269 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except Terra Firma demonstrates nothing of the sort. Terra Firma has bigoted people, but that's hardly all it has, and it's party views aren't either.

You can listen to their rally in ME1, and both the codex and Ashley are fairly explicit about their motive decay.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except Terra Firma demonstrates nothing of the sort. Terra Firma has bigoted people, but that's hardly all it has, and it's party views aren't either.

You can listen to their rally in ME1, and both the codex and Ashley are fairly explicit about their motive decay.

Their rally in ME1 is 'Remember Shaxni!', which is hardly racist, and a protest to keep from too much involvement with the Citadel and other races unless it can be done on Alliance terms in ways that won't lead to cultural/military harm for humanity (the Alliance). Again, hardly racist. Nation states have the exact same concerns.

Terra Firma's platform is one that attracts racists and bigots, which is Ashley's dislike, but where else are those racists and bigots going to go? Are they supposed to join the pro-Council parties? That's an absurd assertion on the face of it, so of course not. Saying Terra Firma must be racist because it has racists would be like, oh, saying the Republican Party is a conspiracy movement because Birther conspiracists find their way to Obama's opposition party. It's confusing an element with the whole.

[Xilizhra]

"Remember Shanxi" is just one of their cries; the only other one I remember is "we bleed red," but I think there was "humans only" or something in there as well. It's not just a national thing.



Also, the impression I got is that it consisted almost solely of racists and bigots by this point. Rather like, say, the BNP. It seemed like a relatively small and homogeneous party. But that's neither here nor there.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Remember Shanxi" is just one of their cries; the only other one I remember is "we bleed red," but I think there was "humans only" or something in there as well. It's not just a national thing.

It's xeno-nationalism, not least because the Council enforces a xeno-nationalist structure in the galaxy. Your nation is your species, regardless how divided it is. If you're an exile/not-aligned with your race's dominant power (the Alliance, the Heirarchy), you have no representation with the Council. Humanity, via the Alliance, is effectively a national unit. Nearly all the 'racist' labels that get thrown around about humans being concerned about aliens actually begin from national-based concerns.

Also, the impression I got is that it consisted almost solely of racists and bigots by this point. Rather like, say, the BNP. It seemed like a relatively small and homogeneous party. But that's neither here nor there.

I don't know where you got the impression that's all it was.

[Xilizhra]

It's xeno-nationalism, not least because the Council enforces a xeno-nationalist structure in the galaxy. Your nation is your species, regardless how divided it is. If you're an exile/not-aligned with your race's dominant power (the Alliance, the Heirarchy), you have no representation with the Council. Humanity, via the Alliance, is effectively a national unit. Nearly all the 'racist' labels that get thrown around about humans being concerned about aliens actually begin from national-based concerns.

Is it really enforced? I thought it was a case of each species developing space travel independently and thus already having large monospecies governments before coming into contact with others (the krogan were an exception, and look how that turned out).

I don't know where you got the impression that's all it was.

Previously mentioned sources.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's xeno-nationalism, not least because the Council enforces a xeno-nationalist structure in the galaxy. Your nation is your species, regardless how divided it is. If you're an exile/not-aligned with your race's dominant power (the Alliance, the Heirarchy), you have no representation with the Council. Humanity, via the Alliance, is effectively a national unit. Nearly all the 'racist' labels that get thrown around about humans being concerned about aliens actually begin from national-based concerns.

Indeed, and well said. I agree groups like Terra Nova, and even Cerberus to an extent, are fostered by the fundamentally divisive power structure of the Citadel Council. You are very insightful to note that this racially based system tends to blend legitimate national concerns with illegitimate racial ones.
 
I'd like to add that this is potentially a dangerously unstable system, if it has any real power of government, at least as far as humans are concerned, since a large portion of the human race can truly claim that they have no voice in how they are governed. This disenfranchisement will only fuel extremist groups and sentiments.

