269 réponses à ce sujet

[Zurcior]

I never really approved of Tali's attitude towards the geth. As for that volus who accused the quarian of stealing, I wanted to kick that little bastard over a goal post. Not many people like the turian councilor anyways. My point is it doesn't matter to me what species they belong to. If they do wrong, I'll have a few choice words for them.

[General User]

Jagri wrote...

It seems that it has been failed to mention that the Citadel Council gave the Krogan conquered rachni planets along with several pristine habitable worlds. They even erected memorials in honor of the part they played. I would say thats pretty far from regarding them simply as animals and tools.

That’s exactly how one treats animals. Dole out prizes when they are good, beat them when they get out of line. But the one thing you don’t do with an animal is let them make decisions about how the household should be run, and that's the one thing the Council never did with the krogan.
 

[Elite Midget]

Well, they did uplift the Krogan and than told them to attack the Rachnii. Afterwards they gave the Krogan toys but no real say on the Galactic Matters. When they became a problem they weigned killing them or killing their babies on a constant basis.

[General User]

Alocormin wrote...

General User wrote...

I'd like to add that this is potentially a dangerously unstable system, if it has any real power of government, at least as far as humans are concerned, since a large portion of the human race can truly claim that they have no voice in how they are governed. This disenfranchisement will only fuel extremist groups and sentiments.

Not necessarily.  Only a small percentage of a given population ever acts on a desire for change, much less violent change.  A lot of people won't desire any voice in government if the government doesn't effect their daily lives, and we don't know much the Citadel has control of people's daily lives, vs how much control the Alliance and colonial or nation-state government has over their lives.

I think Cerberus has things covered for extremism on the intergalactic scale.  There could be other groups, but what would those groups concern themselves with?

I sure hope there’s no revolution (violent or even non-violent), at least not in the near future, the last thing the galaxy needs with the Reapers on the way is a potential human civil war.   My point was, the Council is an entrenched, racially-based, plutocracy, and such a system of governance is incompatible in the long term with human sensibilities.
 
Now I think the Council does have power of government because, in the CDN, we read stories that mention Citadel regulations or such on everything from WMDs to consumer products.
 
What I want to know is how are these regulations enacted and implemented? If they are treaties, negotiated in good faith and ratified under the respective laws and/or traditions of the duly constituted governments represented on the Council (as I believe they are), then they may be valid. 
 
Though that does raise the issue of what happens to a race when its Citadel representatives defy or abrogate a Council Convention. To my knowledge the only three that have ever done this are the krogan, the quarians, and the batarians. Who got genophaged, abandoned/threatened with genocide, and shut out (not that they don't deserve far, far worse) respectively.
 
Arguably, Cerberus is simply the best financed and most organized of the human extremist organizations, but they pretty clearly are not the only ones. Other groups would have similar, though probably more narrow goals. Such as, theoretically, a group that supplies human colonies in a given region with weapons, or a group that seeks to implement exclusionary immigration or protectionist tariff policies, that sort of thing.

[MrFob]

mrsph wrote...

Just redid Mordin's loyalty mission. The simulations were about how the krogan's exploding population would result in war and the total genocide of the krogan when the humans and turians retaliated.

Unless the krogan bother to unify their numbers and form a decent government/culture not founded on violence then the risk for curing the genophage is kinda risky.

I'd really like to know what these simulations are founded on. Genocide or a biological weapon? No other choice? Why no implement a quarantine on Tuchanka? Like with the yahg. There are plenty of other solution that would be much more aimed at actually being beneficial for the Krogan. Since the problem doesn't seem to be urgent (from what Mordin tells, there was an increase in Krogan population, not an explosion and you don't evolute out of a disease over just one generation (especially when only one in a thousand children live anyway). I don't put much faith in these "simulations" and while I think Mordin has believes in his own arguments, I don't think he can claim that he was able to consider every contingency.

[Elite Midget]

Cheaper, easier, and less manpower to keep the Genophage, and dance upon the bodies of dead babies, than to place sanctions, quarantines, studies on curbing aggression, or to guide the Krogan past their aggressiveness.

[Jagri]

The Krogan were given access not only to the worlds they took from the Rachnii but also pristine habitable worlds. They were in complete control of how they used their resources and ran there planetary governments. Making it sound as if pristine habitable worlds is a cheap thing thrown about to appease people but such planets likely have trillions of credits worth of raw material and rare elements. Batarian's would even break there ties with the Council because of such resources being taken by the System Alliance.

So how was the Krogans being treated unfairly? Even as there population exploded they were allowed to take more worlds but stepped over the line when they moved to take a Asari colony. The Council ordered them to leave the colony but the Krogan leadership pretty much told them to try and take it from them.

They were part of the Council races... They had a Ambassador... The only thing that can be said is that they did not gain a Council seat. But do you think it would have been wise for the Council to give them a seat?

