighting them another way.

[wizardryforever]

Count Viceroy wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

It's not as clear-cut as you make it sound.

In this case it is. Short term vs long term is not a viable argument when the stakes are galatic extincion. Whatever foul cerberus can cook up, and they will, of that I have no doubt , it still is preferable to the reapers winning. Sure the base *may* turn out to be useless in terms of technological gain, but we have no way of knowing that.

Say we beat the reapers and tim goes on a galactic wide human crusade because of you. Still better than being organic paste. Destroying the base is either being spiteful to cerberus or simple personal pride. Either one is not spectre material, hell it's not special forces material either, meaning a shepard like that wouldn't even be in that situation the first place.  

Most people drip into meta gaming when it comes to this issue: Hey its fine. I know i'll be able to beat the game without it, thus it musn't be that important. I'd wager that if this was real and shepard was a real trained person in that situation, he'd save the base *every* time. You gain absolutely nothing by destroying it. Your main focus is the reapers, everything else is secondary. Information is power, guard it well.

No, it really isn't.  There's no non-metagame assurance that the Reapers can be defeated, just like there isn't any evidence that the base is necessary to defeat them.  Basically many Paragons would rather take the chance of the Reapers being defeatable with or without the base, and think about the long-term by not giving the potentially dangerous Reaper tech to a human supremacist organization.  Renegades are more pessimistic about the galaxy's chances, and risk a crapsack world after the Reapers, because nothing could be worse than death by Reapers right?

You don't gain nothing by destroying the base, you just don't gain as much as the possible gains from keeping it.  You still have EDI's vast amount of data that she mined from their databanks, and I would not be surprised if that proves to be far more important.  But I really see the flaws with either side of the argument as being pretty equal, it's all about overall world outlook.  Paragon = optimistic and Renegade = pessimistic with the extremes being naivete or paranoia.  It helps if one steps back and looks at one's argument from an outside perspective, and considers the alternative in a serious way.

[Count Viceroy]

wizardryforever wrote...

No, it really isn't.  There's no non-metagame assurance that the Reapers can be defeated, just like there isn't any evidence that the base is necessary to defeat them.  Basically many Paragons would rather take the chance of the Reapers being defeatable with or without the base, and think about the long-term by not giving the potentially dangerous Reaper tech to a human supremacist organization.  Renegades are more pessimistic about the galaxy's chances, and risk a crapsack world after the Reapers, because nothing could be worse than death by Reapers right?

You don't gain nothing by destroying the base, you just don't gain as much as the possible gains from keeping it.  You still have EDI's vast amount of data that she mined from their databanks, and I would not be surprised if that proves to be far more important.  But I really see the flaws with either side of the argument as being pretty equal, it's all about overall world outlook.  Paragon = optimistic and Renegade = pessimistic with the extremes being naivete or paranoia.  It helps if one steps back and looks at one's argument from an outside perspective, and considers the alternative in a serious way.

After what sovreign did to an entire fleet of ours and how they wiped out the protheans without breaking a sweat I'd argue you need every advantage you can get. As it is currently, we can't beat them in a straight up fight. Everything we can gain is vital. The reaper construction 'kit' could give us clues on how they are constructed, and thus how they are best dismanteled.

Yes, there's a lot of what ifs and it could turn out to be crap. But what *if' there's something useful there and it happened to be vital, then half the community would be without it and that is what I mean about the meta gaming.

You will obviously be able to beat the game no matter what you chose and bioware is way to mainstream to put any real consequences into their games. Add to that the flawless paragon track record so far when it comes to decisions backfiring, I'm sure you can see where this is going.

Ah whatever,  main issue is when it comes down it, pure paragons nor pure renegades aren't realistic soldiers to begin with. We really need more grey and less black and white.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Count Viceroy wrote...

After what sovreign did to an entire fleet of ours and how they wiped out the protheans without breaking a sweat I'd argue you need every advantage you can get. As it is currently, we can't beat them in a straight up fight. Everything we can gain is vital. The reaper construction 'kit' could give us clues on how they are constructed, and thus how they are best dismanteled.

