114 réponses à ce sujet

[V-rex]

*sigh*

It's so hard defending your own words these days.


[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...


[quote]1. Cerberus wants to build a reaper[/quote]

I never said Cerberus wants to build a Reaper, only that I can't really see much other use other than a Reaper. My point was just that this is technology that is dangerous as we don't fully understand that, and any attempt to further study it might result in some bad repercussions and that I'd rather it be in the hands of someone a little more trustworthy.


[quote]2. The collector base could only be used for building a reaper[/quote]

Well, give an example of something else it could be used for. Everything in there seemed built solely around the construction of that human Reaper. I didn't see a weapons factory or a data base. So please, I actually mean no offence and probably don't fully understand what I'm talking about here, so if there is anything else in the Collector base please let me know.


[quote]3. You need sacrifices to build a ship as powerful as a reaper using reaper technology[/quote]

But you just made a justification for the continuation of Cerberus doing Collector experiments on humans arguing that sacrifice was needed. Also, we saw millions of bodies (maybe only hundreds who knows) going in to make that Reaper, from what we know it was made by turning humans into a kind of biological paste.

How can we know for sure that this doesn't work for all forms of Reaper Technology?

[quote]4. Human dominance means ruling the galaxy

When people hear TIM say "human dominance" and think he wants humans or himself to rule the galaxy or something it is only because they consider him a dumb cliche villain, which he certainly is not.[/quote]

Give me another defintion for the word 'dominance'. Seriously what other way can you call the word 'dominance' except for superiority, dominance means to dominate and to dominate means to rule and in the context of using a powerful (potentially considered) weapon to do so, claiming to 'secure human dominance' doesn't sound good.

Seriously, give me another context for it and then this can be up to debate.

Also, while Mass Effect may be very well written, it's not without cliches of its own:
"Oh I'm being brainwashed!"
"I am a warrior because I am part of an alien warrior race!"

Seriously, when you do the choice and save the base, he smiles wickedly and gazes at his prize while the screen goes red, sounds like a villanous image to me.

Modifié par V-rex, 16 novembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[V-rex]

[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...

[quote]V-rex wrote...

Well, just explain to me why I should percieve the words 'secure human dominance' coming from the mouth of a man who has a reputation for running a terrorist organization and of whom has betrayed me at least twice in the past, as anything other than 'a bad sign'.[/quote][quote]Betrayed you at least twice? When? If you think the collector ship operation was a betrayal then I completely disagree. TIM already explained why he withheld information and is was a good enough reason in my opinion. You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do.[/quote]

I just don't trust people who 'withhold information' like that. I also never got the sense that I was being told the complete picture, I just don't buy it. That's all.

[quote]If you think "secure human dominance" means conquer the galaxy then that is a ridiculous interpretation.[/quote]


Like I said, give another possible definition for 'Securing Human Dominance' and then your argument will have validity. All I saw was the word 'domiance' I.E to 'Dominate'. Which means to rule, and when you are talking about 'the technology in that base could secure human dominance' coming from the voice of the leader of a group famed for terrorism, how do you not respond harshly?

[quote]V-rex wrote...

Plus, if he really cared so strongly for the fate of the Colonies then why opt to save something that was powered by killing those colonies? Okay so maybe it wasn't fueled by human bodies but the primary thing it was creating sure was, many people died to create the human reaper. [/quote][quote]Because TIM, being an intelligent person, obviously realizes that the collector base is good for more than creating reapers.[/quote]


[quote]V-rex wrote...

Yes okay, so the 'gives role to Cerberus thing' was rather overdoing it but the point remains, what exactly could the Collector base be used for to help combat the Reapers? Instead you are talking about handing the reins of a machine that is powerful beyond our understanding to an organization that has proven many times that it cannot be trusted?[/quote]

[quote]The collector base was being used to build your arch-enemies. Naturally, it should have information about how reapers are constructed. That information could be used to figure out how to fight and defeat them.

What I trust TIM to do is work to defeat the reapers.[/quote]

You may but I don't. He always rubbed me off the wrong way (good heavens I hope that's not sexual innuendo), I just never bought that he was doing this out of the kindness of his heart.