Modifié par Jagri, 18 novembre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Elite Midget]

Yet they had no say in Citadel Policies and were expected to follow whatever the Citadel Races dictated. An Ambassador doesn't equal the same as being given an Embassy or a Council Seat for saving them all from Extinction. Though my arguement isn't about the First Genophage. AS I said, the Salarians failed the Krogan and the Krogan paid for it.



What I'm against was how for some reason the Sscond Genophage was 'the only way' despite the Krogan no longer being a Galactic threat and the fact that they had more than enough time to come up with more humane solutions. Instead the only things they did were monitering the Genophage and than throwing money at the problem when the Genophage was weakening. Doesn't sound like they even entertained the thought of other options since it was more convient, cheaper, and would require less time just to keep the Genophage as is.

[Jagri]

Codex entry: "However, the actions of some races have led to their embassies being closed; the krogan lost theirs during the Krogan Rebellions"



So the Krogan didn't have a embassy?

[Elite Midget]

I take back the Embassy than. The rest of my arguement still stands.

[Jagri]

So it can be agreed then Korgan was granted respect and honor worthy of there accomplishment during the wars outside of having a seat on a council. Which traditionally took centuries of loyalty and service. Perhaps as a race they were not ready for the responsability and in part the Salarians were to blame that I can agree on.



To conclude the human race making the council in 30 years seems like favoritism to me.

[Elite Midget]

There's a double standard in rewards though...

The Krogan got a few planets after saving them against the Rachnii. Not sure if they got the Embassy when they got Uplifted, during the Rachnii Wars, or after they had won...

While the Turians got a Council seat, were made the Council's Military Arm, and practically took full control of C-Sec(untill humans showed up) for saving the Council Races against the Krogan. Not to mention the other rewards of victory such as planets, Council being more lenient with their expansions, and less restrictive Arms Production.

As for humans... I agree. Their rapid growth reeks of favortism. Though how they handled themselves during the First Contact War might have given them more credit upon their behalf. That and humans hate taking no for an awnser. I feel for the Volus though that have the most reason to resent the rapid popularity of humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

Of course, who the volus hold that resentment against is another question. If you go with a Human Council, there's actually a notable Volus independence movement looking to break from the Heirarchy.

[General User]

Racism is an attitude, not a quantifiable factor, that is, the value of gifts matters infinitely less than the manner in which they are distributed.



Besides, the Council had no right to give the krogan formerly rachni worlds. Those worlds already belonged to the krogan clans by right of conquest. This is less racism than arrogance on the Council’s part. The sheer self-importance it must take for the Council to “deign to give” a world to those who had already bled for it, is staggering.



In the Central Park of New York City there is a statue of Balto the Dog. Balto was a sled dog who, in 1925 saved the children of Nome, Alaska by delivering a diphtheria serum. He was granted respect and honor worthy of his accomplishment, but at the end of the day Balto was still just a dog.



This is similar to how the Council treated the krogan. Whether or not the Council granted respect or honor to the krogan is irrelevant, because at the end of the day the Council still saw them as just krogan.

[Jagri]

Racism is in practice treating people diffirently then you normally would because of race, sex, age, etc.



How did the Council treat the krogan any diffirently then it would have any other race? What has been written here has been that the krogan were not given a fair chance within the galactic community cause the Council was appearently racist towards the krogan.



Yet through the Codex information has been provided they were granted worlds, authority, power, respect, and even admire as heros till they started to invoked violence and conflict against the Council.

[Elite Midget]

Yeah, those are nice but nothin compared to what the Turians got in return for kicking the Krogan to the curb...



First Genophage = Desperation

Second Genophage = Racism and prefering to keep the status que.

[Xilizhra]

This is probably because the turians make a much more disciplined and stable military force than the krogan.

[Exile Isan]

Elite Midget wrote...
Second Genophage = Racism and prefering to keep the status que.

No the STG did it out of fear and guilt. Fear that the Krogan Rebellions would happen again and guilt that it was because of them that they happened the first time around. If they hadn't uplifted the Krogan the Rebellions wouldn't have happened and Mordin even says he blames the Salarians for what the Krogan did and have become and would have argued against uplifting them in the first place, because their culture has stagnated. They are no longer evolving. "We can get that stuff from the Salarians" is what Wrex's head scientist says when you ask him about his latest project that Wrex has him working on: food production, etc. This is the Krogan's problem. They are no longer evolving and until they do the Citadel Council will have to rein them in one way or another and the Genophage seems better than killing them all in my books. Which is why what Wrex is doing is not important to the future of the Krogan. Curing the Genophage will not help the Krogan getting them to evolve again is what will help the Krogan.

And I'm not sure I'd call Mordin racist, more like elitest, thinking the Salarians are smarter and more morally superior to others (just like ever other species in ME thinks their species is the best species evar!). Which you can call him on btw and he agrees that it's "sloppy thinking".

Modifié par Exile Isan, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

New "Cool aliens vs. pesky, evil, and boring humans" poll is up.