269 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

How is it simple? You say Mordin isn't racist yet he generalizes the Krogan in a racist manner/ as a reason to keep them neutered.



You said 1 Tower and 1 Person. I proved you wrong. How is that missing your point when yoiur point was flawed from the start?



You still continue to ignore the VI, that was programmed and ment to follow Council protocul, and the fact that the Volus diplomate is still furious at being treated differently than humanity. Nothing you say can change the fact that the Council sees the Volus as a part of the 'Lesser Races'.



The Quarians still follow Citadel law. There's a reason they don't just colonize any planet outside of the desire to get their old home back. Citadel Law wont let them and their expansions have been limited to just the Migrant Fleet. They're outcasts who have no say in Citadel policy yet are expected to obey it or face military action. Also, the Quarian's 'tried' to kill the Geth when they started showing intelligence. When they failed they askeed the Council for aide to carry out Citadel law which the Council laugh at.

[General User]

Xilizhra, AntiChi5 ILOPC



Once the bullets started flying the opportunity to change was past. Victory, for one side or another was the only option at that point. The Council dropped the ball earlier. By doling out planets like they’re prizes, or treating the krogan like war beasts to be husbanded. The krogan should have been given a seat on the Council directly following the Rachni wars, they had proven their value. Give them a stake in the existing power structure so they won’t (all of them anyway) turn against it.



If the Council was losing, and losing badly, the genophage may well have been a move of desperation. While that doesn’t make the act right, it does make it more understandable thus more forgivable.



Instead of the genophage, why couldn’t the krogan have been treated somewhat like the yahg? You know, confined to their home star system / local cluster.

[Skilled Seeker]

The fact that we are arguing over this shows how complex and rich a game Bioware created.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 16 novembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[joey_mork84]

I agree with the OP to an extent. I wouldn't go as far as to say ALL aliens are racist, but each species has racist/specieist members within them, just as there are racists in every race of the human species. So, as for the general idea behind the OP, yes, all races within the ME universe are racest, IMO, since each one has individuals with racist ideas/feelings toward other races/species. But that's just my opinion.

[Xilizhra]

How is it simple? You say Mordin isn't racist yet he generalizes the Krogan in a racist manner/ as a reason to keep them neutered.

First of all, it's not neutering. Second, considering their inborn rage, they do have some inherent qualities that make them dangerous to others; the bigger problem was the cultural uplifting. Which Mordin blames the salarians for.

You still continue to ignore the VI, that was programmed and ment to follow Council protocul, and the fact that the Volus diplomate is still furious at being treated differently than humanity. Nothing you say can change the fact that the Council sees the Volus as a part of the 'Lesser Races'.

We don't dispute this, we dispute your definition of the term "lesser."

If the Council was losing, and losing badly, the genophage may well have been a move of desperation. While that doesn’t make the act right, it does make it more understandable thus more forgivable.

It would have been doomed without either that or the total obliteration of the krogan.

Instead of the genophage, why couldn’t the krogan have been treated somewhat like the yahg? You know, confined to their home star system / local cluster.

The yahg were caught immediately, before they gained any advanced technology. The krogan already had fleets and modern guns.

[Elite Midget]

The first Genophage was needed because they failed to incorporate the Krogan into Spacefareing life and they didn't really give them a reason to respect the Council. After all, they grabbed the Cavemen Krogan, gave them nukes, and told them to kill. To them that's how the Galaxy worked. If someone threatens you or stops your progress you kill them. Which is how the Krogan reacted when the Council said they expanded far too quickly.



The second Genophage wasen't entirely needed. The Krogan, as a people, are far different than they once were and are more comfortable with Galactic life despite being presecuted as warmongers. This was the golden oppertunity for the Salarians to fix their mistakes and correctly uplift the Krogan. Not to mention modify the Genophage to effect BIRTH RATES and not promote CHILD DEATH RATES.

[primero holodon]

just because the aliens are racist doesn't prove Ashley isn't racist. anyway for the most part I agree that Ashley isn't as bad as some, but she is still a racist, one way or the other, just she is willing to put it past her for the sake of the crew.

[Elite Midget]

If a human says another race is lesser than they're racist.



If the Council says another race is lesser, and prevents them from getting a Council seat, than they're not racist.