Modifié par General User, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[Arijharn]

Changing the subject back a bit to the whole Salarian STG 'simulations are clear' type responses that have been used to justify their decisions re the genophage, to me personally the idea that any simulation was run that could account for all results and permutations is a ridiculous assumption to make. The Salarian's can make informed judgements driven by current norms, but to say that it was complete is incredibly premature to me... it seems to lack some sort of chaos element I suppose.

[Xilizhra]

It isn't like they had anything better to test outcomes with.

[Arijharn]

Is that a rebuttal or just an observation? As a rebuttal it seems pretty weak in all honesty. I can accept that they ran the 'simulations' but to say they were clear, which I interpreted to mean rather exact, seems well, myopic and borderline arrogant actually... especially since it can't actually be something that could be proven (or rather; argued) beyond reasonable doubt.

[Zulu_DFA]

The Krogans aren't hard to figure out.

I think, the whole question for the Council was not about the fear that they might conquer the Galaxy (which they never could, too dumb, not really space-faring), but rather about having to constantly... er... "dispose of" the excesses of their population pushed off their habitation centers, or solving the problem once and for all.

Genophage was the best option. Not a "final solution", but no more hordes of savages constantly trying to pillage some juicy planets.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 12:18 .

[Xilizhra]

Is that a rebuttal or just an observation? As a rebuttal it seems pretty weak in all honesty. I can accept that they ran the 'simulations' but to say they were clear, which I interpreted to mean rather exact, seems well, myopic and borderline arrogant actually... especially since it can't actually be something that could be proven (or rather; argued) beyond reasonable doubt.

Mostly an observation. I don't really see what else they could have done ata the time, however.

[Arijharn]

Oh, I agree the genophage would be the best answer... but it seems like it was the only answer they ever offered, which kinda makes the statement redundant right?



I don't pretend to assume that the decision was made lightly and they certainly couldn't afford much time to weigh the pros and cons and it'd probably be the decision I'd make personally, but I would always wonder if it was the absolute correct one to make. How many options did the Salarians consider? How many of those options discarded before they settled on the genophage? I mean, surely the Salarians may have designed it as a stand off deterent weapon (which doesn't make any sense for them to have developed it like that in the first place considering Salarian military doctrine, and considering what they'd know about Turian military doctrine at the time as well, and the Krogan to boot -- my personal opinion is despite what they may say publicly, the Salarian's fully intended the Genophage to be deployed).

[Zulu_DFA]

No, there was the second best option. Aka total genocide.

Mordin's and his predecessors' simulations indicated that any other "offer" simply wouldn't work.

This is, of course, based on the notion that the Council's objective in the situation was invariable -- pacify the Krogans.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[Arijharn]

But the crux of my argument is thus; it's impossible to account for every possible contingency, therefore to say that all other 'offer's just wouldn't work is premature... even if they thought they were in a corner.



It doesn't really matter though, the Council only really stepped in when the Krogan decided to take an Asari world anyway (and not the multitudes beforehand)

[Zulu_DFA]

They were not in the corner. They didn't really want to genocide the Krogans, but they were tired of keeping them at bay and unhappy with high military spending. So when the genophage was developed they used it gladly.

As for otheer possible contingencies, what do you mean? Barring some miraculous massive insight, the Krogans could not even begin developing any cultural checks for their high birth - low mortality rate before this rate pushed them into another series of global wars resulting in storadic incursions into the Council races' space.

They simply can not naturally develop a successful culture. Definitely not after being messed up by the initial Salarian uplifting.

I bet most of the Mordin's simulations dealt not with the issue of necessity of the genophage as such, but with the exact fertility rate, necessary for maintaining the balance between the Krogans' natural properties and whatever little culture they've begun to develop. One wrong comma, and the population pressure + natural aggression will crush this feeble culture in no time, sending the Krogans a thousand years back to start.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 02:00 .

[CroGamer002]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bigger? I really doubt it; open bigotry against nonhumans is clearly acceptable, considering Terra Firma.

Joram Talid.

Enough said.