[quote]V-rex wrote...

Considering mass producing the Rachni to turn into a single purpose army is very extreme too, as is trying to use the Geth's religion to turn them into a brainwashed army.[/quote]
[quote]I see nothing about using rachni to be extreme. Cerberus is attempting to find a way to use rachni as soldiers so they can save human lives if we ever get into a war. One is coming up pretty fast. Project Overlord had similar intentions, as Archer tells you.[/quote]

The key word there is 'use'. One can argue that Shepard trying to find a peaceful solution to make the Rachni co-operate out of free will is favorable to trying to 'use' them, to me at least that just brings up the image of a group mass producing a race of people to be an army.
Similarly yes, I know about the Overlord thing and that's why I brought it up. Yes it might work but there is still a fair bit of moral ambiguity to it, don't you think? I mean we are still talking about enslavement.


[quote]V-rex wrote...

Seriously though I'd rather not go into debate about this, I heard that in retributution it was reveal that TIM really was planning to continue the Collector research but since there is no proof of that, I'll leave it with this:
The Paragon option was to blow up the base, I play as a paragon.

Poof, that's it. When it all boils down to it.

[/quote][quote]Yes, TIM was planning to restart the collector experiments on a handful of humans. I approve considering we have virtually no options.[/quote]

I argue one must always try to find a more morally right choice, after all if we are ready to go to such cold calculating measures to guarentee our survival, then we destroy the most important part about what makes organics what they are. So really, what's the point?

Call me old fashioned, I'd rather die with honor then live knowing I went to amoral areas to guarentee survival.

[quote]If you blow up the base just because its a paragon option, that is metagaming. People that argue about the collector base decision have no interest in metagaming.
[/quote]

I understand that, but really for me it always felt like the game was telling me the reason. Having now read your response now I understand why you would think the way you do about this matter, but for me the fact that it was considered the 'good thing to do' was enough.
Plus the fact that Martin Sheen., the guy who plays TIM remarked that he wouldn't trust him, was a point in favor to the notion of him being villainous.

Just to be clear, I get that I may have ran my mouth a bit here but the fact remains, I don't trust Cerberus. You do and you seem to have good reason to so let's just agree to disagree.

Sorry if I ever came across as aggressive by the way.

[Inverness Moon]

V-rex wrote...

GOD... F*CKING... DAMN IT!
I never said Cerberus wants to build a Reaper, only that I can't really see much other use other than a Reaper. My point was just that this is technology that is dangerous as we don't fully understand that, and any attempt to further study it might result in some bad repercussions and that I'd rather it be in the hands of someone a little more trustworthy.

Calm down. I wasn't responding to you specifically. That is simply one of the more ridiculous claims that I hear far too often.

Yes reaper technology is dangerous, but you need to overcome it at some point. Preferably, that should be before the reapers arrive in the galaxy. I would give it to Cerberus because TIM has already proven he can make hard decisions. If it turns out our only option to advance our understanding of reaper technology in order to fight them is to experiment on some humans (i.e. Retribution), then I know TIM will do it. The Council and the Alliance won't even ACKNOWLEDGE the threat. I would also be worried that if I gave the base to either of them, action might be bogged down by red tape and infighting over who gets what.

V-rex wrote...

2. The collector base could only be used for building a reaper

Well, give an example of something else it could be used for. Everything in there seemed built solely around the construction of that human Reaper. I didn't see a weapons factory or a data base. So please, I actually mean no offence and probably don't fully understand what I'm talking about here, so if there is anything else in the Collector base please let me know.

The collectors have a history of trading advanced technology to the rest of the galaxy. I think it is safe to assume that this technology comes from the base.

The base has a dock for the collector space ship. It is logical to assume the base is equipped to repair or build new collector ships, which would be valuable information.

Finally, the base was being used to build reapers. It is logical to assume the base has information about the hardware and software that goes into the reaper construction. If we're lucky, we'll be able to use reaper technology to upgrade the Alliance fleets so that their firepower is enough to damage a reaper.

V-rex wrote...