Double standard alert!



The Salarians had plenty of chances to uplift the Krogan correctly after neutering them. Instead they kept giving the Krogan more toys while refusing to take responsibility for their failures.

[Elite Midget]

primero holodon wrote...

just because the aliens are racist doesn't prove Ashley isn't racist. anyway for the most part I agree that Ashley isn't as bad as some, but she is still a racist, one way or the other, just she is willing to put it past her for the sake of the crew.

Did you even read the last part of my post?

Ashley hates Cerberus because an they're extremist racist terrorist organization in her eyes and in ME1 she tells Shepard to basically give the Terra Firma Party the bird since they're just a racist political party now. Not to mention that Ashley's Dog and Bear example comes to pass in ME2 when the Council ignores humanity again since it doesn't benefit them.

[Pacifien]

Don't circumvent the swear filter, people. It was placed there for a reason. And keep cool as well. If this argument is sending you into fits of frustration, keep in mind that some (most) battles on the internet cannot be won.

[AntiChri5]

Xilizhra, AntiChi5 ILOPC







Once the bullets started flying the opportunity to change was past. Victory, for one side or another was the only option at that point. The Council dropped the ball earlier. By doling out planets like they’re prizes, or treating the krogan like war beasts to be husbanded. The krogan should have been given a seat on the Council directly following the Rachni wars, they had proven their value. Give them a stake in the existing power structure so they won’t (all of them anyway) turn against it.







If the Council was losing, and losing badly, the genophage may well have been a move of desperation. While that doesn’t make the act right, it does make it more understandable thus more forgivable.







Instead of the genophage, why couldn’t the krogan have been treated somewhat like the yahg? You know, confined to their home star system / local cluster.

The genophage was definately an act of desperation.



I don't think a council seat would have prevented the krogan attempt at galactic domination. Simply would have made it happen quicker. The problem was the uplifting. It was a short term solution with very long term problems.

The krogan just can't play nice. Because anyone who played nice on Tuchanka died. The krogan birthrate and bloodthirstyness mean that for them war is pretty much a lifestyle. The Krogan needed to be that way, simply to survive on Tuchanka.

Taking a species out of a natural environment and introducing it into one that it cannot fit into is always a mistake, and results in that species either dominating or dying out. The krogan would have expanded as far as they could. It is simply their nature, they can't be blamed for it.

The fault lies with the salarians uplifting them.

[Bebbe777]

Elite Midget wrote...

primero holodon wrote...

just because the aliens are racist doesn't prove Ashley isn't racist. anyway for the most part I agree that Ashley isn't as bad as some, but she is still a racist, one way or the other, just she is willing to put it past her for the sake of the crew.

Did you even read the last part of my post?


Ashley hates Cerberus because an they're extremist racist terrorist organization in her eyes and in ME1 she tells Shepard to basically give the Terra Firma Party the bird since they're just a racist political party now. Not to mention that Ashley's Dog and Bear example comes to pass in ME2 when the Council ignores humanity again since it doesn't benefit them.

plus, she is known to have said "Humans or aliens, we are all animals" and that she proudly served with non-humans on the Normandy.

Modifié par Bebbe777, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Elite Midget]

Of course. She doesn't really make it much of an issue with Aliens outside of her concern that Aliens were on the most advanced Alliance Ship in existence thus they might steal technology to benefit their race.

Obviously she doesn't know that the Turians helped to make the Normandy SR1.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:13 .

[Count Viceroy]

Bebbe777 wrote...
plus, she is known to have said "Humans or aliens, we are all animals" and that she proudly served with non-humans on the Normandy.

I dunno, I just took that as PR spinning words.

Elite Midget wrote...


Obviously she doesn't know that the Turians helped to make the Normandy

Funnily enough, so did cerberus in a way.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Elite Midget]

Maybe, though her stance against Cerberus and Terra Firma isn't PR spinning at all.

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

Maybe, though her stance against Cerberus and Terra Firma isn't PR spinning at all.

There's a middle ground between say Kelly chambers "I love everyone and everything" and terra firma racist though. She'd be somewhere in the middle.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:17 .

[Bebbe777]

Joram Talid is a perfect example of an alien racist, he truly hates humans.