Yes, there's a lot of what ifs and it could turn out to be crap. But what *if' there's something useful there and it happened to be vital, then half the community would be without it and that is what I mean about the meta gaming.

First off, I don't disagree with you regarding the Reaper's strength, but on the other hand, almost every single attempt with researching Reaper technology has resulted in disaster with the researchers being indoctrinated (and Saren, the best of the best genocidal maniac known to humankind, an elite Spectre to boot). If only the Thannix Cannon and EDI are the only two good products made out of reverse-engineeering Sovereign's corpse, then something's wrong here. On the Collector Base, there's no guarantee it will stay in safe hands. The Reapers are not ****ing morons. What's to stop them from doing a remote self-destruct system by the time a science team sets foot on the base, or better yet, doing a "remote indoctrination" so that the base will stay in enemy hands. No priiiize worth the risk here.

[Count Viceroy]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

. What's to stop them from doing a remote self-destruct system by the time a science team sets foot on the base, or better yet, doing a "remote indoctrination" so that the base will stay in enemy hands. No priiiize worth the risk here.

At the most, you're looking at derelict reaper level of casualties, a science team, cerberus at that (who cares about them dying right) in the grand scheme of the reaper invasion it's a small price to pay for any potential gain.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

. What's to stop them from doing a remote self-destruct system by the time a science team sets foot on the base, or better yet, doing a "remote indoctrination" so that the base will stay in enemy hands. No priiiize worth the risk here.

At the most, you're looking at derelict reaper level of casualties, a science team, cerberus at that (who cares about them dying right) in the grand scheme of the reaper invasion it's a small price to pay for any potential gain.

Let's double the rate each replacement science team enters the base only to join their predecessors ranks. By the time TIM runs out of personnel, the Reapers are already at our front door. Still haven't answered the self-destruct scenario.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Any victory by TIM's means won't be worth it; I'd rather die fighting them another way.

You'd also rather let everyone else die. The first sentiment is admirable. The second is disgusting.

[Elite Midget]

I was going to bring that up... Sure I blew up the Base but it wasen't for a selfish reason like that.



When you're weighing in on your choices for the base you have to consider the lives of countless innocents whichever the situation turns out. I simply don't trust Cerberus and suspect the Collector Base is a trap just like a majority of the Reaper tech I encountered from ME1+ME2. Whether this comes to bite me in the rear or not I will have to wait untill ME3. Though I'm hoping Bioware surprises me and punishes me in someway.



I mean, Paragons can already count on an easier time getting the Alien Races to back him. Only fair that Renegades get some edge to counter that. Such as turning Cerberus into a force to be feared in the Galaxy.

[V-rex]

Okay my original post left a degree of controversy so I'll just use this instead:

"Call me old fashioned but I just don't trust that someone with glowing red eyes, who hides in a dimly lit conference room, smoking a cigarette while overlooking a dark red burning planet, can ever be considered trustworthy. Seriously TIM, your organization has a bad enough image problem as it is without you having to present yourself like that."

Modifié par V-rex, 16 novembre 2010 - 12:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, someone certainly doesn't grasp that technology isn't dark magic.

[GodWood]

V-rex wrote...
Considering the only possible thing the Collector base could be used for would be to make Reapers.

Wrong

[V-rex]

GodWood wrote...

V-rex wrote...
Considering the only possible thing the Collector base could be used for would be to make Reapers.

Wrong

Well it was all I saw it being used for anyway, so maybe you have a point. I just don't really know what else that base could really have as all I saw was one giant mechanism built around the construction of a human reaper larvae.

The point is that the second I heard The Illusive Man declare 'human dominance' I knew I had made the right choice. I just don't trust him.

[V-rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, someone certainly doesn't grasp that technology isn't dark magic.

What are you talking about?

My point is that The Collector Base is a technology so powerful and so dangerous that it could almost be beyond any form of comprehension, and that in turn giving such technology to a group famed for amorality and extremism seems like a bad idea.