3. You need sacrifices to build a ship as powerful as a reaper using reaper technology

But you just made a justification for the continuation of Cerberus doing Collector experiments on humans arguing that sacrifice was needed. Also, we saw millions of bodies (maybe only hundreds who knows) going in to make that Reaper, from what we know it was made by turning humans into a kind of biological paste.

How can we know for sure that this doesn't work for all forms of Reaper Technology?

The idea that reaper weapons or shields need that organic goo in order to function properly is ridiculous. Reaper technology is not magic. The only explanation for reapers being built using organic goo is that it is part of their twisted idea of ascension, which is what was touched on in the collector base. Organic goo should have no practical application in weapons, shields, or power generation systems.

V-rex wrote...

4. Human dominance means ruling the galaxy

When people hear TIM say "human dominance" and think he wants humans or himself to rule the galaxy or something it is only because they consider him a dumb cliche villain, which he certainly is not.

Give me another defintion for the word 'dominance'. Seriously what other way can you call the word 'dominance' except for superiority, dominance means to dominate and to dominate means to rule and in the context of using a powerful (potentially considered) weapon to do so, claiming to 'secure human dominance' doesn't sound good.

Seriously, give me another context for it and then this can be up to debate.

Superiority as you said. TIM wants humans to be the most powerful force in the galaxy so they're able to best protect their future. Consider the power of the United States after World War 2. Were they not the dominant power on the planet, especially after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

TIM wanting humans to rule the galaxy is simply too illogical to consider. It's quite obvious an attempt at that would just make humans an enemy of the whole galaxy, and it would be foolish to assume we could rule with an iron fist for any length of time if at all.

V-rex wrote...

Also, while Mass Effect may be very well written, it's not without cliches of its own:
"Oh I'm being brainwashed!"
"I am a warrior because I am part of an alien warrior race!"

Seriously, when you do the choice and save the base, he smiles wickedly and gazes at his prize while the screen goes red, sounds like a villanous image to me.

I prefer three-dimensional characters, not one-dimensional villains or heroes. Saying that TIM wants to do something as dumb as conquer the galaxy dumbs down the character. BioWare has said that TIM represents the "best and worst of humanity."

Judging him on his smile at the end is simply ridiculous if you're trying to take things seriously.

[Inverness Moon]

V-rex wrote...

I just don't trust people who 'withhold information' like that. I also never got the sense that I was being told the complete picture, I just don't buy it. That's all.

You don't have to trust them completely. But TIM believed that telling Shepard it was a trap would endanger the mission more than withholding the information. I agree with that, Mordin agreed with it, I don't remember anyone else who did though.

V-rex wrote...

Like I said, give another possible definition for 'Securing Human Dominance' and then your argument will have validity. All I saw was the word 'domiance' I.E to 'Dominate'. Which means to rule, and when you are talking about 'the technology in that base could secure human dominance' coming from the voice of the leader of a group famed for terrorism, how do you not respond harshly?

Explained in my previous post.

V-rex wrote...

You may but I don't. He always rubbed me off the wrong way (good heavens I hope that's not sexual innuendo), I just never bought that he was doing this out of the kindness of his heart.

TIM isn't working to stop the reapers out of the kindness of his heart anymore than Shepard is. They're doing it because humanity and the rest of the galaxy will be wiped out if they don't stop the reapers.

I trust that TIM understands the seriousness of the threat.

V-rex wrote...

The key word there is 'use'. One can argue that Shepard trying to find a peaceful solution to make the Rachni co-operate out of free will is favorable to trying to 'use' them, to me at least that just brings up the image of a group mass producing a race of people to be an army.
Similarly yes, I know about the Overlord thing and that's why I brought it up. Yes it might work but there is still a fair bit of moral ambiguity to it, don't you think? I mean we are still talking about enslavement.

Shepard was the one that met with the rachni queen and either released or killed it based on how you played. Either way, I doubt Cerberus knows about it, and would even change what they were doing either way. From Cerberus's perspective, the rachni were an immense threat to the galaxy that required the krogan to defeat them, if they could turn that force into protection for humanity then they could do a lot of good.