Also the Blue Sun batarian in Reveletation that wants to torture a human prostitute because she was human, luckily Saren stepped in.

[ReiSilver]

Elite Midget wrote...

primero holodon wrote...

just because the aliens are racist doesn't prove Ashley isn't racist. anyway for the most part I agree that Ashley isn't as bad as some, but she is still a racist, one way or the other, just she is willing to put it past her for the sake of the crew.

Did you even read the last part of my post?

Ashley hates Cerberus because an they're extremist racist terrorist organization in her eyes and in ME1 she tells Shepard to basically give the Terra Firma Party the bird since they're just a racist political party now. Not to mention that Ashley's Dog and Bear example comes to pass in ME2 when the Council ignores humanity again since it doesn't benefit them.

why do people keep saying that the Council ignored humanity in the second game? The colonies being attacked were in the Terminus System; they had left alliance space willingly, the council has no jurisdiction there. The guy on Horizon says they didn't want the Alliance giving them weapons, they weren't asking for help. IF the colonies had been appealing for help then the council would be ignoring them, but they didn't.
The council ignored Shepard in the second game, not humanity. Moving in the Terminus could provoke war so even when Council/alliance forces did do something it was small scale (Virmire survivor on horizon) and that was on the aliances' initiative.
Human council or no the Council has at least one human chair and humans working in security and likely in many more places they weren't two years ago. The council is far from perfect but humanity is hardly being ignored.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
It would have been doomed without either that or the total obliteration of the krogan.

(snip)

The yahg were caught immediately, before they gained any advanced technology. The krogan already had fleets and modern guns.

In which case Mordin was right, at the time the genophage was the best option available, but ONLY, if the Council was literally on the verge of outright defeat. The genophage was far too serious an option just because the krogan had the potential to win. 
 
As I read somewhere: "Committing genocide just because something might happen is more than the mark of a weak mind. It is insanity."


Can’t put the genie back in the bottle, huh? Very sad… and also true. I hope the Council at least tried though, can’t kill every “Lord High Researcher” but you can at least destroy the krogan fleets and production facilities (assuming you were winning the war to begin with).

[Bebbe777]

"But the Council had taken precautions. The finest STG operators and asari huntresses had been drafted into a covert "observation force", the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance. The Spectres opened the war with crippling strategic strikes. Krogan planets went dark as computer viruses flooded the extranet. Sabotaged antimatter refineries disappeared in blue-white annihilation. Headquarters stations shattered into orbit-clogging debris, rammed by pre-placed suicide freighters. But unlike the Citadel races, the krogan could replenish their numbers very easily and a krogan victory began to seem inevitable.

Finally the Council turned to the turians, newcomers on the Citadel who had a massive fleet and a militaristic culture. Establishing hidden command centres, like Pinnacle Station, turians were able to defeat many krogan bands. But the krogan responded with characteristically horrific attacks on turian worlds, using asteroids as weapons and rendering three planets totally uninhabitable."



"Seeing that the krogan did not generally surrender upon a defeat, and understanding the krogan could effectively call upon limitless reinforcements, the turians contacted the salarians, who had engineered a powerful bio-weapon called the genophage. This was intended to produce a genetic mutation in krogan that could result in only one in one thousand krogan births being a success.

The salarians had never intended to use the genophage and planned to use it as a deterrent. But once the turians received the genophage, they deployed it, and krogan numbers began to dwindle"

[trobbins777]

I think we are all forgetting the real victim here.



Human racists.

[Elite Midget]

I agree with that. The Genophage was needed the first time because of a number of failures that followed. However, the second Genophage was only used because they wished to keep the 'satus que' and not take responsibility for the Krogan.



Humanity is ignored when they're in trouble yet they're welcomed if it makes the Councli stronger. Funny, huh?

[InHarmsWay]

Why couldn't the Salarians use a Hormone bomb? A virus that lowers the hormones that makes the Krogan super aggressive and maybe even rid them of the blood rage.



Anything but a damn miscarriage bomb.

[Bebbe777]

Mordin is very open to diplomatic talks with the Krogan and he would love if the Krogan unites under a single banner. With Wrex this might happen and then the genophage could be altered to Turian/Salarian/Human birth rate.