Especially when he declares that the giant ancient super weapon of doom could be used to 'secure human dominance'. I don't want the human race to dominate, just survive, along with all the other races in the galaxy. I don't want to rule above them and I certainly wouldn't give something that powerful to an organization like Cerberus.

That's just me.

[Dean_the_Young]

V-rex wrote...

What are you talking about?

Things said worthy of facepalming. If you need it spelled out to you why, think harder.

Because the handing of such a powerful weapon to anyone is dangerous and whereas handing it to a government might at least mean that there are ethics and laws bound to deciding how it gets used, we are instead presented with the option to give it to a corporation which is famous for amoral activity and ideals of racial extremism and is ready to go to extreme measures to assure human dominance.

In fact, I knew I had done the right thing the second I heard The Illusive Man scream:
"That technology could have secured human dominance in the galaxy!"

Seriously, that was all the proof I needed that there was more to his agenda then merely fighting the Reapers.If he had said that it could have helped 'protect the human race' or even 'helped to save the galaxy' then I would have had second thoughts. Instead he says 'dominance' I.E to dominate.

So basically he is saying that this ancient super weapon, powered by the bodies of sentient races, could be used to 'secure human dominance'. And I am expected to just hand this over not to a government bound by laws and morals but to an organization famed for having an almost supremacist outlook?

Considering they have already lied to me twice? Considering the only possible thing the Collector base could be used for would be to make Reapers? Also considering that the only way to make Reapers would be to use many innocent people in the same way the Collectors did?

To me this builds an image of not actually stopping the Collector threat, just giving the role to Cerberus instead. Made all the worse by remembering that he said 'Human Dominance' and wanted it to be given to Cerberus.

Seriously, all I could think when he was saying that was how I owed Ashley a huge apology for ever trying to maintain that Cerberus was just out to save the Colonies out the kindness of their hearts.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 novembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[Inverness Moon]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Maybe because Cerberus is a terrorist organization and plans to continue the Collector experiments on humans? (the latter was revealed in Retribution, though as if there was any doubt that TIM was lying)

Really? Those bastards!!! OMG that's messed up... but why do that when we're at the verge of extinction?

Because they need to find a way to fight and win against the reapers so we don't become extinct. That means finding out how collector and reaper technology works. And if that means we have to experiment on a "handful" of humans then so be it.

Considering that defeating Sovereign while it was in control of Saren's body was how we were able to destroy it in the first game, I'd say TIM was on the right track. It's unfortunate that the turians had to crash the party.

Edit: After reading the post before mine, I'd like to list some claims that are nonsense:

1. Cerberus wants to build a reaper
2. The collector base could only be used for building a reaper
3. You need sacrifices to build a ship as powerful as a reaper using reaper technology
4. Human dominance means ruling the galaxy

When people hear TIM say "human dominance" and think he wants humans or himself to rule the galaxy or something it is only because they consider him a dumb cliche villain, which he certainly is not.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 16 novembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[V-rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

V-rex wrote...

What are you talking about?

Things said worthy of facepalming. If you need it spelled out to you why, think harder.

Because the handing of such a powerful weapon to anyone is dangerous and whereas handing it to a government might at least mean that there are ethics and laws bound to deciding how it gets used, we are instead presented with the option to give it to a corporation which is famous for amoral activity and ideals of racial extremism and is ready to go to extreme measures to assure human dominance.

In fact, I knew I had done the right thing the second I heard The Illusive Man scream:
"That technology could have secured human dominance in the galaxy!"

Seriously, that was all the proof I needed that there was more to his agenda then merely fighting the Reapers.If he had said that it could have helped 'protect the human race' or even 'helped to save the galaxy' then I would have had second thoughts. Instead he says 'dominance' I.E to dominate.

So basically he is saying that this ancient super weapon, powered by the bodies of sentient races, could be used to 'secure human dominance'. And I am expected to just hand this over not to a government bound by laws and morals but to an organization famed for having an almost supremacist outlook?

Considering they have already lied to me twice? Considering the only possible thing the Collector base could be used for would be to make Reapers? Also considering that the only way to make Reapers would be to use many innocent people in the same way the Collectors did?