As for Overlord, the heretic geth chose the path that prevented coexistence with organics. If we can brainwash them to make them fight to save lives rather than just killing them, then that would be great, in my opinion.

V-rex wrote...

I argue one must always try to find a more morally right choice, after all if we are ready to go to such cold calculating measures to guarentee our survival, then we destroy the most important part about what makes organics what they are. So really, what's the point?

Call me old fashioned, I'd rather die with honor then live knowing I went to amoral areas to guarentee survival.

What makes you think Cerberus had other options? Even more moral ones? You don't know when the reapers will arrive, so if your only choice to advance is to experiment on humans, you can't just say no and simply wait until you find some other way. Another way might not exist, and if it does, the reapers might get here before you find it.

I don't think that experimentation would destroy what makes us who we are in the least, especially if the person being experimented on volunteered. I applaud Cerberus for being willing (even though the subjects might not always be) to get their hands dirty in order to save humanity when others would stick their heads in the sand and pretend the threat doesn't exist.

Finally, your ideas of honor don't apply to the rest of humanity or even the rest of the galaxy. It isn't just you that the reapers threaten, so you need to decide if your honor is more important than the lives of every sentient in the galaxy.

V-rex wrote...

I understand that, but really for me it always felt like the game was telling me the reason. Having now read your response now I understand why you would think the way you do about this matter, but for me the fact that it was considered the 'good thing to do' was enough.
Plus the fact that Martin Sheen., the guy who plays TIM remarked that he wouldn't trust him, was a point in favor to the notion of him being villainous.

Just to be clear, I get that I may have ran my mouth a bit here but the fact remains, I don't trust Cerberus. You do and you seem to have good reason to so let's just agree to disagree.

Sorry if I ever came across as aggressive by the way.

Just because you don't trust someone doesn't really make them villainous. There are different degrees of trust. I don't much trust the turian councilor. But that just means he is more a bigoted idiot than a villain.

I don't fully trust Cerberus either. But I trust Cerberus to do certain things, and that includes fight the reapers. I haven't been able to trust the Council or the Alliance to do that so far.

[Xilizhra]

I prefer three-dimensional characters, not one-dimensional villains or heroes. Saying that TIM wants to do something as dumb as conquer the galaxy dumbs down the character. BioWare has said that TIM represents the "best and worst of humanity."

This is quite a telling phrase. Those who represent only the worst of humanity are pathetic losers unable to do much of anything (see 4chan's /r9k/). The best and worst, though... great willpower, intelligence and a desire to do well by one's fellows only make it worse when one is also a bigoted megalomaniac with a total lack of moral inhibitions.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's only if you selectively mix good traits with bad actions. We can do it the other way as well: Conrad might be the biggest idiot (bad trait), but he does his best to fill Shepard's shoes (good thing).



TIM's willing to do bad things for selfish reasons. He's also willing to do great things no one else would be willing to do... like, for example, bring Shepard back from the dead to fight the Reapers.

[lovgreno]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

. What's to stop them from doing a remote self-destruct system by the time a science team sets foot on the base, or better yet, doing a "remote indoctrination" so that the base will stay in enemy hands. No priiiize worth the risk here.

At the most, you're looking at derelict reaper level of casualties, a science team, cerberus at that (who cares about them dying right) in the grand scheme of the reaper invasion it's a small price to pay for any potential gain.

No at most you are risking the reaper production to start again. I doubt retaking the base a second time would be that easy. They were planning to target Earth for harvesting and I assume the reapers were smart enough to not equip their Collector cruiser for that unless they had something to back it up. If that happens the galaxys chances of surviving the reaper conflict drops a lot. Is this worth risking for some vague technological advantage that may not even be there?

Modifié par lovgreno, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:57 .

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's only if you selectively mix good traits with bad actions. We can do it the other way as well: Conrad might be the biggest idiot (bad trait), but he does his best to fill Shepard's shoes (good thing).

TIM's willing to do bad things for selfish reasons. He's also willing to do great things no one else would be willing to do... like, for example, bring Shepard back from the dead to fight the Reapers.

Oh, my; now you've got me thinking that Conrad Verner is the Illusive Man's mirror image, in a way...