[MrFob]

What I don't get is how "genophage re-engineering" and "total genocide" could be the only two options here. As I wrote on the last page, Why not military sanctions?Why not ban them to their homeworld and beny interstellar travel at all if really necessary (it has been done with the yahg, too and much for the same reasons). The Krogan are not a massive force at the moment so why not give them a chance to really work things out on their own terms instead of screwing them over again bid time. The whole simulation argument does not make sense and if there is not a whole lot of information we are not given about the Krogan, it's simply not believable and rather looks wither like a cover up or like massive incompetence or laziness on the part of Mordins team.

[Elite Midget]

It's cheaper, takes less manpower, maintains constant Citadel Race dominance over the Krogan, and easier to keep the Krogan under the Genophage than to do the responsible thing.

I'm sure the Salarians still consider the Krogan as a bad stain on their record for how they turned out. Surprizingly the Salarians weren't punished at all for the Krogan Rebellions while the Quarians were punished severely for the Geth Uprising even though the Geth didn't even bother trying to wipe out the Citadel Races or that territory in Citadel Space. Than again, having more power in the Citadel than the Quarians might have a played a big part in that...

Modifié par Elite Midget, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:12 .

[MrFob]

Well, plus at the time, the Krogan wiped out the Rachni, who were about to kick some **** in Ciradel space. I'm sure that earned the Salarians some credit. I could imagine that were some crazy times and you could get away with a lot of bad stuff. Are we even sure, the Krogan uplifting was a unilateral Salarian decision. AFAIK we just know they were the ones who implemented the plan. Even if that would be documented, I am sure there were some backroom deals and silent consent by the Asari.

To get back to the main point of the thread and to put it in the words of Shepard: If you want a problem shot, ask a turian, if you want a problem talked to death, ask an asari, if you want a NEW problem, ask a salarian ... if you want a problem fixed, ask a human .

[General User]

I suspect the Council settled on the genophage, vice isolating the krogan, because they wanted to keep the krogan around, you know, just in case.



After all the krogan had saved the galaxy from the rachni, and the turians were relatively new. If the turians, for any reason, couldn't hack it as the new military arm of the Council, the Council might have wanted a “backup” on hand.



The Council never saw the krogan as people, more like animals to be exploited. They'd rather have them penned up in pasture where they can be brought back out if needed, than out on their own under any circumstances.

[Xilizhra]

Of course, the krogan did sort of act like animals to be exploited, though the salarians didn't help. It's just a major shame that the turians weren't found instead of the krogan.

[General User]

I believe it was Wrex (I might be mistaken), who said something to the effect of how the krogan are so dangerous precisely because they aren’t unthinking animals. The krogan are people, strong, violent, aggressive, and direct, but still people. Animals don’t split the atom.



What do you think the Council would have done to the turians if they had found them instead?

[Jagri]

It seems that it has been failed to mention that the Citadel Council gave the Krogan conquered rachni planets along with several pristine habitable worlds. They even erected memorials in honor of the part they played. I would say thats pretty far from regarding them simply as animals and tools.



Heh any good zoo keeper knows to keep the animals locked in cages. Thou through aggression and future actions I am sure many came to see them as mindless animals.

[TuringPoint]

General User wrote...

I'd like to add that this is potentially a dangerously unstable system, if it has any real power of government, at least as far as humans are concerned, since a large portion of the human race can truly claim that they have no voice in how they are governed. This disenfranchisement will only fuel extremist groups and sentiments.

Not necessarily.  Only a small percentage of a given population ever acts on a desire for change, much less violent change.  A lot of people won't desire any voice in government if the government doesn't effect their daily lives, and we don't know much the Citadel has control of people's daily lives, vs how much control the Alliance and colonial or nation-state government has over their lives.

I think Cerberus has things covered for extremism on the intergalactic scale.  There could be other groups, but what would those groups concern themselves with?

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:20 .

[Elite Midget]

That's all nice that they gave the Krogan memorials and the such on the Citadel but they didn't give them a Council Seat or even an Embassy. While the Turians got far more when they came to fix the Salarian's problem while the Salarian's didn't get any form of punishment for their failures.