To me this builds an image of not actually stopping the Collector threat, just giving the role to Cerberus instead. Made all the worse by remembering that he said 'Human Dominance' and wanted it to be given to Cerberus.

Seriously, all I could think when he was saying that was how I owed Ashley a huge apology for ever trying to maintain that Cerberus was just out to save the Colonies out the kindness of their hearts.

Well, just explain to me why I should percieve the words 'secure human dominance' coming from the mouth of a man who has a reputation for running a terrorist organization and of whom has betrayed me at least twice in the past, as anything other than 'a bad sign'.
Plus, if he really cared so strongly for the fate of the Colonies then why opt to save something that was powered by killing those colonies? Okay so maybe it wasn't fueled by human bodies but the primary thing it was creating sure was, many people died to create the human reaper.

Yes okay, so the 'gives role to Cerberus thing' was rather overdoing it but the point remains, what exactly could the Collector base be used for to help combat the Reapers? Instead you are talking about handing the reins of a machine that is powerful beyond our understanding to an organization that has proven many times that it cannot be trusted?

What have you actually proven by highligting my points here? You've demonstrated that yes, 'screams' is an overstatement. What else though? Cerberus IS extremist, setting off a bomb in the Migrant fleet (or attempting to plant one anyway) just because you are afraid that they "Might" be an enemy is very extreme.
Considering mass producing the Rachni to turn into a single purpose army is very extreme too, as is trying to use the Geth's religion to turn them into a brainwashed army.

Seriously though I'd rather not go into debate about this, I heard that in retributution it was reveal that TIM really was planning to continue the Collector research but since there is no proof of that, I'll leave it with this:
The Paragon option was to blow up the base, I play as a paragon.

Poof, that's it. When it all boils down to it.

[Inverness Moon]

V-rex wrote...

Well, just explain to me why I should percieve the words 'secure human dominance' coming from the mouth of a man who has a reputation for running a terrorist organization and of whom has betrayed me at least twice in the past, as anything other than 'a bad sign'.

Betrayed you at least twice? When? If you think the collector ship operation was a betrayal then I completely disagree. TIM already explained why he withheld information and is was a good enough reason in my opinion. You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do.

If you think "secure human dominance" means conquer the galaxy then that is a ridiculous interpretation.

V-rex wrote...

Plus, if he really cared so strongly for the fate of the Colonies then why opt to save something that was powered by killing those colonies? Okay so maybe it wasn't fueled by human bodies but the primary thing it was creating sure was, many people died to create the human reaper.

Because TIM, being an intelligent person, obviously realizes that the collector base is good for more than creating reapers.

V-rex wrote...

Yes okay, so the 'gives role to Cerberus thing' was rather overdoing it but the point remains, what exactly could the Collector base be used for to help combat the Reapers? Instead you are talking about handing the reins of a machine that is powerful beyond our understanding to an organization that has proven many times that it cannot be trusted?

The collector base was being used to build your arch-enemies. Naturally, it should have information about how reapers are constructed. That information could be used to figure out how to fight and defeat them.

What I trust TIM to do is work to defeat the reapers.

V-rex wrote...

Considering mass producing the Rachni to turn into a single purpose army is very extreme too, as is trying to use the Geth's religion to turn them into a brainwashed army.

I see nothing about using rachni to be extreme. Cerberus is attempting to find a way to use rachni as soldiers so they can save human lives if we ever get into a war. One is coming up pretty fast. Project Overlord had similar intentions, as Archer tells you.

V-rex wrote...

Seriously though I'd rather not go into debate about this, I heard that in retributution it was reveal that TIM really was planning to continue the Collector research but since there is no proof of that, I'll leave it with this:
The Paragon option was to blow up the base, I play as a paragon.

Poof, that's it. When it all boils down to it.

Yes, TIM was planning to restart the collector experiments on a handful of humans. I approve considering we have virtually no options.

If you blow up the base just because its a paragon option, that is metagaming. People that argue about the collector base decision have no interest in metagaming.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 16 novembre 2010 - 11:28 .