[Schneidend]

Why is it bad? Because it's a blender, for people, to make Reaper smoothies.



Mass liquidation of tens of thousands of people simply shouldn't be allowed to happen, and the device that makes it possible should be obliterated.

[TuringPoint]

Count Viceroy wrote...

*pretty sure* It was mentioned before Anderson did anything of the sort. I really don't want to go digging through the book....

It was ambiguous enough that you could interpret it either way. 

First it calls him "Admiral," which is fine for him to be Admiral as well as Councilor, and then it says he became a key political representative.  Is that what you're referring to?

Just to point out a couple things to contrast that, though - Udina is called "Ambassador" Udina, as in not Councilor.  So if we're basing this assumption that Udina is canon Councilor, because Anderson is titled "Admiral," then we actually have the same problem with Udina being called "Ambassador".  

Also, instead of "key political representative," if the writer wanted to set up a clear, "this is canon" message, he would've said Councilor or he would've said Councilor's assistant, under Udina.  Which is how the game describes it respective to the choice you make.

People just see "Admiral Anderson" and panic.


The OT:
If we're bringing the book into this, TIM's intentions are clear:  He is going to continue the experiments the Collector's started, despite that being a part of the reason for defeating the collectors.  

Modifié par Alocormin, 16 novembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[BIO18]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's only if you selectively mix good traits with bad actions. We can do it the other way as well: Conrad might be the biggest idiot (bad trait), but he does his best to fill Shepard's shoes (good thing).

TIM's willing to do bad things for selfish reasons. He's also willing to do great things no one else would be willing to do... like, for example, bring Shepard back from the dead to fight the Reapers.

Oh, my; now you've got me thinking that Conrad Verner is the Illusive Man's mirror image, in a way...

Conrad is gona save the galaxy ! I just know it !

[TuringPoint]

I think TIM isn't necessarily aiming to conquer the galaxy, but he'd take an opportunity if he saw it. He is principled in some ways, but I never get a clear impression that he ever knows a limit when it comes to how much power he should have.  

He is an interesting character though. I appreciated the dilemma of having to work with him, and getting to know him and his organization a little better.

I think Shepard can make the "Paragon" choice in this without resorting to considering Cerberus pure evil.  I still find that Dragon Age does a better job of making truly morally ambiguous choices and characters.  

Modifié par Alocormin, 16 novembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's only if you selectively mix good traits with bad actions. We can do it the other way as well: Conrad might be the biggest idiot (bad trait), but he does his best to fill Shepard's shoes (good thing).

TIM's willing to do bad things for selfish reasons. He's also willing to do great things no one else would be willing to do... like, for example, bring Shepard back from the dead to fight the Reapers.

Oh, my; now you've got me thinking that Conrad Verner is the Illusive Man's mirror image, in a way...

This hurts you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alocormin wrote...
The OT:
If we're bringing the book into this, TIM's intentions are clear:  He is going to continue the experiments the Collector's started, despite that being a part of the reason for defeating the collectors.  

The reason the Collectors conducted experiments wasn't to figure out Reaper tech for use against the Reapers and to understand the enemy.

The reason Cerberus got involved to defeat the Collectors was mass abductions of colonies. As this is not happening...



Speaking to the books, the books are an expansion of the universe written assuming that Udina is Councilor and Anderson isn't. That's all. It's not a retcon of your choices if you chose otherwise, it was just something they had to write by in order to flesh out and expand the ME universe as they want.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alocormin wrote...

I think TIM isn't necessarily aiming to conquer the galaxy, but he'd take an opportunity if he saw it. He is principled in some ways, but I never get a clear impression that he ever knows a limit when it comes to how much power he should have.  

Conquest is pretty bad for overall interests, after a point, and the cost is pretty darn high regardless. Domination is cheaper, easier, and even better.

He is an interesting character though. I appreciated the dilemma of having to work with him, and getting to know him and his organization a little better.

I think Shepard can make the "Paragon" choice in this without resorting to considering Cerberus pure evil.  I still find that Dragon Age does a better job of making truly morally ambiguous choices and characters. 

Well, in Dragon Age everyone's an ****, including the good guys.